New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[twitchy]

From C Morgan's team of the season:

15 . George Furbank
Northampton Saints

There are going to be some difficult omissions and Tyrone Green is desperately unlucky. Elliot Daly spurred Saracens down the home stretch, too. Furbank edges it thanks to a seminal season in which he has complemented intuitive link play and slicing angles with added toughness in the contact area for Saints.



14 . Immanuel Feyi-Waboso
Exeter Chiefs

Tom Roebuck has been prolific for Sale Sharks and must be close to Test match involvement. Joe Cokanasiga was resurgent. Neither can upstage the breakthrough star of this season, who has quickly become a talisman for Exeter on both sides of the ball. Explosive, strong and growing into the nuances of defensive decision-making and back-field positioning, Feyi-Waboso has a fascinating future ahead.


Immanuel Feyi-Waboso - Premiership team of the season: Immanuel Feyi-Waboso the breakout star in peculiar campaign
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso broke into the Exeter Chiefs team, the England XI – and is Telegraph Sport's breakout player of the year Credit: Getty Images/David Rogers

Picking a team of the season is tricky at the best of times, let alone on the back of a wildly unpredictable and generally peculiar Premiership campaign.

Even 18 rounds have not been enough to work out how good some teams are. But someone has to put their head above the parapet, and here is a selection to get stuck into …
15 . George Furbank
Northampton Saints

There are going to be some difficult omissions and Tyrone Green is desperately unlucky. Elliot Daly spurred Saracens down the home stretch, too. Furbank edges it thanks to a seminal season in which he has complemented intuitive link play and slicing angles with added toughness in the contact area for Saints.
14 . Immanuel Feyi-Waboso
Exeter Chiefs

Tom Roebuck has been prolific for Sale Sharks and must be close to Test match involvement. Joe Cokanasiga was resurgent. Neither can upstage the breakthrough star of this season, who has quickly become a talisman for Exeter on both sides of the ball. Explosive, strong and growing into the nuances of defensive decision-making and back-field positioning, Feyi-Waboso has a fascinating future ahead.

13 . Henry Slade
Exeter Chiefs

Ollie Lawrence and Benhard Janse van Rensburg have been viewed solely as outside centres, because that is where they are at their best. Rob du Preez was terrific as well, and Tommy Freeman seemed at home in midfield. But none of these contenders presented a case quite as compelling as that of Slade. Exeter ended up in seventh, but laid some exciting foundations over an admirable campaign. Slade shepherded younger colleagues wonderfully.


12 . James Williams
Bristol Bears

I wanted to recognise Bristol’s late surge, which was inspired by intrepid attack and almost stole a play-off place. Williams, who has settled at Bristol after bouncing between several clubs, was an assured playmaker and, eventually, a sure-fire starter for the Bears during a purple patch. Fraser Dingwall, Cameron Redpath and Nick Tompkins deserve name-checks, too.


11 . Ollie Sleightholme
Northampton Saints

The free-spirited Gabriel Ibitoye slipped tackles and offloaded in thrilling fashion, with Will Muir another devastating wide man. Sleightholme’s catalogue of 14 tries featured some stunners. He is a skating sprinter who runs clever support lines but is powerful enough to smash through tacklers as well.


10 . Fin Smith
Northampton Saints

After a long flip-flop between two Fin(n)s, I have opted for the 22-year-old Saint over the Bath and Scotland sorcerer. Russell has been majestic, and will have a big say on the play-offs. Smith is an unfussy facilitator who keeps things ticking and allows runners around him to exploit space. George Ford, a senior figure in the same mould, steered Sale to the semi-finals.


Immanuel Feyi-Waboso - Premiership team of the season: Immanuel Feyi-Waboso the breakout star in peculiar campaign
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso broke into the Exeter Chiefs team, the England XI – and is Telegraph Sport's breakout player of the year Credit: Getty Images/David Rogers

Picking a team of the season is tricky at the best of times, let alone on the back of a wildly unpredictable and generally peculiar Premiership campaign.

Even 18 rounds have not been enough to work out how good some teams are. But someone has to put their head above the parapet, and here is a selection to get stuck into …
15 . George Furbank
Northampton Saints

There are going to be some difficult omissions and Tyrone Green is desperately unlucky. Elliot Daly spurred Saracens down the home stretch, too. Furbank edges it thanks to a seminal season in which he has complemented intuitive link play and slicing angles with added toughness in the contact area for Saints.
14 . Immanuel Feyi-Waboso
Exeter Chiefs

Tom Roebuck has been prolific for Sale Sharks and must be close to Test match involvement. Joe Cokanasiga was resurgent. Neither can upstage the breakthrough star of this season, who has quickly become a talisman for Exeter on both sides of the ball. Explosive, strong and growing into the nuances of defensive decision-making and back-field positioning, Feyi-Waboso has a fascinating future ahead.
13 . Henry Slade
Exeter Chiefs

