Argentina Tour Review

[Scrumhead]

I know I created the 'catch-all' thread, but now the tour has concluded, I think the talking points deserve a thread of their own. This might be a long one ...

Positives:

1. Two wins. Given the comparative levels of test experience in the two squads, 2-0 is a brilliant result. I thought we were the better team in both and deserved winners.

2. George Ford. Massively stepped-up. Two top-drawer, mature performances that underlined his class. He showed improved game management and excellent decision-making and kicked very well which makes a very nice change!

3. The emergence of new players. One of Eddie's main aims for the tour was to find '3 or 4' players who could emerge as genuine contenders for the EPS. That objective has certainly been achieved and possibly surpassed.

Negatives:

1. Nitpicking a little here, but with the exception of Ford and Brown, our backs were poor in the second test. Lots of handling errors and some poor decision-making.

2. Missed opportunities with some players. Eddie has earned my trust, but I can't help feeling that Maunder could have got more minutes for example.

Potential EPS Ins and Outs:

Ins: Collier, Williams, T. Curry, Underhill, Wilson, Francis, Lozowski (I know he was in the wider EPS before, but he was uncapped).

Outs: Slade. IMO, he's competing for one spot with Lozowski and Francis. Both played better.

Player Reviews/Ratings:

Don Armand - Short cameo off the bench and limited opportunity to shine. - 6
Mike Brown - Overall a good tour. Probably MOM in the second test and seems to have learned how to pass! - 7
Danny Care - Good in the first test, OK in the second. Service to Ford was decent and good support play bagged him another try - 7
Joe Cokanasiga - DNP
Will Collier - Made a noticeable contribution in both appearances. Rock solid in the scrum and worked-hard. - 7
Ben Curry - DNP
Tom Curry - Excellent debut. Outshone Underhill. - 8
Nathan Earle - DNP
Charlie Ewels - Good tour. Very solid in the set-piece and worked hard in the loose. Looked like he had more caps than he does. - 7
George Ford - Great tour. Showed his class and stepped-up as a leader. - 9
Jamal Ford-Robinson - DNP
Piers Francis - Mixed bag of a tour. Great cameo and two assists in the first test followed by a try and a howler in the second. - 7
Ellis Genge - Did OK but didn't shine as expected and needs to make sure discipline stays in check. - 6
Dylan Hartley - Decent, but not faultless set-piece. Awful carrying. OK at best. - 5
Nathan Hughes - Good tour. Looked much more at home, worked hard and gave us the go-forward we needed. - 7
Nick Isiekwe - Limited opportunity, but immediately looked very comfortable when he came on in the first test. - 6
Sam James - DNP
Joe Launchbury - Always excellent. - 8
Alex Lozowski - Made good quality contributions in both games. Certainly did himself no harm. - 7
Harry Mallinder - DNP
Jack Maunder - Good cameo off the bench in the first test. Didn't look overawed and probably deserved to play in the second test. - 7
Jonny May - Two good games without being outstanding. - 7
Matt Mullan - Solid cameos off the bench and shored-up the scrum. - 7
Chris Robshaw - Always excellent. - 8
Jack Singleton - DNP
Denny Solomona - Great try. Woeful defence. Looks out of his depth for now. - 5
Henry Slade - From the sublime to the ridiculous. Showed his class in the first test but was woefully poor in the second. - 5
Sam Underhill - Did OK, but didn't live up to the hype and was nowhere near as eye-catchingly effective as Tom Curry. - 6
Mark Wilson - Arguably the discovery of the tour IMO. Seamless transition of his Premiership form to the test stage. - 8
Harry Williams - Decent without being spectacular. Worked hard but second best in the scrum. - 6
Marland Yarde - Played well in the first test but very poor in the second. Did nothing to enhance his reputation or silence his critics. 6

[Tigersman]

Honestly i don't think Mullan shored up the scrum that much, collier made the bigger impact.

Look at the scrum in the 1st test @ 59mins (1:04:02) Mullan, Hartley and Williams got their heads shoved up there arses.

