RugbyRebels

cashead wrote:

Digby wrote:I know a little about the Daughters of the Confederacy, and that little would be enough to suggest it's not my cup of tea. But if we're going to start letting things get destroyed because some people take issue with them it's a slippery slope, society just cannot function in that manner. It's almost immaterial what the property is, for instance I don't like gun stores, but I don't think people with legal businesses should be attacked just because I don't like them, nor reporters from news channels I don't like attacked. And the violence does spread, police stations have come under attack, fire departments, private businesses

There's a difference between a "gun store" or any other such private business being burned down, and a lobby group that literally glorifies historic racism, with ties to white supremacist organisations, or a reporter that signal-boosts for a racist thug in the white house being subjected to an attack during a protest precipitated by a series of incidents informed by blatant racism and white privilege.

It has nothing to do with whether I like them or not (and for the record, Fox News and the Daughters of the Confederacy are scum) - it's a reaction to their presence, the consequence of their actions and the fact that at least one of those two groups shouldn't even exist in the first place.

Nor do I see how police stations coming under attack should garner any sympathy when they are an institution that has done its level best to not only uphold a broken status quo, but have disproportionately targeted black citizens with little to no repurcussions unless preceded by an outcry.

Lamenting the destruction of confederate property highlights just how little you seem to understand what's happening.

Puja wrote:More stories of police and National Guard just unnecessarily escalating:







Puja

cashead wrote:
Do you think there hasn't been any sort of peaceful protest over social conditions that allows organisations like the Daughters of the Confederacy to not only thrive, but be allowed to distort history and glorify the racist South, leading to statues of a cunt like Robert E Lee to be built in Union states and states that didn't even exist during the Civil War?

What do you think the "taking a knee" movement was? Taking a knee during the national anthem to protest police brutality seemed peaceful enough to me, and look where that got Colin Kaepernik. Do you think that #blacklivesmatter was born this week? You're arguing as if there is some sort of equity between races in the United States, when that has demonstrably been proven time and time again to not be the case. Peaceful protests have either been ignored, shouted down or silenced through violence. Getting their own into the highest office in the land got them nowhere.

Sandydragon wrote:Enough of the racist allegations.

Mikey Brown wrote:Christ. I hadn't even seen that another unarmed man has been killed by Police last night and now this?

Digby wrote:

cashead wrote:
Do you think there hasn't been any sort of peaceful protest over social conditions that allows organisations like the Daughters of the Confederacy to not only thrive, but be allowed to distort history and glorify the racist South, leading to statues of a cunt like Robert E Lee to be built in Union states and states that didn't even exist during the Civil War?

What do you think the "taking a knee" movement was? Taking a knee during the national anthem to protest police brutality seemed peaceful enough to me, and look where that got Colin Kaepernik. Do you think that #blacklivesmatter was born this week? You're arguing as if there is some sort of equity between races in the United States, when that has demonstrably been proven time and time again to not be the case. Peaceful protests have either been ignored, shouted down or silenced through violence. Getting their own into the highest office in the land got them nowhere.

Just because peaceful protesting hasn't worked, or being more specific hasn't worked yet, doesn't entitle an individual or group to switch to aggressive protests. And I'm not arguing there's equity nor anything close, but there has been some progress even if they have been many steps backwards too, and the violence detracts from the progress.

What happened to Kaepernick doesn't seem that bad, I rather liked the movement that saw players and others taking a knee, I don't like that some players then found getting new contracts problematic though at least in Kaepernick's case it seems only to have boosted his earnings, but I merely conclude their protest is a work in progress. What's happened and what's happening isn't fair, but the only path forward I see that looks acceptable is more peaceful protests, and that probably means slow progress and still more setbacks to come.

Two queries however. I'm going to assume you've been critical of governments not doing enough to lockdown during this pandemic, my apologies if I've misread your sticking it to the establishment virtue signalling world view, given that do you take issue with the protesters period for going out and help increase the rate of infections or are you arguing against the double standard of racial equality by supporting double standards elsewhere? Also if you're against peaceful protests because they don't work what actions based on violence have worked, are there large bodies of successful violence I'm overlooking in my concerns about such?

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:This is how you communicate your inability to grasp context and appropriate focus with a stunningly restricted vocabulary. Imagine being compelled to indulge this fucking idiot in the middle of managing acute public health, economic and social crises. Stay out of the kitchen Mr. Trump as you very clearly cannot stand the heat. Why the fuck is this muppet even remotely considered an option in the upcoming election? Beyond sick of this shit.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... s.amp.html

What in the name of fuck was that that I just listened to. What.