Ollie Lawrence and Benhard Janse van Rensburg have been viewed solely as outside centres, because that is where they are at their best. Rob du Preez was terrific as well, and Tommy Freeman seemed at home in midfield. But none of these contenders presented a case quite as compelling as that of Slade. Exeter ended up in seventh, but laid some exciting foundations over an admirable campaign. Slade shepherded younger colleagues wonderfully.
12 . James Williams
Bristol Bears

I wanted to recognise Bristol’s late surge, which was inspired by intrepid attack and almost stole a play-off place. Williams, who has settled at Bristol after bouncing between several clubs, was an assured playmaker and, eventually, a sure-fire starter for the Bears during a purple patch. Fraser Dingwall, Cameron Redpath and Nick Tompkins deserve name-checks, too.
11 . Ollie Sleightholme
Northampton Saints

The free-spirited Gabriel Ibitoye slipped tackles and offloaded in thrilling fashion, with Will Muir another devastating wide man. Sleightholme’s catalogue of 14 tries featured some stunners. He is a skating sprinter who runs clever support lines but is powerful enough to smash through tacklers as well.
10 . Fin Smith
Northampton Saints

After a long flip-flop between two Fin(n)s, I have opted for the 22-year-old Saint over the Bath and Scotland sorcerer. Russell has been majestic, and will have a big say on the play-offs. Smith is an unfussy facilitator who keeps things ticking and allows runners around him to exploit space. George Ford, a senior figure in the same mould, steered Sale to the semi-finals.

9 . Ben Spencer
Bath

There is less of a need to run through alternative contenders here, because Spencer has been sublime as a linkman between Bath’s burly forwards and their precocious back division. His kicking game is a nightmare for opposing back-three players and his sheer speed makes things happen. As captain, Spencer will be stressing that Bath are not finished yet.



1 . Fin Baxter
Harlequins

Having featured in all 18 league matches for Harlequins, either starting or as a replacement, Baxter seems set to tour with England and should make a Test debut. He is mobile, dexterous and stubborn in the set-piece exchanges. Bevan Rodd and Beno Obano both enhanced their reputations, as did Phil Brantingham, bound for Saracens from Newcastle Falcons.

2 . Curtis Langdon
Northampton Saints

A decent season for hookers across the board will have buoyed Steve Borthwick. Gabriel Oghre, Luke Cowan-Dickie and Theo Dan were all prominent for different reasons, with Jamie Blamire among Newcastle’s stand-outs. Langdon, resourceful and athletic, has hit the ground running for Northampton and looks right at home.


5 . Joe Batley
Bristol Bears

Among the first names on this team-sheet, Batley ran the Bristol line-out and enjoyed a career-best campaign, showing himself to be a skilful, versatile attacker and a set-piece technician. Bristol’s maul was an effective tool throughout the year. Comfortable both when linking phase-play in midfield and when roaming wider, Batley scored four Premiership tries. Alex Coles was another Saint to come close, as was Charlie Ewels of Bath.


7 . Sam Dugdale
Sale Sharks

Will Evans ruled the jackal statistics and Sam Underhill improved as a breakdown threat, which will not have gone unnoticed by Borthwick. Dugdale nips in for his part in Sale’s play-off push. Combative, crafty and relentless, the 24-year-old deputised for Tom Curry with distinction.
8. Alfie Barbeary
Bath

Arguably the most open position is saved until last. Even for the basement teams, Zach Mercer, Jasper Wiese and Callum Chick had their moments. Alex Dombrandt and Jean-Luc du Preez were both consistently influential. Greg Fisilau and Ross Vintcent are seriously promising. Barbeary’s propensity for big plays – turnovers and tries, chiefly – came to the fore in a crucial win at Sandy Park in April.

[Scrumhead]

Not sure how much credence to give to this: https://www.planetrugby.com/news/re...c ... ing-threat

Not for me thanks.

[FKAS]

It's already disappeared.

Was it the South Africans England were allegedly chasing? If so then I wouldn't pay much attention to it as it names Hanro Liebenburg who's tied to South Africa. There's no insight into Shiny Baldspot's thinking.

[Puja]

It's already disappeared.

Was it the South Africans England were allegedly chasing? If so then I wouldn't pay much attention to it as it names Hanro Liebenburg who's tied to South Africa. There's no insight into Shiny Baldspot's thinking.

He is? Is that because he was in the U20s back when that was their capture team?

I read that article earlier (and the cavalcade of whining from Saffer fans in the comments - they really have no ability to win graciously) - it had about as much factual basis as the average Wales Online article. Named Liebenberg, Vermeulen, BJVR, and Green, but was entirely speculation.

Not sure how much credence to give to this: https://www.planetrugby.com/news/re...c ... ing-threat

Not for me thanks.

If, come a year and bit's time, Green and BJVR both feel like England is their second home and they'd be proud to represent us, then I wouldn't necessarily turn them down, but it seems cheap to be planning it in advance and I'm hoping that we'll have outgrown the need for them by that point.

Puja

[FKAS]

It's already disappeared.

Was it the South Africans England were allegedly chasing? If so then I wouldn't pay much attention to it as it names Hanro Liebenburg who's tied to South Africa. There's no insight into Shiny Baldspot's thinking.

He is? Is that because he was in the U20s back when that was their capture team?

