RugbyRebels

As with locks, there is a double-length shortlist for this one and you can vote for two players.

There are a couple of points to note. Tana Umaga actually has the 8th most starting caps in the pro era as an All Black wing (24) but I've decided there should be no double ups. Technically, his replacement should be Ben Smith as he has had more starts on the wing (21) than as a fullback (20). However, I have no doubt that by the end of his career (in fact by the end of November) the Accountant will be statistially as well as in reality primarily a fullback. So I will include him in the fullback poll. It is still permissible to nominate him as your "other" of course.

This is a very hard choice. Wilson was a hero of mine when I lived in Otago, but was never head and shoulders above his peers. Lomu's greatness needs no explanation but I'm going to be hard-headed and say we cannot carry a player who is not fully fit and is therefore suspect on scramble defence. Sivivatu and Jane, both excellent players, just don't have the strike rate that the best have. That leaves Savea, who I'll take as my power winger on the left, and a toss-up between Howlett and Rokocoko on the right. Personally, I preferred watching Roks than Dougie but the latter's 47 tries in 58 tests has to put him ahead of the former's 46 in 68. Both tailed off somewhat near the end of their respective 7-year careers, but Roko more so than Howlett.

In my case, I'm looking at more than just strike rate.

As great as Lomu was, he is also somewhat a victim of the era he played in, when wingers weren't expected to do much besides run and score, so in a head-to-head with a similar type in Savea, I'm going to go with Shag and say "Savea is better," largely because Savea not only has a comparable strike rate, but also brings the skills required of a modern winger to the table.

On the other end, I'm going with Jane because he was actually a very good defensive winger and a highly underrated defensive organiser who is safe as houses under the high ball as well. You could argue that Howlett and Wilson might have pioneered the "fullback on the wing" trend, much like McDowall and Dave Latta pioneered the "mobile front-row forward" trend, it's Jane that set it in stone in this country, IMO and paved the way for the current set-up of Ben Smith and Israel Dagg alternating on the wing/fullback spots.

Jane on the right wing for his ball skills, his Hercules-like fend and his role in setting the standard for the current two-fullbacks model. On the left wing I'll throw away the obnoxious bludgeoning style of Lomu and Savea in favour of Ben Smith, the paper cut rapier. Also I'll be voting Cullen on the fullback poll, and we have to have the Accountant in there somewhere.

Scotty Stevenson on his podcast hit the nail on the head on the eve of the Super Rugby final - looking at the team sheets, the Hurricanes missed Cory Jane more than anyone realised and his elevation to the starting XV, primarily at 11 was absolutely vital in shutting down the key attack weapon of the Springboks.

zer0 wrote:Jane on the right wing for his ball skills, his Hercules-like fend and his role in setting the standard for the current two-fullbacks model. On the left wing I'll throw away the obnoxious bludgeoning style of Lomu and Savea in favour of Ben Smith, the paper cut rapier. Also I'll be voting Cullen on the fullback poll, and we have to have the Accountant in there somewhere.

The two-full backs model did make me wonder whether there should be just one poll for the entire back three. I should say that a player can only be in the XV in one position. If a player is voted into two positions then I will put him in the postion where he gained proportionally the most votes.

Lomu and Wilson for me. You can speculate about how Lomu would have gone in the 2010s, but he can only truly be judged on how he went when he was actually playing, in the late 90's/early 2000's. And he was amazing enough on attack to be given something of a pass on his clumsy defence, imo.

Wilson was a great FB-style winger. A terrific all-round skill-set.

Lomu the clear stand out for me, it's not even close. Would he hold up as much in today's era? Probably not, but it doesn't matter. He did things others couldn't at the time.

Funnily enough most will know I have always preferred rounded, FB-style wingers, but seeing the list I've gone for Lomu and Rocko. If I was picking an actual team to play I wouldn't, you want balance on one wing so I would go for Jane or Wilson. But as individuals I think Lomu and Rocko deserve it.

It's always an interesting one these polls. I think this one in particular confirms a recency bias, for me. Rugby is constantly improving, players are fitter and better than they were in yesteryear.

But we can only judge them on when they played. I'm actually quite astounded Savea is rated higher than Lomu.

Is he a better winger? Probably. Does he deserve to be an all time great ahead of Jonah? Absolutely not.

