Puja wrote:Mellsblue wrote:Puja wrote:
He didn't represent them (or come close to being PM) because of his associations abroad - in fact another leader with the same policies without that baggage probably would've become PM. I don't think this is a lessons learned situation, unless the lesson to be learned is "a large number of people actually like policies that prioritise the many rather than the few", in which case I think Starmer could do with a remedial course.
While Corbyn's definitely wrong here and his obdurate dogmatic pacifism is unsuitable for purpose against a warmonger like Putin, I don't think pacifism as a whole is a bad thing. He's been right more than wrong in protesting against our past foreign adventuring, no matter how badly he's got this situation wrong.
Puja
I’ve just learnt the lesson that people will still defend a man who will choose the West’s enemy over their ally and will repeatedly state we should just let a dictatorship invade a democracy because they liked his domestic policies/campaign slogan.
You cannot divorce the foreign policy and the domestic policy of the (potential) leader of a major economic and military nation. Dare I say it’s very populist, Trumpian even, to defend a person who wants to retreat from the world stage because you like his domestic policies. What would the response be if I came on here and said “I know the Conservative Party has too many links to loaded Russians, that Boris ennobled the son of an ex-KGB officer despite the objections of our intelligence agencies and ruined diplomatic relations with all our allies but a large number of people actually like policies that prioritise the red wall given his landslide general election victory”.
‘Baggage’ is a very polite way of putting it.
99% of the world want pacifism. Sadly, the 1% who don’t mean the 99% have to spend their taxes defending against the intentions of the nutters. It’s cakeism to look at it any other way.
I'm surprised that you have interpreted, "Corbyn's definitely wrong here and his obdurate dogmatic pacifism is unsuitable for purpose against a warmonger like Putin," as "defending a man who will choose the West’s enemy over their ally and will repeatedly state we should just let a dictatorship invade a democracy". I'm very clearly not defending his position on this issue, as was carefully hidden in my wording of "Corbyn's definitely wrong here."
While you cannot divorce the foreign and domestic policy of a potential leader, Corbyn's foreign politics were not what the chunk of the Labour party that followed him were after (in fact a fair few followed in spite of them). Now that he's not a potential leader anymore (or even a member of the Labour party), it seems bizarre to tie them to why he nearly ended up in power and insist lessons must be learned.
Puja
Granted that is criticism of Corbyn but the rest was a whataboutism that his policies were popular enough to come second twice so let’s not worry about his troubling views on foreign policy.
If only Corbyn had only been wrong on just this one - his stance on Ukraine isn’t that dissimilar to his stance he held on the Balkans. Foreign policy isn’t just about not wanting the U.K. to go to war in a foreign country - his cosying up to terrorists elsewhere was foreign policy. See Sandy’s response for more examples. Let us not also forget that many Corbyn supporters, and those sympathetic to him, are quite happy to call Blair a war criminal and state his entire legacy is tarnished by that one decision over Iraq, regardless of correct ones elsewhere. What’s good for the goose….
The leader of the opposition isn’t just the leader of the party in opposition, he is privy to classified information, is called in to meetings on major incidents and if effective, which Corbyn wasn’t, can shape govt policy, including foreign policy. Let’s not forget the leader of the opposition stopped the U.K. intervening in Syria so we were able to helplessly watch Putin and Assad use chemical weapons on innocent people. All of which means lessons must be learned. Luckily the Labour Party learned their lesson and a repeat doesn’t seem likely in the near future. Sadly, the Conservative Party seem not to be learning their lesson and are intent on making Boris MkII their next leader.
