RugbyRebels

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:
That's peanuts. Even before ongoing payments to the EU are sorted, the divorce bill is sorted, and the impact to trade is felt we'll easily top a billion in the administration costs of Brexit. Mind given we've pretty much 2 years of parliament given over to Brexit it's hardly insightful to note it'll be an expensive old time.

As you got self say, it's reshuffling the chairs on the deck rather than moving them on to a new boat. Hence my point was more the cost of each new administration fumbling around the edges of stuff to create a shiny new department that are mostly rebadged existing departments. In the grand scheme of things £15m may be peanuts, and I certainly wasn't saying it's expensive in the context of Brexit, but multiply it across all the new departments created in the last ten years and you've sorted capital expenditure in schools across a fair few cities.

but this happens in all major ops. they cost money to run of themselves.

I don't know how many times as a for instance I've been part of an office where we've suddenly moved to a new bank of desks, had desk space reduced and extra desks added, had new offices go up, moved to a new floor, moved to a new building, had teams merge, had teams diverge, had some staff secluded off/ringfenced (even put behind the sometimes literal chinese wall)

I don't really know how one avoids such costs unless an organisation simply makes no changes.

In saying that I do consider too many managers make changes simply so they feel they've done something, and often the better decision would have been to do nothing. But when you look at what gets people promoted it's not typically a more coherent long term strategy, its shouting and making supposed short term advances

All very true, but your initial reaction was that they've just amalgamated a few existing teams, given it a fancy title and put an idiot in charge. So, I was just pointing out that £15m-ish is a lot to pay to achieve what you view as virtually nothing.
I was merely trying to add weight to your point. Not set off a discussion about waste across the UK business community.

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: As you got self say, it's reshuffling the chairs on the deck rather than moving them on to a new boat. Hence my point was more the cost of each new administration fumbling around the edges of stuff to create a shiny new department that are mostly rebadged existing departments. In the grand scheme of things £15m may be peanuts, and I certainly wasn't saying it's expensive in the context of Brexit, but multiply it across all the new departments created in the last ten years and you've sorted capital expenditure in schools across a fair few cities.

but this happens in all major ops. they cost money to run of themselves.

I don't know how many times as a for instance I've been part of an office where we've suddenly moved to a new bank of desks, had desk space reduced and extra desks added, had new offices go up, moved to a new floor, moved to a new building, had teams merge, had teams diverge, had some staff secluded off/ringfenced (even put behind the sometimes literal chinese wall)

I don't really know how one avoids such costs unless an organisation simply makes no changes.

In saying that I do consider too many managers make changes simply so they feel they've done something, and often the better decision would have been to do nothing. But when you look at what gets people promoted it's not typically a more coherent long term strategy, its shouting and making supposed short term advances

All very true, but your initial reaction was that they've just amalgamated a few existing teams, given it a fancy title and put an idiot in charge. So, I was just pointing out that £15m-ish is a lot to pay to achieve what you view as virtually nothing.
I was merely trying to add weight to your point. Not set off a discussion about waste across the UK business community.

If they hadn't found a way to piss £15million up the wall on setting up a new department it'd have been something else. I don't think a certain amount of waste is avoidable, it's just what happens.

Like any marriage turned sour its going to be expensive, the quicker its done the better, we should never have got involved in the first place, we were conned into it.
Stop making payments to the EU, pull up the drawbridge and tell them to fuck off, they are making a right meal out of it.

Weird for someone who campaigned for remain, but it would appear that only Theresa was against guaranteeing the rights of Eu citizens already in the UK after the brexit vote.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.indepe ... html%3Famp

Does she have any opinions of her own, or just agree with whatever the polls are telling her is most popular on any given day?

canta_brian wrote:Weird for someone who campaigned for remain, but it would appear that only Theresa was against guaranteeing the rights of Eu citizens already in the UK after the brexit vote.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.indepe ... html%3Famp

Does she have any opinions of her own, or just agree with whatever the polls are telling her is most popular on any given day?

She's a pragmatist. It makes no negotiating sense to guarantee rights unilaterally or to make a broad statement of a guarantee without any idea what the limits should be. She's playing the stupid hand she's been given with as much logic as she can muster. It would of course be better to not play it at all but there we go.

