RugbyRebels

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:28 am I think he’s absolutely world class, and seems to lift his game for the big occasions, but can he be relied upon to be available?

I think his race is unfortunately run because of this, he's had so many injuries in a 7ish year career through putting his body on the line like few others. And there's flankers for days now. Phenomenal player but I just get shades of Tuilagi about his fitness, only we actually have (quite a lot of) alternatives in that position.

Danno wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:24 am

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:18 am

Danno wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:07 am

Oh cool, more Spencer. Just wonderful.

I don't understand the negativity around Spencer on RR, I think he's really excellent... Better than JVP at this moment (JVP could well develop) in my view.

At Bath yes. In white, no. One of those players that never quite made the step up.

How many of his 10 England caps came off the bench? I honestly can't believe people think he's been given a fair crack of the whip with England.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:28 am I still think Underhill is massively underrated with the ball in hand. His running style, angles and little tip-on passes seem pretty hard for defences to deal with. He might not get over the ball as much as we’d like, but boy does he thump opponents in the breakdown.

I think he’s absolutely world class, and seems to lift his game for the big occasions, but can he be relied upon to be available? It’s the Luke Northmore conundrum all over again.

I love him and agree his attacking game is underrated. Is he a better 7 than Tom Curry, not much in it.

Honestly the England back row gives me a headache. Thank god there's an no8 now that we can all agree on.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:37 am

Danno wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:24 am

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:18 am

I don't understand the negativity around Spencer on RR, I think he's really excellent... Better than JVP at this moment (JVP could well develop) in my view.

At Bath yes. In white, no. One of those players that never quite made the step up.

How many of his 10 England caps came off the bench? I honestly can't believe people think he's been given a fair crack of the whip with England.

I probably have a touch of black-tinted glasses after he managed to box kick and dilly dally our way out of the 2023 semi, but I don't feel too bad about that. You're right he never got a fair shot - Youngs was given a few too many caps over Spencer and other options

Danno wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:07 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:04 amJack van Poortvliet has joined the British & Irish Lions squad as cover ahead of their game against Argentina on Friday in Dublin.

Oh cool, more Spencer. Just wonderful.

Both should be sitting in an ice-bath on a beach somewhere.
Neither should be involved in a full training session at all this week.

As for Spencer at international level - it's never fallen for him the way I expected it to a decade ago (yeah, cheers Eddie, should have ahd all of HEinz' caps, and a good few from Care/Youngs). He's been poor-bad off the bench when trying too hard and trying to play an unnatural game (add tempo); but seemed fine once trusted with the starting shirt and allowed to actually be himself (controlling SH).
He's not a long-term option, but ought to be fine for 2027. As of now, he's better than JvP, Randall and Quirke, but behind Mitchell; so I'm happy enough for him to start in Argentina (but not this week, because he should be resting his body).

I would add though, that IMO he starts, or doesn't make the 23 - give the 20 shirt to younger, high-tempo players who need to continue their development.
Perfectly decent starting option when Mitchell's away and JvP/Quirke are struggling for form and Randall hasn't realised that England isn't Bristol

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:23 ambut aside from his absolutely world class tackling (a big factor I grant you) you can't say that he's having more impact on games than Tom Curry

So... aside from his point of difference, he's got no point of difference - gotcha.
Mostly though, I think you're talking about 2018 Underhill, not 2025 Underhill - he's developed a lot over the last 3-4 years especially. He may not be the best carrier, jackler or link-man, but he's still well up there rather than being a bit absent.