I read that article earlier (and the cavalcade of whining from Saffer fans in the comments - they really have no ability to win graciously) - it had about as much factual basis as the average Wales Online article. Named Liebenberg, Vermeulen, BJVR, and Green, but was entirely speculation.

Not sure how much credence to give to this: https://www.planetrugby.com/news/re...c ... ing-threat

Not for me thanks.

If, come a year and bit's time, Green and BJVR both feel like England is their second home and they'd be proud to represent us, then I wouldn't necessarily turn them down, but it seems cheap to be planning it in advance and I'm hoping that we'll have outgrown the need for them by that point.

Puja

Yes, I believe that Liebenburg was captured when he captained the Baby Boks at the JWC when they played another under 20s side (iirc France) that had nominated the under 20s as their second side.

I'll be more than a little surprised if Green isn't capped at some point this season. BJVR well, I'd quite happily see him convert as he'll not get a look in with the Boks and he's just class.

[FKAS]

Update re Liebenburg, the author of the article reached out to World Rugby who have clarified that as far as they are confirmed after 60 months he could be EQ.

[Puja]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... r-england/

If anyone began their rugby-playing life as a centre in the Oxfordshire area during the noughties, they have my profoundest sympathies. That is because they would have lined up against Alfie Barbeary: then a centre for Banbury RFC and the nearby Bloxham School, now a brutish No 8 for Premiership side Bath.

With the way Barbeary, 23, plays the game – carrying the ball with the ferocity of a bull which has sat on a wasp – the heart bleeds for those Oxfordshire teens. But the journey from junior centre to professional No 8 came alongside a large period at hooker, with the eventual move to the back row spearheaded by then Wasps head coach Lee Blackett – now Barbeary’s attack coach at Bath – against the wishes of then England head coach Eddie Jones.

“At the first training session with the academy, they had a counties tournament and picked boys up from there,” Barbeary tells Telegraph Sport. “I got picked and moved up a year group – in my first session. I was a flanker/centre at the time and they turned around to me and asked, ‘What position are you?’ I told them and they just said, ‘No, you’re a hooker’. From there I had to learn to scrummage and throw. I got to Wasps and they didn’t trust my throwing. They said they wanted to play me but they didn’t think, if the game was on the line, that they could trust me to throw in. It was a fair point. They moved me to the back row for a few games but I was still training as a hooker. Lee gave me the offer of staying as a back-rower and becoming Wasps’ No 8.

While England head coach, Eddie Jones advised Barbeary to revert to hooker.

“We had a meeting and Eddie said you can either choose hooker – but you have to want to play there – and you can be one of the best in the world, or you can be a mediocre back-rower in the Premiership. I didn’t really know what to say to that. I spoke to my dad and we decided what will be, will be. I enjoy playing a lot more at back row than hooker and if I’m going to make something of my career I need to be able to enjoy it.”

‘Touring New Zealand is a dream’

As he relaxes at an opulent dining table among the neo-gothic architecture of Bath’s Farleigh House training base, there really does not seem much by way of mediocrity about Barbeary. In a Bath puffer jacket, with signet ring on finger, hoop in ear, Ugg slippers on feet, Barbeary could easily pass as the earl of Farleigh House. Certainly, on the field, the No 8 has developed into rugby royalty; a crucial cog in Bath’s tilt at a first Premiership title of the professional era. Had Barbeary not copped a ban which coincided with Steve Borthwick naming his England squad for the Six Nations, there is a chance that this season could have been yet more regal. The word is that the uncapped Barbeary was to be included but, instead, had to make do with a spot in the England A squad for their match against Portugal. Still, there is a tour to New Zealand on the horizon.

“Before the Six Nations, Steve and I went for a coffee just outside of Combe Down,” says Barbeary. “He told me what he wanted from me and asked me if I’d be able to do it, and stay fit all season. And then go from there. I told him I’d do my best and then unfortunately I went and shot myself in the foot. But, he was complimentary, told me what he wanted me to work on – I’d only played a couple of games at that point – and set me a goal to work towards. It was good to meet him and have some contact with England. At the beginning of the season, I felt like I was out of the picture; I almost felt a bit forgotten about. It was good to get that meeting in and have a good conversation. We’ve stayed in touch; little bits here and there.

“[Touring New Zealand] would be huge, one of the days you dream of. I don’t want to get ahead of myself too much as we still have a semi-final to play. I’m very much still in semi-final mode. I know that if I perform for Bath and we perform well, everything will fall into place.”

Borthwick’s penchant for a super-strength could not lend itself more favourably to Barbeary’s route-one approach. The No 8, unashamedly, likes carrying the ball hard. As well as the medical facilities and Johann van Graan’s vision, it is what attracted him to Bath – their need for a player to run into other players and go forward. And when Barbeary lists his rugby idols – “Ma’a Nonu, Manu Tuilagi and Mathieu Bastareaud” – it is hardly surprising that he favours the more agricultural side of the sport.

