RugbyRebels

Keeping track of the results. Voting remains open so this is subject to change.

1. T. Woodcock (50%)
2. S. Fitzpatrick (63%)
3. C. Hayman (35%)
4. B. Retallick (75%)
5. S. Whitelock (56%)
6. J. Kaino (52%)
7. R. McCaw (84%) (C)
8. K. Read (56%)
9. A. Smith (85%)
10. D. Carter (86%)
11. J. Lomu (65%)
12. M. Nonu (100%)
13. C. Smith (87%)
14. J. Savea (43%)
15. C. Cullen (88%)

Coach: S. Hansen/G. Henry (46% each)

Come on mate. Put the locks the right way round at least.

I actually think Olo would have preferred Retallick behind him.

Well... yeah.

Doesn't Brodie pack down on the right as a no.4 typically does?

I get particular players have preferences for a shirt but they're not even the ones Metallic/Whitelock wear anyway are they?

Trying to pick wholes in your actual team is difficult so just let me have this one, please.

Heh. You have to change this because of my votes.

Len wrote:Heh. You have to change this because of my votes.

Let me guess. You've gone and voted for 2nd place in every position?

OK, I've switched the locks to stop the whining,

I've also updated to reflect recent votes - the big news is that Franks has overtaken Brown at tighthead.

I have to say, I'm very reluctant to refer to Sean Fitzpatrick as a player of the pro era*, when he hardly played a full season outside of the early days of professionalism.


*Also, what's with "pro era?" It seems to imply that it will go back to amateurism at some stage in the future.

cashead wrote:I have to say, I'm very reluctant to refer to Sean Fitzpatrick as a player of the pro era*, when he hardly played a full season outside of the early days of professionalism.


*Also, what's with "pro era?" It seems to imply that it will go back to amateurism at some stage in the future.

Drawing hard and fast lines for players that played as (sh)amatuer and as pros is difficult. The approach I took (anyone who played as a pro is eligible, but shortlisting requires being in the top 4 in terms of starting caps from 1996) seems a fair compromise (and is also technically easy given the database I am working from). You don't have to agree.

For the record, 18 (i.e. 20%) of Fitzy's starts (and 1 bench appearance) were in 1996-97. By comparison, Coles (4th place) has 31 starts, Hammet (6th) had 9.

Wholes.

HaHa.

Updated again. Zinzan and Kieran now tied on 45% each.

Ma'a is on an unprecedented 100% with 4 votes so far. No doubt the joker that's voted for Hore, Cane, So'oialo, an unspecified "other" as lock, etc will be along shortly to fuck that up, too.

Lizard wrote:Updated again. Zinzan and Kieran now tied on 45% each.

Ma'a is on an unprecedented 100% with 4 votes so far. No doubt the joker that's voted for Hore, Cane, So'oialo, an unspecified "other" as lock, etc will be along shortly to fuck that up, too.

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Looks weak.

It is interesting how many current players, barely halfway through their careers, are making the list. I'm not sure whether that is recency bias or whether, as results suggest, this is rightly the best side by a country mile. At the moment any player coming in looks a world beater; I do wonder how some players of yesteryear would have fared in such an amazing system.

jared_7 wrote:
It is interesting how many current players, barely halfway through their careers, are making the list. I'm not sure whether that is recency bias or whether, as results suggest, this is rightly the best side by a country mile. At the moment any player coming in looks a world beater; I do wonder how some players of yesteryear would have fared in such an amazing system.

For me it's also interesting how many players are on the list that I don't think of as particularly great (e.g. Marshall apart, I didn't think much of most of the 9s beyond Smith) - just a tribute to the All Blacks that they are consistently the best team. So you may be right, if the system has continued to improve then maybe some of the also rans might have surprised us. In any case, it's really been a pretty great era for rugby - just a pity the other teams aren't taking the hint.

jared_7 wrote:Looks weak.

It is interesting how many current players, barely halfway through their careers, are making the list. I'm not sure whether that is recency bias or whether, as results suggest, this is rightly the best side by a country mile. At the moment any player coming in looks a world beater; I do wonder how some players of yesteryear would have fared in such an amazing system.

Bear in mind this is only players from the last 20 years. Current players in the XV are:

Owen Franks: 28 years old, test debut 2009, 86 caps
Brodie Retallick: 25 years, debut 2012, 56 caps
Sam Whitelock: 27 years, debut 2010, 81 caps
Jerome Kaino: 33 years, debut 2004, 74 caps
Kieran Read: 30 years, debut 2008, 93 caps
Aaron Smith: 27 years, debut 2012, 50 caps

Of those, you could only seriously say Retallick and perhaps Smith are less than half way through their test career, and Smith plays in a position in which NZ has been notoriously poor for as long as I can remember.

It is interesting to ponder how previous players would have fared in the current set up - some better, some worse I would guess. It will require some distance for history to judge how much of the recent results are the All Blacks playing "techno-flow Star Wars rugby"* and how much is Aussie and SA being a bit shit.