Worth noting too, that his point of difference is huge, and often momentum-turning / match-turning

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:23 am

jngf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 10:31 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 5:59 pm
You really over rate Underhill- he's very good, but a tad one dimensional still. He hits hard, and has improved his ground work and even links play sometimes. But, hitting hard is a minimum standard. When Pollock hits 21 (:)) come back to us, as you allude to, his versatility is impressive, especially for his age....and if you are actually wanting to develop, a much better bet v not available that much but very good Underhill (1 try in 40 intls is on the low side for a 7, you'd think)

Not sure I that I do tbh He’s arguably been the best tackler in world rugby for a decade and pound for pound one of the most powerful back rows England have ever fielded. For me he pocesses a physical and power edge over either of the Curry twins at 7 , and only Jack Willis is in the same class in terms of ability, albeit their styles differ. No doubt Pollock will take over the mantle in a few years time but he’s not the finished article yet.

Jngf - I am a huge fan of Underhill, I absolutely get people picking him as 1st choice 7 (I wouldn't) - but aside from his absolutely world class tackling (a big factor I grant you) you can't say that he's having more impact on games than Tom Curry and he doesn't bring the carrying threat of Earl, Pollock. He also won't turnover as much as ball as Pepper I'd guess. When you say 'pound for pound most powerful' - that's a tough one... As a tackler absolutely, but surely in carrying terms Earl would trump him, no? Earl is a powerful carrier and is a smaller man than Underhill. By the way I think at this moment I'm a 6 Hill, 7 T Curry man... although let's face it 6 Curry, 7 Earl, 8 Willis has confused some of us as it was rather fine in the 6ns...

Quite, and I’m pretty sure there are a fair few who would argue that Underhill has been the most powerful tackler in the last decade. I like him, he’s developed from more than literally being a one hit wonder, but frankly he remains relatively limited compared to a lot of 7’s globally.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:56 am

Danno wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:07 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:04 amJack van Poortvliet has joined the British & Irish Lions squad as cover ahead of their game against Argentina on Friday in Dublin.

Oh cool, more Spencer. Just wonderful.

Both should be sitting in an ice-bath on a beach somewhere.
Neither should be involved in a full training session at all this week.

As for Spencer at international level - it's never fallen for him the way I expected it to a decade ago (yeah, cheers Eddie, should have ahd all of HEinz' caps, and a good few from Care/Youngs). He's been poor-bad off the bench when trying too hard and trying to play an unnatural game (add tempo); but seemed fine once trusted with the starting shirt and allowed to actually be himself (controlling SH).
He's not a long-term option, but ought to be fine for 2027. As of now, he's better than JvP, Randall and Quirke, but behind Mitchell; so I'm happy enough for him to start in Argentina (but not this week, because he should be resting his body).
I would add though, that IMO he starts, or doesn't make the 23 - give the 20 shirt to younger, high-tempo players who need to continue their development.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:23 ambut aside from his absolutely world class tackling (a big factor I grant you) you can't say that he's having more impact on games than Tom Curry

So... aside from his point of difference, he's got no point of difference - gotcha.
Mostly though, I think you're talking about 2018 Underhill, not 2025 Underhill - he's developed a lot over the last 3-4 years especially. He may not be the best carrier, jackler or link-man, but he's still well up there rather than being a bit absent.

Oh gods, Heinz. All due respect to the guy, he played his heart out but that was a selection I shall never understand.

Agree that Spencer isn't a bench SH, I'd have been more than happy to have him starting in say 2019 with Care coming off the bench to see how that worked

Spencer and Underhill are good back-ups to better players ahead of them which rather confirms the point of this tour - together with testing/developing younger talent.

I’m somewhat conflicted on Underhill.

Generally speaking, I think we look like a better team when he’s in the side and his ability in the loose is significantly underestimated. As @Which put it, the 2025 version is far more than just a destructive tackler.

However … his injury proneness and the quality of competition we now have makes the case for including him more difficult. Particularly given the next RWC is 2yrs of vital development time away.

If Ben Curry is out, I’d take him. If not, I’m reluctant to leave him out, but I do think there’s more to gain by developing Kenningham and/or Pepper.

Danno wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:24 am

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:18 am

Danno wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:07 am

Oh cool, more Spencer. Just wonderful.