“One of my mates at Wasps told me that I was made out of Play-Doh – and you can’t break Play-Doh,” says Barbeary. “That has always stuck in my head. No matter if I get hit, it’s a bit like Play-Doh – not going to break. I’m a very upright carrier which I’ve had to work on a bit, with more and more boys going in low, fighting that. I’ve always been an upright carrier, squeezing and wriggling out of tackles. I’ve adapted my game a bit and with that you’re getting fewer shots in the ribs.

“I’m always looking to improve and maybe be more agile and drop a bit of weight. But, for me, this season has been about getting back fit, getting a good run of games and starting to enjoy rugby again – injury-free. As my fitness has come on, I’m starting to get more agile, starting to gain more confidence. At the start of the season, I was hesitant to step off my right knee. It was heavily strapped and I was nervous about it. With that, I just wanted to get back playing and, once you get the wheel’s turning, your game improves.”

That it has; far beyond mediocrity.

Interesting article, suggesting that hooker was never something he particularly enjoyed, not ever had the nuts and bolts for. Some high-grade man-management from Eddie in there as well - "Do as I say or else you'll just be mediocre." Great thing to say to a teenager.

Puja

[Adam_P]

Surely he'd have been 9 or younger in the noughties? Can't have been that fearsome a centre

[Scrumhead]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... r-england/

If anyone began their rugby-playing life as a centre in the Oxfordshire area during the noughties, they have my profoundest sympathies. That is because they would have lined up against Alfie Barbeary: then a centre for Banbury RFC and the nearby Bloxham School, now a brutish No 8 for Premiership side Bath.

With the way Barbeary, 23, plays the game – carrying the ball with the ferocity of a bull which has sat on a wasp – the heart bleeds for those Oxfordshire teens. But the journey from junior centre to professional No 8 came alongside a large period at hooker, with the eventual move to the back row spearheaded by then Wasps head coach Lee Blackett – now Barbeary’s attack coach at Bath – against the wishes of then England head coach Eddie Jones.

“At the first training session with the academy, they had a counties tournament and picked boys up from there,” Barbeary tells Telegraph Sport. “I got picked and moved up a year group – in my first session. I was a flanker/centre at the time and they turned around to me and asked, ‘What position are you?’ I told them and they just said, ‘No, you’re a hooker’. From there I had to learn to scrummage and throw. I got to Wasps and they didn’t trust my throwing. They said they wanted to play me but they didn’t think, if the game was on the line, that they could trust me to throw in. It was a fair point. They moved me to the back row for a few games but I was still training as a hooker. Lee gave me the offer of staying as a back-rower and becoming Wasps’ No 8.

While England head coach, Eddie Jones advised Barbeary to revert to hooker.

“We had a meeting and Eddie said you can either choose hooker – but you have to want to play there – and you can be one of the best in the world, or you can be a mediocre back-rower in the Premiership. I didn’t really know what to say to that. I spoke to my dad and we decided what will be, will be. I enjoy playing a lot more at back row than hooker and if I’m going to make something of my career I need to be able to enjoy it.”

‘Touring New Zealand is a dream’

As he relaxes at an opulent dining table among the neo-gothic architecture of Bath’s Farleigh House training base, there really does not seem much by way of mediocrity about Barbeary. In a Bath puffer jacket, with signet ring on finger, hoop in ear, Ugg slippers on feet, Barbeary could easily pass as the earl of Farleigh House. Certainly, on the field, the No 8 has developed into rugby royalty; a crucial cog in Bath’s tilt at a first Premiership title of the professional era. Had Barbeary not copped a ban which coincided with Steve Borthwick naming his England squad for the Six Nations, there is a chance that this season could have been yet more regal. The word is that the uncapped Barbeary was to be included but, instead, had to make do with a spot in the England A squad for their match against Portugal. Still, there is a tour to New Zealand on the horizon.

“Before the Six Nations, Steve and I went for a coffee just outside of Combe Down,” says Barbeary. “He told me what he wanted from me and asked me if I’d be able to do it, and stay fit all season. And then go from there. I told him I’d do my best and then unfortunately I went and shot myself in the foot. But, he was complimentary, told me what he wanted me to work on – I’d only played a couple of games at that point – and set me a goal to work towards. It was good to meet him and have some contact with England. At the beginning of the season, I felt like I was out of the picture; I almost felt a bit forgotten about. It was good to get that meeting in and have a good conversation. We’ve stayed in touch; little bits here and there.

“[Touring New Zealand] would be huge, one of the days you dream of. I don’t want to get ahead of myself too much as we still have a semi-final to play. I’m very much still in semi-final mode. I know that if I perform for Bath and we perform well, everything will fall into place.”

Borthwick’s penchant for a super-strength could not lend itself more favourably to Barbeary’s route-one approach. The No 8, unashamedly, likes carrying the ball hard. As well as the medical facilities and Johann van Graan’s vision, it is what attracted him to Bath – their need for a player to run into other players and go forward. And when Barbeary lists his rugby idols – “Ma’a Nonu, Manu Tuilagi and Mathieu Bastareaud” – it is hardly surprising that he favours the more agricultural side of the sport.