Hmm. It's currently the Jonah and Julian show. Although that would be terrifying for any opposition it is a teensy weensy bit unbalanced. Perhaps I should have done seperate "power wing" and "fullback-type wing" polls? I did think about that but some are hard to classify in that way (eg Rokocoko)

You still can divide them by the type of winger, if you want.

Power/left winger: Rokocoko, Savea, Sivivatu, Lomu
Skills/right winger: Howlett, Jane, Wilson, Gear

Just select whoever comes out tops in those two groups for each position.

Was Roko really a power winger?


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Henry was willing to build an attack game around Sivivatu, which isn't nothing. Nor of course are cases of domestic abuse nothing so the list is a touch worrying.

Lizard wrote:Was Roko really a power winger?


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Should've said "strike/left winger". I was confounded by your magical lawyering powers.

Not possible to select 2 out of these guys.
I know Lomu is not the complete winger for some but for me he is the best. From then too many world class players to select one...

I had no idea you guys rated Corey Jane so highly, I always really liked him but didn't think he'd eceb be in the reckoning. It's crazy the list you've got. Most countries would kill for the two lowest scorers here.

I think to dismiss Lomu based on the opposition in his era is also dismissing what modern coaching/conditioning/tech etc. could get out of him now.

Mikey Brown wrote:I had no idea you guys rated Corey Jane so highly, I always really liked him but didn't think he'd eceb be in the reckoning. It's crazy the list you've got. Most countries would kill for the two lowest scorers here.

I think to dismiss Lomu based on the opposition in his era is also dismissing what modern coaching/conditioning/tech etc. could get out of him now.

Cory Jane was part of the solution to a real problem we had, which was a succession of wingers who were not great under the high ball and struggled to return a kick. The high kick had become the attacking weapon of choice for our opponents. The Jane/Dagg "Bomb Squad" not only solved this problem, but was the genesis of the "two fullbacks" system that effectively gives us 2 fullbacks (or 3 if 10 drops back) to retrieve kicks and three wingers to then counterattack. Jane was instrumental in converting a weakness into what is now one of our most potent weapons within the the "triple threat" arsenal.

In the modern era, Lomu would probably be put in the Robbie Fruean basket - enough talent but chronic health issues mean he cannot be an All Black.

Lizard wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I had no idea you guys rated Corey Jane so highly, I always really liked him but didn't think he'd eceb be in the reckoning. It's crazy the list you've got. Most countries would kill for the two lowest scorers here.

I think to dismiss Lomu based on the opposition in his era is also dismissing what modern coaching/conditioning/tech etc. could get out of him now.

Cory Jane was part of the solution to a real problem we had, which was a succession of wingers who were not great under the high ball and struggled to return a kick. The high kick had become the attacking weapon of choice for our opponents. The Jane/Dagg "Bomb Squad" not only solved this problem, but was the genesis of the "two fullbacks" system that effectively gives us 2 fullbacks (or 3 if 10 drops back) to retrieve kicks and three wingers to then counterattack. Jane was instrumental in converting a weakness into what is now one of our most potent weapons within the the "triple threat" arsenal.

In the modern era, Lomu would probably be put in the Robbie Fruean basket - enough talent but chronic health issues mean he cannot be an All Black.

Todd Blackadder has signed him up for Bath in Engrand (Blackadder is coaching there).

We should start a pool for his chances of ending up in the England squad at 12.

Can we have Coles? How is the hooker poll going?

For me it has to be jonah. It's not the power highlights, it the ones where he scores through pure pace. The guy was just amazing on attack and if any team can afford to carry one suspect defender it's nz.

Went for Savea and Lomu. Savea is more rounded than some people think, more rounded than Lomu anyway. Jane was close to taking Lomus spot to he honest and after Jane it would have been Goldie.

Jane and Sivi for me, but was a tough one, could have picked almost any two on that list and made a case for it.

There's a weird lack of love for Dougie Howlett, given that he's the NZ record holder for most tries in a career.

Can you imagine other countries thinking as little of their own record holders (Habana, Campese, Shane Williams, Underwood, O'Driscoll, for example)?

You could forgive the Scots for it. Their top try scorer is still Ian Smith (24 tries, 1924-1933).

In the pro era I'd go with Savea, having voted for Lomu already, but I can't get over my enduring admiration for Tuigamala even tho he doesn't qualify.

As a matter of interest, the All Blacks seem to have a long-term policy of combining power/strike wingers with slick finishers. I'd like to see two power exponents starting in the same team. I think we've seen the other possibilities.