I wouldn't guarantee fuck all, I'd keep them all all edge, "well yes maybe, if your good, and have a job, we'll see how it goes, maybe you can stay"

Lord Lucan wrote:I wouldn't guarantee fuck all, I'd keep them all all edge, "well yes maybe, if your good, and have a job, we'll see how it goes, maybe you can stay"

Yes but you're an idiot.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

canta_brian wrote:Weird for someone who campaigned for remain, but it would appear that only Theresa was against guaranteeing the rights of Eu citizens already in the UK after the brexit vote.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.indepe ... html%3Famp

Does she have any opinions of her own, or just agree with whatever the polls are telling her is most popular on any given day?

She's a pragmatist. It makes no negotiating sense to guarantee rights unilaterally or to make a broad statement of a guarantee without any idea what the limits should be. She's playing the stupid hand she's been given with as much logic as she can muster. It would of course be better to not play it at all but there we go.

quite.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

canta_brian wrote:Weird for someone who campaigned for remain, but it would appear that only Theresa was against guaranteeing the rights of Eu citizens already in the UK after the brexit vote.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.indepe ... html%3Famp

Does she have any opinions of her own, or just agree with whatever the polls are telling her is most popular on any given day?

She's a pragmatist. It makes no negotiating sense to guarantee rights unilaterally or to make a broad statement of a guarantee without any idea what the limits should be. She's playing the stupid hand she's been given with as much logic as she can muster. It would of course be better to not play it at all but there we go.

Exactly. Explaining every move, counter move and objective to the entire population would be self-defeating. Perhaps time a few people realised that and worked out how best to support the efforts at Brexit rather than just chuck rocks from the sidelines.

Like it or not, its happening and if this current climate continues then the likelihood is that we will end up in a far worse place than we might otherwise be.

Sandydragon wrote:[1.]Exactly. Explaining every move, counter move and objective to the entire population would be self-defeating.
[2.]Perhaps time a few people realised that and worked out how best to support the efforts at Brexit rather than just chuck rocks from the sidelines.

[3.]Like it or not, its happening and if this current climate continues then the likelihood is that we will end up in a far worse place than we might otherwise be.

[1.] Yep, I don't like the strategy we appeasr to be using; but we don't need it spelled out - and with the chosen strategy, spelling things would actively undermine it.
[2.] Yeah, that'll make so much difference. So much difference in fact, that we should all become blind followers and supportive of things we disapprove of because our input in random rugby forum #6 will completely undermine the negotiations.
Alternatively, we've had our say, and we don't get another one. Anything said by Joe Bloggs now is utterly immaterial.
[3.] Yes, we know it's happening, and the current climate will make no difference to anything anymore. Publicly approving of things we don't approve of won't change anything for the better, and publicly disapproving of things we do approve of won't make things any worse... except for setting a really bad precedent of shutting down opposing voices.

Which Tyler wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:[1.]Exactly. Explaining every move, counter move and objective to the entire population would be self-defeating.
[2.]Perhaps time a few people realised that and worked out how best to support the efforts at Brexit rather than just chuck rocks from the sidelines.

[3.]Like it or not, its happening and if this current climate continues then the likelihood is that we will end up in a far worse place than we might otherwise be.

[1.] Yep, I don't like the strategy we appeasr to be using; but we don't need it spelled out - and with the chosen strategy, spelling things would actively undermine it.
[2.] Yeah, that'll make so much difference. So much difference in fact, that we should all become blind followers and supportive of things we disapprove of because our input in random rugby forum #6 will completely undermine the negotiations.
Alternatively, we've had our say, and we don't get another one. Anything said by Joe Bloggs now is utterly immaterial.
[3.] Yes, we know it's happening, and the current climate will make no difference to anything anymore. Publicly approving of things we don't approve of won't change anything for the better, and publicly disapproving of things we do approve of won't make things any worse... except for setting a really bad precedent of shutting down opposing voices.