I don't understand the negativity around Spencer on RR, I think he's really excellent... Better than JVP at this moment (JVP could well develop) in my view.

At Bath yes. In white, no. One of those players that never quite made the step up.

Yeah that's my view as well. 10 caps and he's about to turn 33. Doesn't feel like there's much point persisting with him. Really good club player but even if he makes the step up now there's a short window of use for England. Porter would have been a better option. Not quite as good as Spencer this season but still good, been around the England A setup and could progress further whilst at an age where he could be around for a while if he did.

Think Spencer has been hard done by with England. He really should have been given a proper run of games as a starter but just got handed 10 minutes off the bench.
Mind, he's never looked crash hot in those appearances and seemed to freeze when he got on.
As a stop gap selection I thinks he's fair enough. Like a few others in the squad, he is unlikely to feature post this summers tests.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:37 am

Danno wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:24 am

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:18 am

I don't understand the negativity around Spencer on RR, I think he's really excellent... Better than JVP at this moment (JVP could well develop) in my view.

At Bath yes. In white, no. One of those players that never quite made the step up.

How many of his 10 England caps came off the bench? I honestly can't believe people think he's been given a fair crack of the whip with England.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 12:03 pm Think Spencer has been hard done by with England. He really should have been given a proper run of games as a starter but just got handed 10 minutes off the bench.
Mind, he's never looked crash hot in those appearances and seemed to freeze when he got on.
As a stop gap selection I thinks he's fair enough. Like a few others in the squad, he is unlikely to feature post this summers tests.

I went and looked it up - in 2024, he played 4 games - one off the bench in the 6N for 34 minutes, 1 off the bench in NZ for 23 minutes, and two starts in the autumn, against Australia and New Zealand, for 62 and 61 minutes.

Now, 4 games, 2 starts, and 180 minutes isn't necessarily a big body of work, but the important thing to remember is that he was **terrible**. Against Scotland, he came on and utterly killed the game, which would've been fine except we were losing and needed to score! It wasn't orders or anything, because we'd been chancing our arm with Care and then the second he came on, every bit of possession was kicked away. He did the same in NZ, so badly that Badlyburned didn't even bring him off the bench in the second test, despite Mitchell looking absolutely shagged out.

He was given another chance in the autumn and was again rubbish, with terrible decision-making, a major handbrake on our attack, and the box-kicking being both too long, too slow and overused, just giving the ball away. He managed to make it into the second game by dint of Randall demonstrating just how much worse box-kicking could get (while still offering a massive acceleration to our attack), but continued to be rubbish against Australia, after which JvP was fit and we gratefully dropped him.

So yeah, it's not a long and storied body of evidence, but it's consistent enough across four caps in quick succession that I want him nowhere near the England team, no matter how well he plays for Bath (given those turds I described were squeezed out at the same time as he was shining domestically). Whatever overtakes him when he puts on a white shirt, I don't know, but it's enough that I'm willing to give up on him.

Puja

Spencer just became more important with JvP's Lions call-up. 'Cover for Gibson-Park' per BBC - temporary, it doesn't say.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 11:42 am .

the 2025 version is far more than just a destructive tackler.

However … his injury proneness and the quality of competition we now have makes the case for including him more difficult. Particularly given the next RWC is 2yrs of vital development time away.

exactly as I said in reply to the op.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:28 am I still think Underhill is massively underrated with the ball in hand. His running style, angles and little tip-on passes seem pretty hard for defences to deal with. He might not get over the ball as much as we’d like, but boy does he thump opponents in the breakdown.

I think he’s absolutely world class, and seems to lift his game for the big occasions, but can he be relied upon to be available? It’s the Luke Northmore conundrum all over again.

as I said, he's developed his all round game a lot. Not sure who is 'massively under-rating him' given he's always in the EPS when fit. World Class, not sure (which other sides would he get into), intl class for sure.