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote:

Digby wrote:

cashead wrote:
Do you think there hasn't been any sort of peaceful protest over social conditions that allows organisations like the Daughters of the Confederacy to not only thrive, but be allowed to distort history and glorify the racist South, leading to statues of a cunt like Robert E Lee to be built in Union states and states that didn't even exist during the Civil War?

What do you think the "taking a knee" movement was? Taking a knee during the national anthem to protest police brutality seemed peaceful enough to me, and look where that got Colin Kaepernik. Do you think that #blacklivesmatter was born this week? You're arguing as if there is some sort of equity between races in the United States, when that has demonstrably been proven time and time again to not be the case. Peaceful protests have either been ignored, shouted down or silenced through violence. Getting their own into the highest office in the land got them nowhere.

Just because peaceful protesting hasn't worked, or being more specific hasn't worked yet, doesn't entitle an individual or group to switch to aggressive protests. And I'm not arguing there's equity nor anything close, but there has been some progress even if they have been many steps backwards too, and the violence detracts from the progress.

What happened to Kaepernick doesn't seem that bad, I rather liked the movement that saw players and others taking a knee, I don't like that some players then found getting new contracts problematic though at least in Kaepernick's case it seems only to have boosted his earnings, but I merely conclude their protest is a work in progress. What's happened and what's happening isn't fair, but the only path forward I see that looks acceptable is more peaceful protests, and that probably means slow progress and still more setbacks to come.

Two queries however. I'm going to assume you've been critical of governments not doing enough to lockdown during this pandemic, my apologies if I've misread your sticking it to the establishment virtue signalling world view, given that do you take issue with the protesters period for going out and help increase the rate of infections or are you arguing against the double standard of racial equality by supporting double standards elsewhere? Also if you're against peaceful protests because they don't work what actions based on violence have worked, are there large bodies of successful violence I'm overlooking in my concerns about such?

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Enough of the racist allegations.

So here's the thing...

It really does depend on what you consider racism?

Is racism just the act of being overtly racist?

Or is enabling racists, not standing up and saying "this is wrong" also racist?

I tend to come down on the latter side. Which means, in my book, Digby's reaction was racist.

It's insanely important every single person stands up and condemns racism immediately and without couching it. By putting a "but" in there, you're giving systemic racism a chance to spread, to evolve and to get worse.

And it is getting worse.

Racism, sexism, homophobia...

We're meant to be living in an age that is more accepting of other people, it's global. But outside a few pockets, people are routinely treated incredibly different because of their race, religion, sexual preference, or even their fucking sex!

It's insane, it's wrong, and if you find any way to couch your condemnation, you are part of the problem.

Digby wrote:

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Enough of the racist allegations.

So here's the thing...

It really does depend on what you consider racism?

Is racism just the act of being overtly racist?

Or is enabling racists, not standing up and saying "this is wrong" also racist?

I tend to come down on the latter side. Which means, in my book, Digby's reaction was racist.

It's insanely important every single person stands up and condemns racism immediately and without couching it. By putting a "but" in there, you're giving systemic racism a chance to spread, to evolve and to get worse.

And it is getting worse.

Racism, sexism, homophobia...

We're meant to be living in an age that is more accepting of other people, it's global. But outside a few pockets, people are routinely treated incredibly different because of their race, religion, sexual preference, or even their fucking sex!

It's insane, it's wrong, and if you find any way to couch your condemnation, you are part of the problem.

It's getting better and worse. On balance I'd suggest things are getting better, albeit too slowly. I'm not sure what you mean by couching condemnation, partly because there are so many different acts led by so many different actors it's tricky to lump them together and assign one over-arching description. I certainly don't share the view that regretting the violence is or should be equated with racism, and I don't share the view that saying destruction is wrong enables racism, not least as many of the most violent acts would be owned by the racists and bigots of society.

Dear modern Left,

Just stop playing these games. Non-violent resistance is not wrong *now* just because Trump didn’t listen to Kaepernick & others *back then*. Just as it was not wrong *then*, when MLK faced police violence and persevered.

Our moral compass must not revolve around opposing the last position Trump took just to score points & satisfy our narcissism by playing to our petty echo chambers.

We minorities are not pawns in your petty left/right politicking.

