RugbyRebels

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Stom wrote:
I feel that when/if they fish it out of the Avon, it will have more impact and more of a story in a museum now.

I think they've done history a service by toppling it and throwing it into the river. I think it's an important part of history now.

They did petition the council.

The woman at the end of the Last Week Tonight show has it right: the social contract has been broken. What do you expect to happen?

How has the social contract in this country been broken? There has been an incredible amount of work to reduce inequality and just because Bristol city council don't move as quickly as you would like, that's not evidence of any social contract being broken.

Thats just an excuse for criminal behaviour. At what point does acceptable criminality become unacceptable, and who gets to decide that?

When you look at the figures around employment opportunities, or the makeup of the CEOs of FTSE 100 companies... there is definitely some inequality going on there.

We are still pretty much run by rich, old, white men.

Sandydragon wrote:

cashead wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: I agree. I'd rather put up a sign explaining why he was such a c*nt (or even move the statue to a less high profile location) than just rip down our history. The fact is we did indulge and promote the slave trade and then we took the lead in stopping it. You can't cherry pick the bits of history you like.

I do understand that the nature of a statue his to commemorate and there are good reasons to remove them. But that is the decision of the local democratically elected council, not a mob.

So presumably both of you would have had objections to the plaque that was added that sanitised Colston's history of slavery, focusing on his philanthropy. After all, if "you can't cherry pick the bits of history you like," then conversely, you can't downplay the bits you don't like, right?

The arguments made by the both of you are literally the same shit peddled by people who try to argue to keep Confederate statues standing, and it's quite telling that both of you are also downplaying local criticism and efforts to even have the fucking plaque on the statue to acknowledge Colston's role in the slave trade, which was heavily obstructed by Tory councillors and the Society of Merchant Venturers, who did not want any mention of his affiliation in Parliament mentioned (can't imagine why), his role in the slave trade downplayed, and the punitive measures he took against any individuals or groups that did not share his views on the slave trade - all of which are recorded facts with primary evidence supporting them.

So, is it OK that the Merchant Venturers and the Tories went out of their way to play interference against the democratically elected City Council's attempt at any acknowledgement of Colston's role in the slave trade, including a campaign of misinformation? Do the local community campaigns against the statue and other Colston shit in Bristol not count? How is it fair, or democratic that a small cabal of Tories or the Merchant Venturers get to continue publicly celebrating someone like Colston and sanitising his history over the objections from the wider community?

On the other hand, this fucking guy?

Which Tyler wrote:The statue thing is great because the kind of people getting outraged by the icon of a slaver being pulled down are exactly the types of people who deserve to be outraged and so can fuck off.

This fucking guy gets it.

Utter rubbish. I would have explained all of Colston's history (indeed I have pointed that out below so I suggest you actually read some of these posts properly).

You highlight a debate in the local council. Thats what its there for, not everyone agrees with you and your viewpoint.

Do try and get your head around the fact that people who don't agree with you aren't necessary supporting racism. We just have different views on how it should be dealt with.

morepork wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

cashead wrote: So presumably both of you would have had objections to the plaque that was added that sanitised Colston's history of slavery, focusing on his philanthropy. After all, if "you can't cherry pick the bits of history you like," then conversely, you can't downplay the bits you don't like, right?

The arguments made by the both of you are literally the same shit peddled by people who try to argue to keep Confederate statues standing, and it's quite telling that both of you are also downplaying local criticism and efforts to even have the fucking plaque on the statue to acknowledge Colston's role in the slave trade, which was heavily obstructed by Tory councillors and the Society of Merchant Venturers, who did not want any mention of his affiliation in Parliament mentioned (can't imagine why), his role in the slave trade downplayed, and the punitive measures he took against any individuals or groups that did not share his views on the slave trade - all of which are recorded facts with primary evidence supporting them.