What it showed to me is that Williams isn't ready yet and that Collier set piece is massively better and i think that benefited Mullan alot more.


(Also you forgot Williams).


not sure how you can rate a player who played 3 mins (Isiekwe,

[Scrumhead]

Good point on Williams ... I'll add him in.

Re. The rating for Isiekwe, the same would apply to Maunder. Both came on and performed their roles well.

Isiekwe called and took the lineout, contributed to a very solid final scrum and showed neat hands in the build up to Solomona's try. He deserves credit for all of that.

Maunder showed good composure and accurate, quick service.

[fivepointer]

2 wins is a fantastic achievement. Whats pleasing about the wins is that they could very easily have been defeats. The side could have crumpled when behind and under pressure, but they showed tremendous resilience and determination to come through on both occasions. Thats going some for a very inexperienced team playing away from home against good standard opposition.
We scored some cracking tires and, at times, played some very fine rugby.
I'd go along with Scrumheads player assessments.
The new players generally stood up. Not all were instantly test stars, though there wasnt anyone who played who I dont want to see involved in the squad in the future.
The experienced players were a bit of a mixture, ranging from excellent (Launch and Robshaw) to a little underwhelming (Hartley and a 1st test Brown)
The undoubted star turn was Ford, who showed his class and composure throughout.
Next up was Wilson. Its really pleasing he got his chance and performed so ably. He should be an EPS cert. The 2 TH's did fine in very contrasting ways. Williams needs to work on his scrummaging to add to his excellence in the loose, while Collier needs to do a bit more outside the set piece.
For those who didnt feature at least Eddie has had the chance to have a good look at them. Most are young enough to come into contention at some stage, but that may not be for a while.
Overall Eddie will be very pleased.

[Mikey Brown]

Again with the two assists for Francis??? Anyway, he did look pretty handy. What was the howler in the second test? I've only seen the highlights.

Equally a shame to hear Slade was poor, saw two knock ons but one seemed like a very unsympathetic offload from Genge at first glance. He looks at this stage like he's really going to stall if he doesn't nail down a position and add some consistency/speciality to his game.

I think we should be very happy overall and am pleased with some of the depth we appear to now have in my areas, though a couple retain the same question marks. I really hope the coaches look at the contributing factors in Ford's performance and keep getting him the ball and letting him play like that. A bit more balance and cohesion outside Ford playing like that, with the pack we've built, will be able to take on anyone.

Oh and the Hask should pretty much be done.

[Banquo]

Again with the two assists for Francis??? Anyway, he did look pretty handy. What was the howler in the second test? I've only seen the highlights.

Equally a shame to hear Slade was poor, saw two knock ons but one seemed like a very unsympathetic offload from Genge at first glance. He looks at this stage like he's really going to stall if he doesn't nail down a position and add some consistency/speciality to his game.

I think we should be very happy overall and am pleased with some of the depth we appear to now have in my areas, though a couple retain the same question marks. I really hope the coaches look at the contributing factors in Ford's performance and keep getting him the ball and letting him play like that. A bit more balance and cohesion outside Ford playing like that, with the pack we've built, will be able to take on anyone.

Oh and the Hask should pretty much be done.

well if you have seen the highlights you'd have spotted Francis's woeful chip that was blocked and Argentina scoring the consequent try. Slade was poor. Having two distributors in midfield wasn't a good look, and I thought the argentine centres more impressive.

[Blandy]

Outs: Slade. IMO, he's competing for one spot with Lozowski and Francis. Both played better.

Seems like Eddie might agree as both Lozowski and Francis are name checked in this article

[Banquo]

Outs: Slade. IMO, he's competing for one spot with Lozowski and Francis. Both played better.

Seems like Eddie might agree as both Lozowski and Francis are name checked in this article

so is Nathan Earle.....

[Stom]

Outs: Slade. IMO, he's competing for one spot with Lozowski and Francis. Both played better.