“One of my mates at Wasps told me that I was made out of Play-Doh – and you can’t break Play-Doh,” says Barbeary. “That has always stuck in my head. No matter if I get hit, it’s a bit like Play-Doh – not going to break. I’m a very upright carrier which I’ve had to work on a bit, with more and more boys going in low, fighting that. I’ve always been an upright carrier, squeezing and wriggling out of tackles. I’ve adapted my game a bit and with that you’re getting fewer shots in the ribs.

“I’m always looking to improve and maybe be more agile and drop a bit of weight. But, for me, this season has been about getting back fit, getting a good run of games and starting to enjoy rugby again – injury-free. As my fitness has come on, I’m starting to get more agile, starting to gain more confidence. At the start of the season, I was hesitant to step off my right knee. It was heavily strapped and I was nervous about it. With that, I just wanted to get back playing and, once you get the wheel’s turning, your game improves.”

That it has; far beyond mediocrity.

Interesting article, suggesting that hooker was never something he particularly enjoyed, not ever had the nuts and bolts for. Some high-grade man-management from Eddie in there as well - "Do as I say or else you'll just be mediocre." Great thing to say to a teenager.

Puja

I disagree with Eddie’s methods, but I don’t entirely disagree with some of his assessment. Clearly Barbeary is considerably better than ‘mediocre’ at 8, but I think he had the potential to be a world class hooker in the Malcolm Marx mould. I’m not sure he’ll be in that class as an 8.

The bottom line is he needed to want it and he obviously didn’t so Eddie wasn’t totally wrong.

Knowing Eddie, he was also probably looking at the up and coming hookers, seeing that there wasn’t an obvious successor to George apart from a very injure prone LCD and thinking ‘how do I push this kid to do what I want?’. Arguably that was for the best interests of English rugby and Barbeary. We’ll never know.

[twitchy]

His passion is ball carrying that is what he is obsessed with. Wasps didn't trust his throwing. I don't see how that adds up to a world class hooker. He should just keep going at 8 and work on maintaining fitness (which seems to be doing well if you watch that physio video from the other thread).

[Banquo]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... r-england/

If anyone began their rugby-playing life as a centre in the Oxfordshire area during the noughties, they have my profoundest sympathies. That is because they would have lined up against Alfie Barbeary: then a centre for Banbury RFC and the nearby Bloxham School, now a brutish No 8 for Premiership side Bath.

With the way Barbeary, 23, plays the game – carrying the ball with the ferocity of a bull which has sat on a wasp – the heart bleeds for those Oxfordshire teens. But the journey from junior centre to professional No 8 came alongside a large period at hooker, with the eventual move to the back row spearheaded by then Wasps head coach Lee Blackett – now Barbeary’s attack coach at Bath – against the wishes of then England head coach Eddie Jones.

“At the first training session with the academy, they had a counties tournament and picked boys up from there,” Barbeary tells Telegraph Sport. “I got picked and moved up a year group – in my first session. I was a flanker/centre at the time and they turned around to me and asked, ‘What position are you?’ I told them and they just said, ‘No, you’re a hooker’. From there I had to learn to scrummage and throw. I got to Wasps and they didn’t trust my throwing. They said they wanted to play me but they didn’t think, if the game was on the line, that they could trust me to throw in. It was a fair point. They moved me to the back row for a few games but I was still training as a hooker. Lee gave me the offer of staying as a back-rower and becoming Wasps’ No 8.

While England head coach, Eddie Jones advised Barbeary to revert to hooker.

“We had a meeting and Eddie said you can either choose hooker – but you have to want to play there – and you can be one of the best in the world, or you can be a mediocre back-rower in the Premiership. I didn’t really know what to say to that. I spoke to my dad and we decided what will be, will be. I enjoy playing a lot more at back row than hooker and if I’m going to make something of my career I need to be able to enjoy it.”

‘Touring New Zealand is a dream’

As he relaxes at an opulent dining table among the neo-gothic architecture of Bath’s Farleigh House training base, there really does not seem much by way of mediocrity about Barbeary. In a Bath puffer jacket, with signet ring on finger, hoop in ear, Ugg slippers on feet, Barbeary could easily pass as the earl of Farleigh House. Certainly, on the field, the No 8 has developed into rugby royalty; a crucial cog in Bath’s tilt at a first Premiership title of the professional era. Had Barbeary not copped a ban which coincided with Steve Borthwick naming his England squad for the Six Nations, there is a chance that this season could have been yet more regal. The word is that the uncapped Barbeary was to be included but, instead, had to make do with a spot in the England A squad for their match against Portugal. Still, there is a tour to New Zealand on the horizon.

“Before the Six Nations, Steve and I went for a coffee just outside of Combe Down,” says Barbeary. “He told me what he wanted from me and asked me if I’d be able to do it, and stay fit all season. And then go from there. I told him I’d do my best and then unfortunately I went and shot myself in the foot. But, he was complimentary, told me what he wanted me to work on – I’d only played a couple of games at that point – and set me a goal to work towards. It was good to meet him and have some contact with England. At the beginning of the season, I felt like I was out of the picture; I almost felt a bit forgotten about. It was good to get that meeting in and have a good conversation. We’ve stayed in touch; little bits here and there.