Think SD might have been referring more to the politicians/'experts'/journos who just keep having a go at the Government
about anything & everything to do with the negotiations

to cheer us all up

http://newsthump.com/2016/06/22/growing ... ntry-back/

Banquo wrote:to cheer us all up

I don't want cheering up. I'd rather it failed in spectacular style and those who once advocated for Brexit were burnt at the stake.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:to cheer us all up

I don't want cheering up. I'd rather it failed in spectacular style and those who once advocated for Brexit were burnt at the stake.

indeed....especially those I know who should have known better. Amongst the many fall outs of the highly divisive and abusive campaign has been the seeming acceptance that tolerance, common sense, telling the truth, and being calm and measured about anything are all.....off the table.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:to cheer us all up

I don't want cheering up. I'd rather it failed in spectacular style and those who once advocated for Brexit were burnt at the stake.

What preparations are being made for it? At the latest, it will come into effect in about 20 months time, and unless we are going for some transitional period, we are going to need, at the very least:
1. An enhanced immigration service to administer whatever new system (points based?) that is to be implemented
2. Enhancements to Border Force to police the above system, including at the least exit controls in addition KTL the current entry controls.
3. A greatly enlarged HMRC to deal with whatever customs and tariffs regime we end up with
4. A proper fisheries protection fleet to police our newly sovereign maritime Economic Zone.
5. A new Civil Service department to monitor and track changes to European Law, so that these changes can be introduced as amendments to the Repeal Act.

All of these things are going to take time for establishment and recruitment, and in the case of the fisheries protection, tender, design, build and commissioning of vessels, and there ain't much time left. On top of that, I feel that this list only scratches the surface - I'm sure there's plenty I've missed, and yet there is no sign the Government is doing any of it.

Sandydragon wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

canta_brian wrote:Weird for someone who campaigned for remain, but it would appear that only Theresa was against guaranteeing the rights of Eu citizens already in the UK after the brexit vote.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.indepe ... html%3Famp

Does she have any opinions of her own, or just agree with whatever the polls are telling her is most popular on any given day?

She's a pragmatist. It makes no negotiating sense to guarantee rights unilaterally or to make a broad statement of a guarantee without any idea what the limits should be. She's playing the stupid hand she's been given with as much logic as she can muster. It would of course be better to not play it at all but there we go.

Exactly. Explaining every move, counter move and objective to the entire population would be self-defeating. Perhaps time a few people realised that and worked out how best to support the efforts at Brexit rather than just chuck rocks from the sidelines.

Like it or not, its happening and if this current climate continues then the likelihood is that we will end up in a far worse place than we might otherwise be.

i'm going to call bullshit on this. We'll end up in a rubbish place because we have no hand to play. The fate of our ex pats is politically sensitive but not very important in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand the fate of the EU citizens in the country is massively important to us economically but only politically interesting to the EU. They can use it as a proxy to see just how shite we are at negotiation and the answer is very.

I refuse to accept that this is happening and see no reason why I or anyone else shouldn't throw as many fucking rocks as they can to bring the whole aedifice of Brexit down.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
She's a pragmatist. It makes no negotiating sense to guarantee rights unilaterally or to make a broad statement of a guarantee without any idea what the limits should be. She's playing the stupid hand she's been given with as much logic as she can muster. It would of course be better to not play it at all but there we go.

Exactly. Explaining every move, counter move and objective to the entire population would be self-defeating. Perhaps time a few people realised that and worked out how best to support the efforts at Brexit rather than just chuck rocks from the sidelines.

Like it or not, its happening and if this current climate continues then the likelihood is that we will end up in a far worse place than we might otherwise be.

i'm going to call bullshit on this. We'll end up in a rubbish place because we have no hand to play. The fate of our ex pats is politically sensitive but not very important in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand the fate of the EU citizens in the country is massively important to us economically but only politically interesting to the EU. They can use it as a proxy to see just how shite we are at negotiation and the answer is very.

I refuse to accept that this is happening and see no reason why I or anyone else shouldn't throw as many fucking rocks as they can to bring the whole aedifice of Brexit down.

Best bet is to bring May's govt down....but then there would be another election, unless Corbers does a deal with devils. We'd have to call a halt to Brexit.....

Banquo wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: Exactly. Explaining every move, counter move and objective to the entire population would be self-defeating. Perhaps time a few people realised that and worked out how best to support the efforts at Brexit rather than just chuck rocks from the sidelines.

Like it or not, its happening and if this current climate continues then the likelihood is that we will end up in a far worse place than we might otherwise be.

i'm going to call bullshit on this. We'll end up in a rubbish place because we have no hand to play. The fate of our ex pats is politically sensitive but not very important in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand the fate of the EU citizens in the country is massively important to us economically but only politically interesting to the EU. They can use it as a proxy to see just how shite we are at negotiation and the answer is very.