Seems like Eddie might agree as both Lozowski and Francis are name checked in this article

so is Nathan Earle.....

I'm sure I've missed someone, but I've only managed to get 43 names onto a sheet...

Hartley, George, LCD, Taylor
Marler, Mako, Genge, Mullan
Cole, Sinckler, Williams, Collier
Launch, Itoje, Ewels
Kruis, Lawes
Robshaw, Wilson
Underhill, TCurry, BCurry
BillyV, Hughes, Clifford
Youngs, Care, Maunder
Ford, Farrell, Lozowski
Francis, Slade, Te’o
Joseph, Marchant, Daly
May, Nowell, Yarde, Solomona
Brown, Watson

Who else would you have, who could realistically challenge?

[Digby]

Hill, Beaumont, Harrison, Morgan, Robson, Simpson, Cipriani, Burns, Manu, Jones, Roko, Wade

[Scrumhead]

Seems like Eddie might agree as both Lozowski and Francis are name checked in this article

so is Nathan Earle.....

I'm sure I've missed someone, but I've only managed to get 43 names onto a sheet...

Hartley, George, LCD, Taylor
Marler, Mako, Genge, Mullan
Cole, Sinckler, Williams, Collier
Launch, Itoje, Ewels
Kruis, Lawes
Robshaw, Wilson
Underhill, TCurry, BCurry
BillyV, Hughes, Clifford
Youngs, Care, Maunder
Ford, Farrell, Lozowski
Francis, Slade, Te’o
Joseph, Marchant, Daly
May, Nowell, Yarde, Solomona
Brown, Watson

Who else would you have, who could realistically challenge?

Challenge for the new EPS or challenge for the World Cup squad?

I could see Clifford losing out to Armand in the short term and Mercer in the longer term.

Tuilagi has to be a possible - even if it is a long shot.

Haley is perhaps another that could be in contention. He was good against the Barbarians and was unlucky to lose out on the Argentina tour.

Possibly Stuart Townsend?

[Scrumhead]

Hill, Beaumont, Harrison, Morgan, Robson, Simpson, Cipriani, Burns, Manu, Jones, Roko, Wade

Hill, Manu and Jones maybe yes, but Cipriani and Wade? Surely you can't seriously believe that? Whether you agree with him or not, there is absolutely NO chance either will feature under Eddie.

The others like Beaumont, Harrison, Morgan and Roko have all had chances under Eddie. If they were serious options, they'd have been involved in Argentina.

Burns is an interesting one - if he has another season like he did last time out, he could put himself in contention. Particularly if Farrell is rested after the Lions.

[Mikey Brown]

Again with the two assists for Francis??? Anyway, he did look pretty handy. What was the howler in the second test? I've only seen the highlights.

Equally a shame to hear Slade was poor, saw two knock ons but one seemed like a very unsympathetic offload from Genge at first glance. He looks at this stage like he's really going to stall if he doesn't nail down a position and add some consistency/speciality to his game.

I think we should be very happy overall and am pleased with some of the depth we appear to now have in my areas, though a couple retain the same question marks. I really hope the coaches look at the contributing factors in Ford's performance and keep getting him the ball and letting him play like that. A bit more balance and cohesion outside Ford playing like that, with the pack we've built, will be able to take on anyone.

Oh and the Hask should pretty much be done.

well if you have seen the highlights you'd have spotted Francis's woeful chip that was blocked and Argentina scoring the consequent try. Slade was poor. Having two distributors in midfield wasn't a good look, and I thought the argentine centres more impressive.

Absolutely. I've been banging on about getting Slade in to the centres as much as anyone but alongside Ford and another 10/12 is far from ideal. Seems a shame f that was the chance he got and now he's out of the EPS but there you go.

I think I actually attributed that misplaced chip to Slade. They look irritatingly similar in the pitch if you're not paying enough attention.