“[Touring New Zealand] would be huge, one of the days you dream of. I don’t want to get ahead of myself too much as we still have a semi-final to play. I’m very much still in semi-final mode. I know that if I perform for Bath and we perform well, everything will fall into place.”

Borthwick’s penchant for a super-strength could not lend itself more favourably to Barbeary’s route-one approach. The No 8, unashamedly, likes carrying the ball hard. As well as the medical facilities and Johann van Graan’s vision, it is what attracted him to Bath – their need for a player to run into other players and go forward. And when Barbeary lists his rugby idols – “Ma’a Nonu, Manu Tuilagi and Mathieu Bastareaud” – it is hardly surprising that he favours the more agricultural side of the sport.

“One of my mates at Wasps told me that I was made out of Play-Doh – and you can’t break Play-Doh,” says Barbeary. “That has always stuck in my head. No matter if I get hit, it’s a bit like Play-Doh – not going to break. I’m a very upright carrier which I’ve had to work on a bit, with more and more boys going in low, fighting that. I’ve always been an upright carrier, squeezing and wriggling out of tackles. I’ve adapted my game a bit and with that you’re getting fewer shots in the ribs.

“I’m always looking to improve and maybe be more agile and drop a bit of weight. But, for me, this season has been about getting back fit, getting a good run of games and starting to enjoy rugby again – injury-free. As my fitness has come on, I’m starting to get more agile, starting to gain more confidence. At the start of the season, I was hesitant to step off my right knee. It was heavily strapped and I was nervous about it. With that, I just wanted to get back playing and, once you get the wheel’s turning, your game improves.”

That it has; far beyond mediocrity.

Interesting article, suggesting that hooker was never something he particularly enjoyed, not ever had the nuts and bolts for. Some high-grade man-management from Eddie in there as well - "Do as I say or else you'll just be mediocre." Great thing to say to a teenager.

Puja

I disagree with Eddie’s methods, but I don’t entirely disagree with some of his assessment. Clearly Barbeary is considerably better than ‘mediocre’ at 8, but I think he had the potential to be a world class hooker in the Malcolm Marx mould. I’m not sure he’ll be in that class as an 8.

The bottom line is he needed to want it and he obviously didn’t so Eddie wasn’t totally wrong.

Knowing Eddie, he was also probably looking at the up and coming hookers, seeing that there wasn’t an obvious successor to George apart from a very injure prone LCD and thinking ‘how do I push this kid to do what I want?’. Arguably that was for the best interests of English rugby and Barbeary. We’ll never know.

Agreed, and my key take away from what was quoted was that Eddie was saying only be a hooker if YOU really want to. And he didn't, so all else is moot.

[Banquo]

His passion is ball carrying that is what he is obsessed with. Wasps didn't trust his throwing. I don't see how that adds up to a world class hooker. He should just keep going at 8 and work on maintaining fitness (which seems to be doing well if you watch that physio video from the other thread).

....wasps maybe didn't want to 'invest' in the time taken to get him up to speed as a hooker (a la Thompson; took him a while to convert as well), and I think had he a - wanted to be a hooker, b- cracked the throwing in, then that would add up to top class as a hooker with his other skills.

[Scrumhead]

His passion is ball carrying that is what he is obsessed with. Wasps didn't trust his throwing. I don't see how that adds up to a world class hooker. He should just keep going at 8 and work on maintaining fitness (which seems to be doing well if you watch that physio video from the other thread).

I definitely wouldn’t suggest he moves again now.

I deliberately used Marx as a comparison as his stand-out attributes were initially carrying and jackalling. He’s significantly improved his set piece game over the past few years, but previously his throwing was very erratic. Now he has the full package, he’d generally be regarded as one of the best, if not the best hooker in the world.

I could have seen Barbeary doing the same if he’d wanted to. He didn’t though so it’s a moot point as Banquo said.

[Puja]

His passion is ball carrying that is what he is obsessed with. Wasps didn't trust his throwing. I don't see how that adds up to a world class hooker. He should just keep going at 8 and work on maintaining fitness (which seems to be doing well if you watch that physio video from the other thread).

....wasps maybe didn't want to 'invest' in the time taken to get him up to speed as a hooker (a la Thompson; took him a while to convert as well), and I think had he a - wanted to be a hooker, b- cracked the throwing in, then that would add up to top class as a hooker with his other skills.

There's also the fact that I pointed out at the time, which is that taking the time to train himself as a hooker, up to the levels needed at the top level, would have had a major impact on his other skills and development. We could just as easily have ended up with a less effective carrier with unreliable lineout skills.

Puja

[Banquo]

His passion is ball carrying that is what he is obsessed with. Wasps didn't trust his throwing. I don't see how that adds up to a world class hooker. He should just keep going at 8 and work on maintaining fitness (which seems to be doing well if you watch that physio video from the other thread).

....wasps maybe didn't want to 'invest' in the time taken to get him up to speed as a hooker (a la Thompson; took him a while to convert as well), and I think had he a - wanted to be a hooker, b- cracked the throwing in, then that would add up to top class as a hooker with his other skills.