I refuse to accept that this is happening and see no reason why I or anyone else shouldn't throw as many fucking rocks as they can to bring the whole aedifice of Brexit down.

Best bet is to bring May's govt down....but then there would be another election, unless Corbers does a deal with devils. We'd have to call a halt to Brexit.....

Corbyn appears sufficiently delusional to try to run a minority administration. The Lib Dems have sworn they won't join a coalition and the price of even confidence and supply is to have a 2nd referendum which Corbyn won't want. The Nats won't support Corbyn without a commitment on Indyref 2 and I think Corbyn is likely to be talked out of that offer. There won't be another election until the Tories get a new leader in place at the earliest and the likelihood is that that would see another swing in the polls that would mean Labour suddenly reluctant to agree the early election.

At the moment my best bet looks like continued chaos with a strong Lib Dem voice saying "We can avoid the clusterfuck that is Brexit if we just stay. Let's ask the people again". I'd expect them to move an appropriate amendment - or even for there to be an appropriate Private Members Bill. i think there would be considerble support from labour and a fair amount from conservatives.

I have no confidence whatsoever that even with problems starting to come out of Brexit that if the people of the country are asked are you seriously thick as shit racists they will not simply say damn right we are.

Digby wrote:I have no confidence whatsoever that even with problems starting to come out of Brexit that if the people of the country are asked are you seriously thick as shit racists they will not simply say damn right we are.

The demographics suggested that by 2020 remain would win without a single person changing their mind or a change in turn out.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

i'm going to call bullshit on this. We'll end up in a rubbish place because we have no hand to play. The fate of our ex pats is politically sensitive but not very important in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand the fate of the EU citizens in the country is massively important to us economically but only politically interesting to the EU. They can use it as a proxy to see just how shite we are at negotiation and the answer is very.

I refuse to accept that this is happening and see no reason why I or anyone else shouldn't throw as many fucking rocks as they can to bring the whole aedifice of Brexit down.

Best bet is to bring May's govt down....but then there would be another election, unless Corbers does a deal with devils. We'd have to call a halt to Brexit.....

Corbyn appears sufficiently delusional to try to run a minority administration. The Lib Dems have sworn they won't join a coalition and the price of even confidence and supply is to have a 2nd referendum which Corbyn won't want. The Nats won't support Corbyn without a commitment on Indyref 2 and I think Corbyn is likely to be talked out of that offer. There won't be another election until the Tories get a new leader in place at the earliest and the likelihood is that that would see another swing in the polls that would mean Labour suddenly reluctant to agree the early election.

At the moment my best bet looks like continued chaos with a strong Lib Dem voice saying "We can avoid the clusterfuck that is Brexit if we just stay. Let's ask the people again". I'd expect them to move an appropriate amendment - or even for there to be an appropriate Private Members Bill. i think there would be considerble support from labour and a fair amount from conservatives.

strong libdem voice is the flaw in that plan.

voting against Brexit is a tricky one for MP's in leave seats....career v principle/country.

wot a mess, compounded by Corbers wanting out of Europe in his heart and head.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
She's a pragmatist. It makes no negotiating sense to guarantee rights unilaterally or to make a broad statement of a guarantee without any idea what the limits should be. She's playing the stupid hand she's been given with as much logic as she can muster. It would of course be better to not play it at all but there we go.

Exactly. Explaining every move, counter move and objective to the entire population would be self-defeating. Perhaps time a few people realised that and worked out how best to support the efforts at Brexit rather than just chuck rocks from the sidelines.

Like it or not, its happening and if this current climate continues then the likelihood is that we will end up in a far worse place than we might otherwise be.

i'm going to call bullshit on this. We'll end up in a rubbish place because we have no hand to play. The fate of our ex pats is politically sensitive but not very important in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand the fate of the EU citizens in the country is massively important to us economically but only politically interesting to the EU. They can use it as a proxy to see just how shite we are at negotiation and the answer is very.

I refuse to accept that this is happening and see no reason why I or anyone else shouldn't throw as many fucking rocks as they can to bring the whole aedifice of Brexit down.