[Digby]

Hill, Beaumont, Harrison, Morgan, Robson, Simpson, Cipriani, Burns, Manu, Jones, Roko, Wade

Hill, Manu and Jones maybe yes, but Cipriani and Wade? Surely you can't seriously believe that? Whether you agree with him or not, there is absolutely NO chance either will feature under Eddie.

The others like Beaumont, Harrison, Morgan and Roko have all had chances under Eddie. If they were serious options, they'd have been involved in Argentina.

Burns is an interesting one - if he has another season like he did last time out, he could put himself in contention. Particularly if Farrell is rested after the Lions.

Cips and Wade have talent, and you never know when injury might give them chance, and that talent could allow them to make something of it. Some others you dismiss have already featured under Eddie, so there has to be a chance they'd feature again

[Scrumhead]

Hmm ... nah ...

Tom Wood has shown that a player can come back from the dead under Eddie, but he's the exception rather than the rule.

Eddie seems happy to give players a chance, sometimes even a second chance (Harrison for example), but I very much doubt there will be a third one.

Cipriani, Wade and Morgan could add a lot to the England squad, but their faces very obviously don't fit. TBH I'm amazed that you genuinely seem to believe otherwise despite all the evidence to the contrary?

[Puja]

Seems like Eddie might agree as both Lozowski and Francis are name checked in this article

so is Nathan Earle.....

I'm sure I've missed someone, but I've only managed to get 43 names onto a sheet...

Hartley, George, LCD, Taylor
Marler, Mako, Genge, Mullan
Cole, Sinckler, Williams, Collier
Launch, Itoje, Ewels
Kruis, Lawes
Robshaw, Wilson
Underhill, TCurry, BCurry
BillyV, Hughes, Clifford
Youngs, Care, Maunder
Ford, Farrell, Lozowski
Francis, Slade, Te’o
Joseph, Marchant, Daly
May, Nowell, Yarde, Solomona
Brown, Watson

Who else would you have, who could realistically challenge?

They're not who I'd have, but I'd imagine Eddie's probably including everyone in the current EPS in that 60, so Wood, Haskell, Harrison, Hill, etc.

Puja

[Stom]

so is Nathan Earle.....

I'm sure I've missed someone, but I've only managed to get 43 names onto a sheet...

Hartley, George, LCD, Taylor
Marler, Mako, Genge, Mullan
Cole, Sinckler, Williams, Collier
Launch, Itoje, Ewels
Kruis, Lawes
Robshaw, Wilson
Underhill, TCurry, BCurry
BillyV, Hughes, Clifford
Youngs, Care, Maunder
Ford, Farrell, Lozowski
Francis, Slade, Te’o
Joseph, Marchant, Daly
May, Nowell, Yarde, Solomona
Brown, Watson

Who else would you have, who could realistically challenge?

They're not who I'd have, but I'd imagine Eddie's probably including everyone in the current EPS in that 60, so Wood, Haskell, Harrison, Hill, etc.

Puja

Well, we know he has, despite the obvious fact someone like Singleton is nowhere near test rugby (yet).

But for the squad, who else would you have?

Jones, yes. I forgot him So 44. Who's the 45th? Burns? Tuilagi?

[Oakboy]

It's often interesting to look at the team units as well as individuals:

Front row - 7
2nd row - 8
Back row - 8
Half backs - 8
Centres - 5
Back three - 6

That's my first thought.

It is quite encouraging to be competitive in the front row against a 1st choice Argentinian unit. The 2nd row included our best lock, IMO, in Launchbury and the fact that the unit put in that level of performance just confirmed it.

According to many, we have only one quality backrower, Billy V. I'd say we have grounds for optimism now, with or without Billy. Hughes is getting better by the game.

Ford was excellent despite Care but the performance of the backs as a whole was erratic, good at times, ropy at others. Maybe, the service could have been better, then? That's hard to rationalise with Ford's performance. Maybe, they were too busy defending. Brown's superb catch that turned defence into attack in the 2nd game gives food for thought. Is that our most important area to improve?