This is effectively a betrayal of minorities, and it delivers us straight into Putin’s and Xi’s playbook. By refusing to draw a clear moral line at the violence in your unoriginal, predictable & recycled punditry, you ensure that middle America remains convinced of the perception of the violent black man and violent Muslim, and only the hard right, and populist Trump benefits from that.
‪
I am a survivor of the War on Terror. ‬I observed in horror from my Egyptian prison cell as America used 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iraq. I have seen how violence hijacked our Islamist utopianism, and after I abandoned that misguided ideology, I watched with increasing despair at how violence destroyed our dreams during the Arab Spring. Violence only ever leads to more and more state tyranny, by providing pretext for more and more draconian security laws. ‬

Why is this not obvious to people?

Our way is the way of Mahatma, Madiba, Martin, Malik al-Shabaaz & Marley. We do not need your Marx nor your Mao.
Non-violent resistance is the only moral and ethical and practical way forward #BlackLivesMatter

Stom wrote:
I'm saying that, considering what is coming to light with people trying to frame the black protestors, talking about the violence in the same breath as police brutality is wrong.

It is not part of the same discussion. They have no other choice. They are being marginalised like hell, beaten and sprayed with chemical weapons...

Of course they're going to be angry And rightly so.

There should be no room for discussion on minor details here, that's what the racists want you to do. If you focus on the minutiae, you can so easily forget about the big picture. If you are whipped into a frenzy of "these people shouldn't be destroying property", you're going to forget the point.

That's what Fox want you to do. That's what Trump, Pence, the white landowners in the US want you to do. To concentrate on the little details so you forget this is all because an entire group of people are being marginalised and treated like slaves.

It needs to stop.

Digby wrote:

Stom wrote:
I'm saying that, considering what is coming to light with people trying to frame the black protestors, talking about the violence in the same breath as police brutality is wrong.

It is not part of the same discussion. They have no other choice. They are being marginalised like hell, beaten and sprayed with chemical weapons...

Of course they're going to be angry And rightly so.

There should be no room for discussion on minor details here, that's what the racists want you to do. If you focus on the minutiae, you can so easily forget about the big picture. If you are whipped into a frenzy of "these people shouldn't be destroying property", you're going to forget the point.

That's what Fox want you to do. That's what Trump, Pence, the white landowners in the US want you to do. To concentrate on the little details so you forget this is all because an entire group of people are being marginalised and treated like slaves.

It needs to stop.

Those undertaking the violence and the looting, and that's probably the extreme right as well as the extreme left and those against racial prejudice, do have other choices if the aim is to lesson the unfair treatment in society. And violence and looting and not minor details, though there is room to stress more the sheer numbers who are peacefully protesting and not engaging in social disorder.

As Obama noted in the speech or essay that Morepork linked the voter turnout at local level is really low. If groups seeking change want actual change then registering voters and casting their votes is a significant way to start making some real change. Given the apathy around voting in local and state elections they could probably start to achieve results well beyond their actual numbers.

I don't know as an aside if anyone caught the comments from the Houston Police Chief, but I thought he spoke rather well when asked about some of Trump's comments:

Houston police chief Acevedo was asked to respond to the leaked call, by CNN’s Christiane Amanpour, who put the question to Acevedo whether it was the right environment for “police today to go out and dominate”.


Acevedo told CNN, “Let me just say this to the President of the United States on behalf of the police chief's in this country, please, if you don't have something constructive to say, keep your mouth shut because you're putting men and women in their early 20s at risk.”

“This is not about dominating. It's about winning hearts and minds. And let's be clear. We do not want people to confuse kindness with weakness.”

He spoke about the need for leadership, criticising Trump’s message of dominance instead calling for communities to “stand together”.

“We don't want ignorance to ruin what we've got here in Houston and speaking for my colleagues across the country where their officers are being injured, community members are being injured,” he said.

“It’s time to be presidential and not try to be like you're on The Apprentice. This is not Hollywood. This is real life, and real lives are at risk.”

Acevedo says it’s time to “shift this [action] to where it needs to be -- the voting booth.” He cites the reason for the protests was because too many people who are “damaging property never bothered to vote.”

In the 2016 US Presidential election, the black voter turnout fell for the first time in 20 years to 59.6 per cent -- despite recording an all time high of 66.6 per cent in the previous presidential election in 2012.

However, prior to the election 14 states implemented new voting restrictions which included; restricting voter registration, strict voter ID requirements and limiting early voting.

Federal judges found Republicans in the state of North Carolina suppressed black voter turnout with “surgical precision”.

