David Denton

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Someone other than me must be worried that he's just going to drop off the radar towards the end of this season and next season? He couldn't have known the circumstances at the time but his move to Bath looks like a huge mistake at the moment.

I think this dilemma says more about Bath than it does about Denton so what on earth are they doing at no 8? He'll be competing against Faletau/Mafi and Houston. Houston is pretty unlucky not to have picked up an Aussie cap but that is effectively 3 internationals contending for no 8 at any given time Best case scenario he is second choice no 8. No disrespect intended to Denton but Faletau is world class and Mafi is the incumbent right now.

I suppose the timing could be worse as Strauss is developing into a contender, Du Preez will qualify, Ashe is coming back and Bradbury had a stormer last night.

[Which Tyler]

Pretty huge mistake for Bath as well.
Basically we panicked when Redacted left; and Denton's head was turned by filthy lucre.

On merit - he'd be our 3rd choice #8 currently, and I think you'd struggle to find a Bath fan who'd rather keep Denton next year than Mafi or Houston (let alone Faletau)

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Pretty huge mistake for Bath as well.
Basically we panicked when Redacted left; and Denton's head was turned by filthy lucre.

On merit - he'd be our 3rd choice #8 currently, and I think you'd struggle to find a Bath fan who'd rather keep Denton next year than Mafi or Houston (let alone Faletau)

I agree with you. Denton is just not consistent enough - for club or country.

Is that auto correct there? Who left?

Is Houston not contracted beyond this year then? I was under the impression there were three of them next year.

[Which Tyler]

I agree with you. Denton is just not consistent enough - for club or country.

Is that auto correct there? Who left?

Is Houston not contracted beyond this year then? I was under the impression there were three of them next year.

There was a certain rugby league star we signed from Australia, who decided that he didn't want to play club rugby, only international; and bugger off back to where he came from; resulting in 2 players leaving the club, a few others being messed around positionally, and a mad scramble for any backrower who might happen to be free mid-season.

Houston is in contract for next year - but Cheika is dangling the possibility of caps in front of his nose and asking him to come home. We're also in negotiations with Mafi over a new contract, but with our hands tied on what we can offer him whilst Denton takes a huge portion of our salary cap (basically, he's massively over-paid as he negotiated from a position of strength whilst Bath were desperate).

[hp18]

How likely is Ford to survive the current mess?

[Which Tyler]

Basically, only Brucie can answer that; fans can only give their opinion of what they'd do were they Bruce.

My personal feeling is that last season we overacheived by a couple of places in the league; whilst this year we've underacheived by 3-4 places; so any good will from previous seasons has been used up - but not particularly far into the red.
I'd be sounding out some options, just gathering a little info; and giving Ford a full pre-season and 2-3 months of next season to show if he can work his way out of this. The squad is more-or-less intact from last and will be again next; I think the dip is 90% mental (about 10% injuries and pure luck).
If the players can spend a couple of months on the beach, and the coaches a couple of months with the analysts; and get a decent pre-season together to go through new ideas etc; then the talent is still top-4 level (well, 2-5) and we should bounce straight back up. If he can't do that, then he has to go.

Of course, there are rumours that part of the problem is that he may have lost the dressing room - or sections of it at least; in which case that's a big mark against him, and I'd be looking to get rid and promote from within for a season.

[Big D]

I agree with you. Denton is just not consistent enough - for club or country.

Is that auto correct there? Who left?

Is Houston not contracted beyond this year then? I was under the impression there were three of them next year.

There was a certain rugby league star we signed from Australia, who decided that he didn't want to play club rugby, only international; and bugger off back to where he came from; resulting in 2 players leaving the club, a few others being messed around positionally, and a mad scramble for any backrower who might happen to be free mid-season.

Houston is in contract for next year - but Cheika is dangling the possibility of caps in front of his nose and asking him to come home. We're also in negotiations with Mafi over a new contract, but with our hands tied on what we can offer him whilst Denton takes a huge portion of our salary cap (basically, he's massively over-paid as he negotiated from a position of strength whilst Bath were desperate).

Good for him Was there any word on what sort of fee Bath paid Edinburgh? Would there be any salary cap issues if Bath paid him off and he became a free agent?