There's also the fact that I pointed out at the time, which is that taking the time to train himself as a hooker, up to the levels needed at the top level, would have had a major impact on his other skills and development. We could just as easily have ended up with a less effective carrier with unreliable lineout skills.

Puja

fact or hypothesis? As I said, Thompson managed it. They do have quite a lot of time, and he wasn't starting from scratch.

[Captainhaircut]

Any country with a future looking approach would have kept him at hooker. We have countless back rowers but a relative dearth at hooker. Now we have a huge amount of 8s (earl, Willis, mercer, fisalau, Dombrant, Barbeary plus CCS who can play there) and pretty much 3 hookers- one of which is George who will do well to still be playing in 2 years.

Even Wasps should have been thinking they had Willis and Fisalau at 8 around the same age.

[FKAS]

Any country with a future looking approach would have kept him at hooker. We have countless back rowers but a relative dearth at hooker. Now we have a huge amount of 8s (earl, Willis, mercer, fisalau, Dombrant, Barbeary plus CCS who can play there) and pretty much 3 hookers- one of which is George who will do well to still be playing in 2 years.

Even Wasps should have been thinking they had Willis and Fisalau at 8 around the same age.

Riley, Jibulu, Blake, Vanes, FTT etc we're not really lacking on former under 20s that are playing senior rugby for Prem sides and all of them are under 23 iirc. Theo Dan is still only 23. Then you've got Blamire, Oghre and Langdon in their mid to late twenties. We're not short on hookers.

Wasps had Oghre, Cruse and Frost on their books. Not a bad selection of hookers for the way they played. Wasps would have likely deployed an 8 on the blindside to help accommodate them all. There's not much point pushing Barbeary to play a position of his heart wasn't in it.

[Puja]

....wasps maybe didn't want to 'invest' in the time taken to get him up to speed as a hooker (a la Thompson; took him a while to convert as well), and I think had he a - wanted to be a hooker, b- cracked the throwing in, then that would add up to top class as a hooker with his other skills.

There's also the fact that I pointed out at the time, which is that taking the time to train himself as a hooker, up to the levels needed at the top level, would have had a major impact on his other skills and development. We could just as easily have ended up with a less effective carrier with unreliable lineout skills.

Puja

fact or hypothesis? As I said, Thompson managed it. They do have quite a lot of time, and he wasn't starting from scratch.

Thompson managed it, but likely at the cost of not being as good in the loose as if he'd stayed in the back row (and with significant yips in his throwing from time to time). It's the same as the Croft at 4 argument - you can't just port a loose forward into a tight 5 position and say, "We'll get exactly the same loose play from him there and get a free extra back row!"

Puja

[Banquo]

There's also the fact that I pointed out at the time, which is that taking the time to train himself as a hooker, up to the levels needed at the top level, would have had a major impact on his other skills and development. We could just as easily have ended up with a less effective carrier with unreliable lineout skills.

Puja

fact or hypothesis? As I said, Thompson managed it. They do have quite a lot of time, and he wasn't starting from scratch.

Thompson managed it, but likely at the cost of not being as good in the loose as if he'd stayed in the back row (and with significant yips in his throwing from time to time). It's the same as the Croft at 4 argument - you can't just port a loose forward into a tight 5 position and say, "We'll get exactly the same loose play from him there and get a free extra back row!"

Puja

I was challenging your `fact` assertion. I would also say you cant know if his loose play suffered in Thommos case tbh, and there was a reason geech moved him; his 'yips' were later in career, but at his peak.....world class.
Barbeary started hooking at u15 level and all his intl age group rugby was at hooker, so his `port' was the other way round.
I didn`t make the last statement.
,

[Puja]

fact or hypothesis? As I said, Thompson managed it. They do have quite a lot of time, and he wasn't starting from scratch.

Thompson managed it, but likely at the cost of not being as good in the loose as if he'd stayed in the back row (and with significant yips in his throwing from time to time). It's the same as the Croft at 4 argument - you can't just port a loose forward into a tight 5 position and say, "We'll get exactly the same loose play from him there and get a free extra back row!"

Puja

I was challenging your `fact` assertion. I would also say you cant know if his loose play suffered in Thommos case tbh, and there was a reason geech moved him; his 'yips' were later in career, but at his peak.....world class.
Barbeary started hooking at u15 level and all his intl age group rugby was at hooker, so his `port' was the other way round.
I didn`t make the last statement.
,

...that is a really weird point-of-semantics hill to be dying on. Yes, I will give you that technically, we cannot 100% know as a *fact* what would have happened to Alfie Barbeary's carrying in the counterfactual history where he devoted a significant portion of his training time to developing the nuts and bolts of scrummaging and throwing in as a hooker. However, given that it's pretty well established that the more you train a skill, the better you get at it, I'm still comfortable with my gentle hyperbole in referring to it as a fact.