I'm going g to call wakey wakey on this. Unless there is another referendum, it's happening. Dry your eyes and look for the best possible solution.

As a remainder, I'd rather try to work towards as soft an exit as possible rather that chuck my toys out of the prom.

Banquo wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Banquo wrote: Best bet is to bring May's govt down....but then there would be another election, unless Corbers does a deal with devils. We'd have to call a halt to Brexit.....

Corbyn appears sufficiently delusional to try to run a minority administration. The Lib Dems have sworn they won't join a coalition and the price of even confidence and supply is to have a 2nd referendum which Corbyn won't want. The Nats won't support Corbyn without a commitment on Indyref 2 and I think Corbyn is likely to be talked out of that offer. There won't be another election until the Tories get a new leader in place at the earliest and the likelihood is that that would see another swing in the polls that would mean Labour suddenly reluctant to agree the early election.

At the moment my best bet looks like continued chaos with a strong Lib Dem voice saying "We can avoid the clusterfuck that is Brexit if we just stay. Let's ask the people again". I'd expect them to move an appropriate amendment - or even for there to be an appropriate Private Members Bill. i think there would be considerble support from labour and a fair amount from conservatives.

strong libdem voice is the flaw in that plan.

voting against Brexit is a tricky one for MP's in leave seats....career v principle/country.

wot a mess, compounded by Corbers wanting out of Europe in his heart and head.

Masterpiece campaigning by him though. Just have such a woolly response to anynbrexit questions and wheel our Keir Starmer to sound sensible once in a while and you get left alone as the Tories paint themselves a shard Brexit and labour appeal to the rest of humanity.

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
Corbyn appears sufficiently delusional to try to run a minority administration. The Lib Dems have sworn they won't join a coalition and the price of even confidence and supply is to have a 2nd referendum which Corbyn won't want. The Nats won't support Corbyn without a commitment on Indyref 2 and I think Corbyn is likely to be talked out of that offer. There won't be another election until the Tories get a new leader in place at the earliest and the likelihood is that that would see another swing in the polls that would mean Labour suddenly reluctant to agree the early election.

At the moment my best bet looks like continued chaos with a strong Lib Dem voice saying "We can avoid the clusterfuck that is Brexit if we just stay. Let's ask the people again". I'd expect them to move an appropriate amendment - or even for there to be an appropriate Private Members Bill. i think there would be considerble support from labour and a fair amount from conservatives.

strong libdem voice is the flaw in that plan.

voting against Brexit is a tricky one for MP's in leave seats....career v principle/country.

wot a mess, compounded by Corbers wanting out of Europe in his heart and head.

Masterpiece campaigning by him though. Just have such a woolly response to anynbrexit questions and wheel our Keir Starmer to sound sensible once in a while and you get left alone as the Tories paint themselves a shard Brexit and labour appeal to the rest of humanity.

total genius, best result possible. Labour literally need to nothing but carp, criticise and speak at Glastonbury.

Sandydragon wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: Exactly. Explaining every move, counter move and objective to the entire population would be self-defeating. Perhaps time a few people realised that and worked out how best to support the efforts at Brexit rather than just chuck rocks from the sidelines.

Like it or not, its happening and if this current climate continues then the likelihood is that we will end up in a far worse place than we might otherwise be.

i'm going to call bullshit on this. We'll end up in a rubbish place because we have no hand to play. The fate of our ex pats is politically sensitive but not very important in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand the fate of the EU citizens in the country is massively important to us economically but only politically interesting to the EU. They can use it as a proxy to see just how shite we are at negotiation and the answer is very.

I refuse to accept that this is happening and see no reason why I or anyone else shouldn't throw as many fucking rocks as they can to bring the whole aedifice of Brexit down.

I'm going g to call wakey wakey on this. Unless there is another referendum, it's happening. Dry your eyes and look for the best possible solution.

As a remainder, I'd rather try to work towards as soft an exit as possible rather that chuck my toys out of the prom.

The Conservatives don't have a majority in parliament, and barely a majority amongst MPs for Brexit. No other party has anywhere near a majority in favour of Brexit and most are officially set against every single part of the Brexit that the Conservatives are negotiating for. Further the Brexit vote was won by less and the reality of our weak negotiating position is set to reveal itself. Yet despite all that's happened politically in the past couple of years, you think it's definitely happening? Catch a grip.