[Digby]

8 for the back row and halves over two games seems too much. The handling errors gave the back row problems getting into the match in the 2nd test maybe, but even just the first test we got knocked off our own ball a lot and okay Hughes ran a lot, but Hughes was quieter in the 2nd test even before the assault on his knee. And Ford was excellent, but Care would be dragging the score for the halves down to a 7 for my money.

[Oakboy]

8 for the back row and halves over two games seems too much. The handling errors gave the back row problems getting into the match in the 2nd test maybe, but even just the first test we got knocked off our own ball a lot and okay Hughes ran a lot, but Hughes was quieter in the 2nd test even before the assault on his knee. And Ford was excellent, but Care would be dragging the score for the halves down to a 7 for my money.

I wouldn't argue with any of that. I'm still confident that Hughes can get better, mind. He baled the scrum out several times and just looks comfortable at test level.

[bitts]

The big question seems to be "what does Eddie actually want?"

If he's genuinely looking to play an all court game with as much emphasis on attack as defense, then the Hask's days are numbered. Wilson and T Curry have shown they are more rounded players than him, and Robshaw is just better.

If he genuinely wants a running threat at 12 Faz may also be under pressure if Ford keeps kicking like he has been as Faz, for all his improvements, just doesn't have the same range of skills. If he wants to playmakers the. It will probably​ stay as Ford/Faz as no-one else has really put their hand up. And unless one of Slade, Last or Mallinder starts the season with a bang I can't see anyone taking his place.

Brown and Hartley, you'd think, would also be under pressure. They are both solid, but don't offer as much as others around the park.

If he wants to play a safety first, pressure based game, then all will probably stay on.

[Banquo]

The big question seems to be "what does Eddie actually want?"

If he's genuinely looking to play an all court game with as much emphasis on attack as defense, then the Hask's days are numbered. Wilson and T Curry have shown they are more rounded players than him, and Robshaw is just better.

If he genuinely wants a running threat at 12 Faz may also be under pressure if Ford keeps kicking like he has been as Faz, for all his improvements, just doesn't have the same range of skills. If he wants to playmakers the. It will probably​ stay as Ford/Faz as no-one else has really put their hand up. And unless one of Slade, Last or Mallinder starts the season with a bang I can't see anyone taking his place.

Brown and Hartley, you'd think, would also be under pressure. They are both solid, but don't offer as much as others around the park.

If he wants to play a safety first, pressure based game, then all will probably stay on.

Eddie wants to win....don't think he is especially dogmatic about how.

[bitts]

The big question seems to be "what does Eddie actually want?"

If he's genuinely looking to play an all court game with as much emphasis on attack as defense, then the Hask's days are numbered. Wilson and T Curry have shown they are more rounded players than him, and Robshaw is just better.

If he genuinely wants a running threat at 12 Faz may also be under pressure if Ford keeps kicking like he has been as Faz, for all his improvements, just doesn't have the same range of skills. If he wants to playmakers the. It will probably​ stay as Ford/Faz as no-one else has really put their hand up. And unless one of Slade, Last or Mallinder starts the season with a bang I can't see anyone taking his place.

Brown and Hartley, you'd think, would also be under pressure. They are both solid, but don't offer as much as others around the park.

If he wants to play a safety first, pressure based game, then all will probably stay on.

Eddie wants to win....don't think he is especially dogmatic about how.

Well yes, but what does he think best the style of play is to win a world cup with the players available?

[Oakboy]

Will Maunder and T'eo get the chance to cement places? One of Farrell or Ford plays at 10, clearly, but can the need for both decline in Eddie's mind? A 12 that carries well and a 9 that gives quality service has to make him think, surely?

[Puja]

I wouldn't argue with any of that. I'm still confident that Hughes can get better, mind. He baled the scrum out several times and just looks comfortable at test level.

He did look very impressive indeed and his carrying was much improved. Although I'm fairly certain that the rest of his 8 might point out that he wouldn't've had to bale them out if he'd bothered pushing at a scrum or two!

Puja