Danno wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:24 am

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:18 am

Danno wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:07 am

Oh cool, more Spencer. Just wonderful.

I don't understand the negativity around Spencer on RR, I think he's really excellent... Better than JVP at this moment (JVP could well develop) in my view.

At Bath yes. In white, no. One of those players that never quite made the step up.

He's never really had a run to establish himself; the most frustrating thing about him has been when slowing the game down when urgency is needed, and tbh that doesn't really suit his style imo

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 12:28 pm Spencer just became more important with JvP's Lions call-up. 'Cover for Gibson-Park' per BBC - temporary, it doesn't say.

About a page late with that one.

JGP apparently has a calf injury, depending on how severe that is will depend on whether we get JvP back or not. Could be slightly good fortune for JvP if it's confirmed early as Farrell won't be able to wait for White to finish the French season. A few weeks later and White might pip JvP to the selection.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 12:39 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 12:28 pm Spencer just became more important with JvP's Lions call-up. 'Cover for Gibson-Park' per BBC - temporary, it doesn't say.

About a page late with that one.

JGP apparently has a calf injury, depending on how severe that is will depend on whether we get JvP back or not. Could be slightly good fortune for JvP if it's confirmed early as Farrell won't be able to wait for White to finish the French season. A few weeks later and White might pip JvP to the selection.

Could turn out to be very unlucky for JVP. We have only 3 scrum halves in the squad for France so presume he would be picked (I thought we weren’t going to select players from prem final?) and now with him missing training he will likely miss out.

That could lead to him missing out in Argentina and then subsequently being further back in the queue when Mitchell returns.

Running around in training a bit for the lions probably not going to benefit him much…

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 12:42 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 12:39 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 12:28 pm Spencer just became more important with JvP's Lions call-up. 'Cover for Gibson-Park' per BBC - temporary, it doesn't say.

About a page late with that one.

JGP apparently has a calf injury, depending on how severe that is will depend on whether we get JvP back or not. Could be slightly good fortune for JvP if it's confirmed early as Farrell won't be able to wait for White to finish the French season. A few weeks later and White might pip JvP to the selection.

Could turn out to be very unlucky for JVP. We have only 3 scrum halves in the squad for France so presume he would be picked (I thought we weren’t going to select players from prem final?) and now with him missing training he will likely miss out.

That could lead to him missing out in Argentina and then subsequently being further back in the queue when Mitchell returns.

Running around in training a bit for the lions probably not going to benefit him much…

Doubt it. We just don't have the quality in depth at scrum half. Harry Randall is in the rehab group instead of being given the summer off just as a proof in point. Quirke who's form has been all over the place recently is also in there along with Spencer who's tended to look like international rugby is a step above his level.

The Lions is a great opportunity to train with players he'd never normally get it work with, Tomos Williams, JGP (is rehabbing in camp I believe), Fin Russell, Ali, Tuipolotu those experienced operators in the backs he can learn from for a few days, maybe longer.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 12:34 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:28 am I still think Underhill is massively underrated with the ball in hand. His running style, angles and little tip-on passes seem pretty hard for defences to deal with. He might not get over the ball as much as we’d like, but boy does he thump opponents in the breakdown.

I think he’s absolutely world class, and seems to lift his game for the big occasions, but can he be relied upon to be available? It’s the Luke Northmore conundrum all over again.

as I said, he's developed his all round game a lot. Not sure who is 'massively under-rating him' given he's always in the EPS when fit. World Class, not sure (which other sides would he get into), intl class for sure.

I wasn’t doubting you had noted it, but I don’t think the view of him being a one-dimensional tackle-droid is that uncommon. Obviously selectors see past that.

I should definitely have qualified World Class with ‘on his day’, as there have been significant gaps in his England resume so far. Even his biggest fans agree his body might not be up to a whole lot more at the top level, at least not consistently enough to keep him ahead of the other flank contenders.