Puja

[Banquo]

Thompson managed it, but likely at the cost of not being as good in the loose as if he'd stayed in the back row (and with significant yips in his throwing from time to time). It's the same as the Croft at 4 argument - you can't just port a loose forward into a tight 5 position and say, "We'll get exactly the same loose play from him there and get a free extra back row!"

Puja

I was challenging your `fact` assertion. I would also say you cant know if his loose play suffered in Thommos case tbh, and there was a reason geech moved him; his 'yips' were later in career, but at his peak.....world class.
Barbeary started hooking at u15 level and all his intl age group rugby was at hooker, so his `port' was the other way round.
I didn`t make the last statement.
,

...that is a really weird point-of-semantics hill to be dying on. Yes, I will give you that technically, we cannot 100% know as a *fact* what would have happened to Alfie Barbeary's carrying in the counterfactual history where he devoted a significant portion of his training time to developing the nuts and bolts of scrummaging and throwing in as a hooker. However, given that it's pretty well established that the more you train a skill, the better you get at it, I'm still comfortable with my gentle hyperbole in referring to it as a fact.

Puja

lol. Definitely perished on that knoll....maybe its me, but being factual is hardly a semantic.
How about the rest...ie Barbeary was a hooker from 14-20 or so and was moved from front row- presumably had a smattering of nuts and bolts, being an intl level age grade hooker? Pro players have plenty of time to practice skills tbh, and he had been doing the positional ones for years anyway.

[Banquo]

Any country with a future looking approach would have kept him at hooker. We have countless back rowers but a relative dearth at hooker. Now we have a huge amount of 8s (earl, Willis, mercer, fisalau, Dombrant, Barbeary plus CCS who can play there) and pretty much 3 hookers- one of which is George who will do well to still be playing in 2 years.

Even Wasps should have been thinking they had Willis and Fisalau at 8 around the same age.

sort of agree, save his heart wasnt in it. As above i think he had the athletic and rugby potential to be excellent....but back toEddies point....

[Puja]

I was challenging your `fact` assertion. I would also say you cant know if his loose play suffered in Thommos case tbh, and there was a reason geech moved him; his 'yips' were later in career, but at his peak.....world class.
Barbeary started hooking at u15 level and all his intl age group rugby was at hooker, so his `port' was the other way round.
I didn`t make the last statement.
,

...that is a really weird point-of-semantics hill to be dying on. Yes, I will give you that technically, we cannot 100% know as a *fact* what would have happened to Alfie Barbeary's carrying in the counterfactual history where he devoted a significant portion of his training time to developing the nuts and bolts of scrummaging and throwing in as a hooker. However, given that it's pretty well established that the more you train a skill, the better you get at it, I'm still comfortable with my gentle hyperbole in referring to it as a fact.

Puja

lol. Definitely perished on that knoll....maybe its me, but being factual is hardly a semantic. was wondering if you had insight, but clearly not.

Oh, never! Absolutely never

How about the rest...ie Barbeary was a hooker from 14-20 or so and was moved from front row- presumably had a smattering of nuts and bolts, being an intl level age grade hooker? Pro players have plenty of time to practice skills tbh, and he had been doing the positional ones for years anyway.

His hooking career was 7 games with England U18s, 17 minutes off the bench for England U20s, and a single appearance of 31 minutes in a Premiership cup game for Wasps (in which he did not throw in because he wasn't trusted - Oghre was moved to flank). His hooking career was ages 14-18, during which time he was also playing centre for his school.

Puja

[Banquo]

...that is a really weird point-of-semantics hill to be dying on. Yes, I will give you that technically, we cannot 100% know as a *fact* what would have happened to Alfie Barbeary's carrying in the counterfactual history where he devoted a significant portion of his training time to developing the nuts and bolts of scrummaging and throwing in as a hooker. However, given that it's pretty well established that the more you train a skill, the better you get at it, I'm still comfortable with my gentle hyperbole in referring to it as a fact.

Puja

lol. Definitely perished on that knoll....maybe its me, but being factual is hardly a semantic. was wondering if you had insight, but clearly not.

Oh, never! Absolutely never

How about the rest...ie Barbeary was a hooker from 14-20 or so and was moved from front row- presumably had a smattering of nuts and bolts, being an intl level age grade hooker? Pro players have plenty of time to practice skills tbh, and he had been doing the positional ones for years anyway.

His hooking career was 7 games with England U18s, 17 minutes off the bench for England U20s, and a single appearance of 31 minutes in a Premiership cup game for Wasps (in which he did not throw in because he wasn't trusted - Oghre was moved to flank). His hooking career was ages 14-18, during which time he was also playing centre for his school.

Puja

During all that period one assumes he at least trained as a hooker in international camps? Its hardly insignificant. And to your point about learning skills at the expense of something else (which I don't totally buy), his switch to back row must have had some impact, surely .
It is moot, given the outcome is a decent number 8.

(assume he would have had a lot more u20 time at hooker but for a red at the junior world cup)

[Mikey Brown]

I was all on board with him being a hooker, just for England's sake, but a) hardly played there b) doesn’t want to c) doesn’t seem like the skillset even suited him, seems pretty compelling to me that he made the right choice.

Though sticking at 12 could have been a laugh.