*Thank you Mick Cleary http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/ ... emulate-n/

Mr Mwenda wrote:

jared_7 wrote:
It is interesting how many current players, barely halfway through their careers, are making the list. I'm not sure whether that is recency bias or whether, as results suggest, this is rightly the best side by a country mile. At the moment any player coming in looks a world beater; I do wonder how some players of yesteryear would have fared in such an amazing system.

For me it's also interesting how many players are on the list that I don't think of as particularly great (e.g. Marshall apart, I didn't think much of most of the 9s beyond Smith) - just a tribute to the All Blacks that they are consistently the best team. So you may be right, if the system has continued to improve then maybe some of the also rans might have surprised us. In any case, it's really been a pretty great era for rugby - just a pity the other teams aren't taking the hint.

With Halfbacks, NZ went through a period where they preferred their HBs to act as "4th loose forwards" - I was never a fan of the ploy, and I think it is why many on the international stage won't view them as greats. But they did do things other HBs couldn't; they weren't small, they never got tossed around like some of the NH scrum halves and in fact were quite bruising, and they were tremendous at securing ball at ruck time without support. And Marshall did it for a long time - I think he is rightly up there.

Plus Byron Kelleher was nailing a porn star whilst living in the Tron.

Lizard wrote:Updated again. Zinzan and Kieran now tied on 45% each.

Ma'a is on an unprecedented 100% with 4 votes so far. No doubt the joker that's voted for Hore, Cane, So'oialo, an unspecified "other" as lock, etc will be along shortly to fuck that up, too.

I voted for Hore, clearly stated my reasoning, and stand by my decision. Cane, So'oialo and unspecified "other" at lock are not my doing.

J Dory wrote:

Lizard wrote:Updated again. Zinzan and Kieran now tied on 45% each.

Ma'a is on an unprecedented 100% with 4 votes so far. No doubt the joker that's voted for Hore, Cane, So'oialo, an unspecified "other" as lock, etc will be along shortly to fuck that up, too.

I voted for Hore, clearly stated my reasoning, and stand by my decision. Cane, So'oialo and unspecified "other" at lock are not my doing.

Good to know.

jared_7 wrote:

Mr Mwenda wrote:

jared_7 wrote:
It is interesting how many current players, barely halfway through their careers, are making the list. I'm not sure whether that is recency bias or whether, as results suggest, this is rightly the best side by a country mile. At the moment any player coming in looks a world beater; I do wonder how some players of yesteryear would have fared in such an amazing system.

For me it's also interesting how many players are on the list that I don't think of as particularly great (e.g. Marshall apart, I didn't think much of most of the 9s beyond Smith) - just a tribute to the All Blacks that they are consistently the best team. So you may be right, if the system has continued to improve then maybe some of the also rans might have surprised us. In any case, it's really been a pretty great era for rugby - just a pity the other teams aren't taking the hint.

With Halfbacks, NZ went through a period where they preferred their HBs to act as "4th loose forwards" - I was never a fan of the ploy, and I think it is why many on the international stage won't view them as greats. But they did do things other HBs couldn't; they weren't small, they never got tossed around like some of the NH scrum halves and in fact were quite bruising, and they were tremendous at securing ball at ruck time without support. And Marshall did it for a long time - I think he is rightly up there.

I do also think that people are far too quick in dismissing the quality of halfbacks that came before Aaron Smith. I admit I did vote for Smith, but as you said, Marshall was doing stuff that few other halfbacks could manage at a time, and the fact that it ushered in a new type of halfback mould for the All Blacks speaks volumes about how valued what he brought to the table was.

Weepu's another example of a 4th loose forward type halfback, but his kicking game was incredible, and when he was fully fit, he was easily a world class player. I'd say that he was comfortably the best 9 in the world in 2006, and he ended up being just as important to the All Blacks as Richie McCaw was in 2011, when Carter got invalided out of the tournament.

morepork wrote:Plus Byron Kelleher was nailing a porn star whilst living in the Tron.

Was only a mullet away from true greatness.

Teamsheet has been updated. Snakey screams in at centre. Hayman makes a late bid for the tight head spot and the winger poll is underway.

EDIT: I've also recalculated the percentages for wingers and locks to provide a fair comparison given that you can vote twice.

In a way I'm surprised Umaga doesn't get in, maybe if hed played more at 12 with Smith or was he just not all that?

Mikey Brown wrote:In a way I'm surprised Umaga doesn't get in, maybe if hed played more at 12 with Smith or was he just not all that?

Umaga was a centre (13) not a second five-eighth (12). He might have started one or two tests at 12 but not enough to be a "great" in that position.

I'm always mystified at the rest of the world doggedly refusing to adopt a fairly old positional innovation that helps NZ be the best in the world, and continuing to lump 12 & 13 together as "centres."