“Let's engage and let's do what we can control which is our own actions, our own hearts and exercise without fail our right to vote”

Avecodo has called on protesters, “You have a choice, lift up your voice, be heard in the voting booth and continue to march peacefully. So the focus remains on bad policing, criminal policing.”

He says the inequality in America is “not just about policing, it’s about society.” He references education, health, access to food -- and “everything that we as human beings, hold near and dear.”

“So please, please don't, don't react to [Trump].

Instead Avecodo says: “The only thing that will happen to overcome hate is love, and love and engagement. Let's engage and let's do what we can control, which is our own actions, our own hearts and exercise without failing our right to vote.”

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Enough of the racist allegations.

So here's the thing...

It really does depend on what you consider racism?

Is racism just the act of being overtly racist?

Or is enabling racists, not standing up and saying "this is wrong" also racist?

I tend to come down on the latter side. Which means, in my book, Digby's reaction was racist.

It's insanely important every single person stands up and condemns racism immediately and without couching it. By putting a "but" in there, you're giving systemic racism a chance to spread, to evolve and to get worse.

And it is getting worse.

Racism, sexism, homophobia...

We're meant to be living in an age that is more accepting of other people, it's global. But outside a few pockets, people are routinely treated incredibly different because of their race, religion, sexual preference, or even their fucking sex!

It's insane, it's wrong, and if you find any way to couch your condemnation, you are part of the problem.

Stom wrote:
It's enabling.

You're lucky to live in the UK, where the level of racism has decreased to underlying tutting and shadowed eyes (perhaps built into the two-faced nature of the British middle class - speaking as a former member myself).

Racism and sexism are linked. They're both perpetrated by a group who sees themselves as superior to the other, oppressed group, and feels threatened by them, so lashes out.

And when you see it every day, be it police violence against black men, domestic violence against women, institutionalised racism preventing gypsy children from getting a good education, and so on...

It becomes more of a problem in your mind.

Sandydragon wrote:

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Enough of the racist allegations.

So here's the thing...

It really does depend on what you consider racism?

Is racism just the act of being overtly racist?

Or is enabling racists, not standing up and saying "this is wrong" also racist?

I tend to come down on the latter side. Which means, in my book, Digby's reaction was racist.

It's insanely important every single person stands up and condemns racism immediately and without couching it. By putting a "but" in there, you're giving systemic racism a chance to spread, to evolve and to get worse.

And it is getting worse.

Racism, sexism, homophobia...

We're meant to be living in an age that is more accepting of other people, it's global. But outside a few pockets, people are routinely treated incredibly different because of their race, religion, sexual preference, or even their fucking sex!

It's insane, it's wrong, and if you find any way to couch your condemnation, you are part of the problem.

Do not label fellow posters as racist. It’s that simple. If you feel someone is being racist make a complaint.

Digby wrote:

Stom wrote:
It's enabling.

You're lucky to live in the UK, where the level of racism has decreased to underlying tutting and shadowed eyes (perhaps built into the two-faced nature of the British middle class - speaking as a former member myself).

Racism and sexism are linked. They're both perpetrated by a group who sees themselves as superior to the other, oppressed group, and feels threatened by them, so lashes out.

And when you see it every day, be it police violence against black men, domestic violence against women, institutionalised racism preventing gypsy children from getting a good education, and so on...

It becomes more of a problem in your mind.

I will happily agree living in the UK is a fortunate position looking around the globe. We're going to go down different paths of thinking on whether the more combative response is justified and whether it's more helpful than a a more strategised non violent approach, and we'll also think differently around how enabling certain responses are

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Stom wrote:
So here's the thing...

It really does depend on what you consider racism?

Is racism just the act of being overtly racist?

Or is enabling racists, not standing up and saying "this is wrong" also racist?

I tend to come down on the latter side. Which means, in my book, Digby's reaction was racist.

It's insanely important every single person stands up and condemns racism immediately and without couching it. By putting a "but" in there, you're giving systemic racism a chance to spread, to evolve and to get worse.

And it is getting worse.

Racism, sexism, homophobia...

We're meant to be living in an age that is more accepting of other people, it's global. But outside a few pockets, people are routinely treated incredibly different because of their race, religion, sexual preference, or even their fucking sex!

It's insane, it's wrong, and if you find any way to couch your condemnation, you are part of the problem.

Do not label fellow posters as racist. It’s that simple. If you feel someone is being racist make a complaint.

Hence labelling the post as such, not the poster. And I think it's a discussion worth having. Though I wouldn't go out and simply call someone a racist without asking for them to be banned. Which I have done. And he was banned.