So, is it OK that the Merchant Venturers and the Tories went out of their way to play interference against the democratically elected City Council's attempt at any acknowledgement of Colston's role in the slave trade, including a campaign of misinformation? Do the local community campaigns against the statue and other Colston shit in Bristol not count? How is it fair, or democratic that a small cabal of Tories or the Merchant Venturers get to continue publicly celebrating someone like Colston and sanitising his history over the objections from the wider community?

On the other hand, this fucking guy?



This fucking guy gets it.

Utter rubbish. I would have explained all of Colston's history (indeed I have pointed that out below so I suggest you actually read some of these posts properly).

You highlight a debate in the local council. Thats what its there for, not everyone agrees with you and your viewpoint.

Do try and get your head around the fact that people who don't agree with you aren't necessary supporting racism. We just have different views on how it should be dealt with.

And haven't those views just been fantastic at addressing the problem thus far. Jesus christ son....

Sandydragon wrote:

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: How has the social contract in this country been broken? There has been an incredible amount of work to reduce inequality and just because Bristol city council don't move as quickly as you would like, that's not evidence of any social contract being broken.

Thats just an excuse for criminal behaviour. At what point does acceptable criminality become unacceptable, and who gets to decide that?

When you look at the figures around employment opportunities, or the makeup of the CEOs of FTSE 100 companies... there is definitely some inequality going on there.

We are still pretty much run by rich, old, white men.

You're quite right. Only 28% of top posts are filled with women and something like 8% are filled by people of BAME background (total pop of about 14%).

Not that long ago, there would have been virtually no business leaders from the BAME community so progress is being made although since it usually take a long time to work to the top jobs, it won't be overnight change. Many big companies have very good programmes to encourage BAME candidates into senior leadership roles but one f the key obstacles highlighted by BAME respondents to recent surveys is the lack of role models, which is a bit chicken and egg.

I would also suggest that its worth looking at home many top jobs go to people who have had private school education vs comprehensive. The former are very over represented and I would suggest that many in the BAME community aren't attending those institutions. So there is a wider piece to consider about how well children and young people are prepared for work, what support they have from their peer groups, and the educational standard they attain, even before looking at hiring and promotion practices in organisations.

Sandydragon wrote:

morepork wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
Utter rubbish. I would have explained all of Colston's history (indeed I have pointed that out below so I suggest you actually read some of these posts properly).

You highlight a debate in the local council. Thats what its there for, not everyone agrees with you and your viewpoint.

Do try and get your head around the fact that people who don't agree with you aren't necessary supporting racism. We just have different views on how it should be dealt with.

And haven't those views just been fantastic at addressing the problem thus far. Jesus christ son....

Don't confuse your country with the UK. There has been progress here and whilst it can be agonisingly slow at times, these are issues that will take generations to resolve in some cases.

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Stom wrote:
When you look at the figures around employment opportunities, or the makeup of the CEOs of FTSE 100 companies... there is definitely some inequality going on there.

We are still pretty much run by rich, old, white men.

You're quite right. Only 28% of top posts are filled with women and something like 8% are filled by people of BAME background (total pop of about 14%).

Not that long ago, there would have been virtually no business leaders from the BAME community so progress is being made although since it usually take a long time to work to the top jobs, it won't be overnight change. Many big companies have very good programmes to encourage BAME candidates into senior leadership roles but one f the key obstacles highlighted by BAME respondents to recent surveys is the lack of role models, which is a bit chicken and egg.

I would also suggest that its worth looking at home many top jobs go to people who have had private school education vs comprehensive. The former are very over represented and I would suggest that many in the BAME community aren't attending those institutions. So there is a wider piece to consider about how well children and young people are prepared for work, what support they have from their peer groups, and the educational standard they attain, even before looking at hiring and promotion practices in organisations.

Which brings us full circle toward institutionalised racism (and sexism and bigotry in general). That doesn't mean it's intentional, the UK isn't full of a bunch of screaming racists, but actions do result in inequality.