Kenningham is an interesting one. Not quite the hitter Underhill is (few are) but hits hard and has that mongrel to him, with a bit more of a rounded game and a good lineout presence. I still think he might not have that point of difference to get much England time ahead of a Pollock or Earl though.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 3:25 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 12:34 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:28 am I still think Underhill is massively underrated with the ball in hand. His running style, angles and little tip-on passes seem pretty hard for defences to deal with. He might not get over the ball as much as we’d like, but boy does he thump opponents in the breakdown.

I think he’s absolutely world class, and seems to lift his game for the big occasions, but can he be relied upon to be available? It’s the Luke Northmore conundrum all over again.

as I said, he's developed his all round game a lot. Not sure who is 'massively under-rating him' given he's always in the EPS when fit. World Class, not sure (which other sides would he get into), intl class for sure.

I wasn’t doubting you had noted it, but I don’t think the view of him being a one-dimensional tackle-droid is that uncommon. Obviously selectors see past that.

I should definitely have qualified World Class with ‘on his day’, as there have been significant gaps in his England resume so far. Even his biggest fans agree his body might not be up to a whole lot more at the top level, at least not consistently enough to keep him ahead of the other flank contenders.

Kenningham is an interesting one. Not quite the hitter Underhill is (few are) but hits hard and has that mongrel to him, with a bit more of a rounded game and a good lineout presence. I still think he might not have that point of difference to get much England time ahead of a Pollock or Earl though.

depends on his ceiling. He is pretty tall . I like him, but again, development hampered by injury...and CCS one suspects.

I guess you are right on Underhill, the big hitting usp has drowned out his clear improvements in all round play.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:23 am

jngf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 10:31 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 5:59 pm
You really over rate Underhill- he's very good, but a tad one dimensional still. He hits hard, and has improved his ground work and even links play sometimes. But, hitting hard is a minimum standard. When Pollock hits 21 (:)) come back to us, as you allude to, his versatility is impressive, especially for his age....and if you are actually wanting to develop, a much better bet v not available that much but very good Underhill (1 try in 40 intls is on the low side for a 7, you'd think)

Not sure I that I do tbh He’s arguably been the best tackler in world rugby for a decade and pound for pound one of the most powerful back rows England have ever fielded. For me he pocesses a physical and power edge over either of the Curry twins at 7 , and only Jack Willis is in the same class in terms of ability, albeit their styles differ. No doubt Pollock will take over the mantle in a few years time but he’s not the finished article yet.

Jngf - I am a huge fan of Underhill, I absolutely get people picking him as 1st choice 7 (I wouldn't) - but aside from his absolutely world class tackling (a big factor I grant you) you can't say that he's having more impact on games than Tom Curry and he doesn't bring the carrying threat of Earl, Pollock. He also won't turnover as much as ball as Pepper I'd guess. When you say 'pound for pound most powerful' - that's a tough one... As a tackler absolutely, but surely in carrying terms Earl would trump him, no? Earl is a powerful carrier and is a smaller man than Underhill. By the way I think at this moment I'm a 6 Hill, 7 T Curry man... although let's face it 6 Curry, 7 Earl, 8 Willis has confused some of us as it was rather fine in the 6ns...

Dasher, the carrying thing is interesting - my take is that Earl is fantastic and exiting to watch when he gets an open field break or explodes off the back of a scrum ball in hand and I think Pollock has that same quality. What I’m less sure about is if that actually equates to being a powerful carrier - I’ve noticed that Earl and for that matter T Curry get stopped dead in their tracks, when having to carry directly into contact - in comparison players like Tom Willis and CCS can punch holes through such defence, whilst Underhill isn’t as a prolific a carrier when he does do it he does take quite a bit more stopping than either Earl or T Curry and I think that indicates he’s the more powerful player. I’ve heard match commentators allude to Underhill being one of the most powerful ball carriers in the squad so I guess this is a shared perception by some of us.