In many ways this was a perfect storm doomed to fail, Bath needing a player and panicking a little, World Cup year meaning Denton had no real off season, moving clubs after the WC in a rush rather than a planned move etc. That doesn't excuse a lot of his recent form though.

Someone I know went to the game at the weekend and said he did well off the bench. Not sure how accurate that is though.

[Which Tyler]

Oh, almost forgot, in Bath's #8 fiasco this season. We were expecting Faletau to be joining us after the RWC, and had completed negotiations etc with him and Dragons; which was part of the reason Priestland (temporarily) retired from international window - so that TF didn't have to worry about Gatland's Law. Of course, when that fell through, we signed Mafi - not so much panic there, but more a "who's left available" one - one which worked out much better all around than the Denton move.

Good for him Was there any word on what sort of fee Bath paid Edinburgh? Would there be any salary cap issues if Bath paid him off and he became a free agent?

In many ways this was a perfect storm doomed to fail, Bath needing a player and panicking a little, World Cup year meaning Denton had no real off season, moving clubs after the WC in a rush rather than a planned move etc. That doesn't excuse a lot of his recent form though.

Someone I know went to the game at the weekend and said he did well off the bench. Not sure how accurate that is though.

Absolutely good for him; and poor form by Bath who did exactly the same thing with Donald (except that Carter was "on the verge of signing" with us and hadn't actually arrived). I guess we don't learn.
No idea on transfer fee - but Bath wouldn't need to pay Denton to quit, just pay the transfer. Transfer fees paid to a club don't come under the salary cap; but those paid to or through a player do. So in your hypothetical, there could be issues; but that hypothetical would be pointless all-round.

As for his performance against Sarries... err... Denton's performance was about the last thing I was looking for, sorry.

[Big D]

No idea on transfer fee - but Bath wouldn't need to pay Denton to quit, just pay the transfer. Transfer fees paid to a club don't come under the salary cap; but those paid to or through a player do. So in your hypothetical, there could be issues; but that hypothetical would be pointless all-round.

As for his performance against Sarries... err... Denton's performance was about the last thing I was looking for, sorry.

My questions were sort of separate, although connected as they still refer to the signing of Denton.

I thought transfer fees to clubs cam under the cap, if they don't then that question was answered. I wasn't sure if the fee did come under the cap whether or not it was split over the initial contract period or whatever. Anyway, question answered.

WRT the hypothetical part of my question. I am not sure how "pointless" it would be. You have already said Denton is a big cap hit, so given Talupe is coming , you say Bath are trying to negotiate with Mafi and Houston is under contract so is getting rid of Denton that pointless? At that point, I assume Denton wouldn't just say "ok no hard feelings" but rather his agent would be looking for some sort of pay off for the player given he could sit tight and earn a bigger sum where he is. There is no way a player would walk away from guaranteed money without either having a similar contract to go to or some sort of pay off. Say he is on £250k (for arguments sake), he could agree to leave for £75k and thus freeing up salary cap space for more useful players (in the Bath scheme of things) that could help your first choice XV. I take it then the £75k, in this example, is what would need to count under the cap.

[Which Tyler]

Sorry, I'd misunderstood your question - I thought you were still talking about his departure from Edinburgh - enticing him to break contract and become a free agent to avoid paying Edinburgh.
For Bath doing that to our own - not our style (and would come out of the salary cap). We tend to send players off for a "season-long loan" to take them outside (or partially so) the cap, whilst playing for someone else - assuming we can't find another club (usually French, has been Japanese) to take transfer the player to.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Looks like Denton's chances of game time appear a bit brighter next year as it does not look like Mafi will be returning to the club.

http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Bath-Rug ... story.html

[Which Tyler]

Mafi was only ever going be coming over as 6N cover for future years anyway.

However, DD has shown glimpses of what we were hoping to see when he joined us - looks like he just took a while to find his feet at a new environment - highlighted by how quickly Mafi adapted.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Mafi was only ever going be coming over as 6N cover for future years anyway.

However, DD has shown glimpses of what we were hoping to see when he joined us - looks like he just took a while to find his feet at a new environment - highlighted by how quickly Mafi adapted.

It looks a little rosier but I still think it's a terrible move for him now that Faletau is confirmed. Not even in my wildest dreams does Denton come close to the ability of Faletau. He'll always be second choice or a blindside with him at the club.