Every single part of our system is geared toward keeping people in their "place". As most black people were at the bottom of the pile when these systems were put in place, that's where they've stayed.

That's what people mean. You don't see how broken it all is, but it is incredibly broken. Especially in the UK because no-one likes talking about upsetting the apple cart. No-one likes to cause disruption. But without disruption we have an unfair system that puts people into boxes it's incredibly hard to escape.

morepork wrote:Why generations?

Sandydragon wrote:

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
You're quite right. Only 28% of top posts are filled with women and something like 8% are filled by people of BAME background (total pop of about 14%).

Not that long ago, there would have been virtually no business leaders from the BAME community so progress is being made although since it usually take a long time to work to the top jobs, it won't be overnight change. Many big companies have very good programmes to encourage BAME candidates into senior leadership roles but one f the key obstacles highlighted by BAME respondents to recent surveys is the lack of role models, which is a bit chicken and egg.

I would also suggest that its worth looking at home many top jobs go to people who have had private school education vs comprehensive. The former are very over represented and I would suggest that many in the BAME community aren't attending those institutions. So there is a wider piece to consider about how well children and young people are prepared for work, what support they have from their peer groups, and the educational standard they attain, even before looking at hiring and promotion practices in organisations.

Which brings us full circle toward institutionalised racism (and sexism and bigotry in general). That doesn't mean it's intentional, the UK isn't full of a bunch of screaming racists, but actions do result in inequality.

Every single part of our system is geared toward keeping people in their "place". As most black people were at the bottom of the pile when these systems were put in place, that's where they've stayed.

That's what people mean. You don't see how broken it all is, but it is incredibly broken. Especially in the UK because no-one likes talking about upsetting the apple cart. No-one likes to cause disruption. But without disruption we have an unfair system that puts people into boxes it's incredibly hard to escape.

That's just not true.

There are plenty of opportunities to move up the social hierarchy. There are plenty of BAME community examples I can think of who have managed to do just that. Yes, it's harder to get to the top job if you are starting out from the lowest levels of society, but its achievable.

Many look at the fact that we have an hereditary monarchy and public schools and assume that we are class riven and everyone is stuck where they are born. It's certainly easier to achieve success if you are born with the silver spoon in your mouth, but this doesn't mean that its impossible. Its just harder. But this is a social class thing which is also hard for white children from poorer families who are stuck in poor schools and have unhealthy peer pressure and low expectations.

morepork wrote:Why generations?

Digby wrote:

morepork wrote:Why generations?

Because humanity thus far hasn't thus far shown itself to be capable of more. If we could end racism, sexism, homophobia, rape, domestic violence and the like by pulling down some monuments I'm happy to see every statue in the world toppled by close of play tomorrow, and I'd take the hit to democracy as easily worth it.

Stom wrote:

Digby wrote:

morepork wrote:Why generations?

Because humanity thus far hasn't thus far shown itself to be capable of more. If we could end racism, sexism, homophobia, rape, domestic violence and the like by pulling down some monuments I'm happy to see every statue in the world toppled by close of play tomorrow, and I'd take the hit to democracy as easily worth it.

The thing is...changing a system causes pain for the people who are benefiting from the system. And those people are the same people who make up the political class.

If they're left to their own devices, nothing changes.

By letting it take generations, you're basically letting it go unchanged, as nothing will happen. Some meaningless platitudes will happen, and some facile changes, but nothing lasting, nothing real, and nothing that 90% of those exploited by the current system can cling on to.

Racism is not the cause here, it is a symptom of the cause. The cause is widespread, extreme corruption, cronyism, protectionism, and fear.

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Stom wrote:
Which brings us full circle toward institutionalised racism (and sexism and bigotry in general). That doesn't mean it's intentional, the UK isn't full of a bunch of screaming racists, but actions do result in inequality.

Every single part of our system is geared toward keeping people in their "place". As most black people were at the bottom of the pile when these systems were put in place, that's where they've stayed.

That's what people mean. You don't see how broken it all is, but it is incredibly broken. Especially in the UK because no-one likes talking about upsetting the apple cart. No-one likes to cause disruption. But without disruption we have an unfair system that puts people into boxes it's incredibly hard to escape.

That's just not true.

There are plenty of opportunities to move up the social hierarchy. There are plenty of BAME community examples I can think of who have managed to do just that. Yes, it's harder to get to the top job if you are starting out from the lowest levels of society, but its achievable.

Many look at the fact that we have an hereditary monarchy and public schools and assume that we are class riven and everyone is stuck where they are born. It's certainly easier to achieve success if you are born with the silver spoon in your mouth, but this doesn't mean that its impossible. Its just harder. But this is a social class thing which is also hard for white children from poorer families who are stuck in poor schools and have unhealthy peer pressure and low expectations.

I didn't say it wasn't, it's just that BAME kids are more likely to be in that "class" to start.

And while many may look at the UK and think it's class riven...

It is.

I know, I went to a "fee paying" school. Inverted commas because it was only partially fee paying, they accepted people from all social groups. But those from the lower social group were looked down on really badly. And those from the top social group were appointed to student roles, given extra opportunities, and so on.

Of the people I know from school, the ones from the lower classes have gone on to live lives in, well, the lower classes. While those from a higher social class have gone on to live lives in, well, higher classes!

You might want to deny it, but when you see politics and the sheer quantity of privately educated politicians, the presence of SPADs, nearly all of whom aren't jut privately educated but went to public schools, and the backgrounds of all the CEOs of top companies...

You realise the UK has a serious class problem. There are exceptions, there always are...but hey, you're a military man and, well, how do you get into officer school? What's the makeup of officer school in terms of social background?

Denying the UK has a class, and therefore a bigotry, problem is sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala.

Sandydragon wrote:

Stom wrote:

Digby wrote:
Because humanity thus far hasn't thus far shown itself to be capable of more. If we could end racism, sexism, homophobia, rape, domestic violence and the like by pulling down some monuments I'm happy to see every statue in the world toppled by close of play tomorrow, and I'd take the hit to democracy as easily worth it.

The thing is...changing a system causes pain for the people who are benefiting from the system. And those people are the same people who make up the political class.

If they're left to their own devices, nothing changes.

By letting it take generations, you're basically letting it go unchanged, as nothing will happen. Some meaningless platitudes will happen, and some facile changes, but nothing lasting, nothing real, and nothing that 90% of those exploited by the current system can cling on to.

Racism is not the cause here, it is a symptom of the cause. The cause is widespread, extreme corruption, cronyism, protectionism, and fear.

So what would you do to change the situation in a shorter time frame? Britain is already a very tolerant nation, compared to
So many others it really is, and whilst not perfect radical change isn’t the answer. It’s about encouragement and support which is available now. Pushing quotas is self defeating, and many BAME employees I speak to don’t want anything like that.

morepork wrote:I really don't understand how anyone can struggle to see the bigger picture here. Pretty sure there the UK has it's fair share of inequality. Yet some choose to view public expression of frustration at this ongoing state of affairs through the lens of law and order. I really don't get that.

cashead wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

morepork wrote:
And haven't those views just been fantastic at addressing the problem thus far. Jesus christ son....

Don't confuse your country with the UK. There has been progress here and whilst it can be agonisingly slow at times, these are issues that will take generations to resolve in some cases.

Spoken like a true bootlicker.

Not putting up a statue of a slaver or publicly acknowledging the extent of his actions during and after slavery is not one of them.

But hey, "different views" and "oh you're getting emotional about it," right?

Digby wrote:Some of the crappy outcomes some people have from our education and health systems are partly on those individuals, it's not all down to the state/society

Go on, let's hear more of this.