RugbyRebels

What was it that people were protesting about again? Police brutality? No way.

Couple of fine examples of community policing here.

And they probably still imagine they're the freest country in the world.

Sandydragon wrote:Given the scale of the rioting most police forces in the world would be using tear gas to contain it.

The anger behind the rioting is very understandable but the longer it continues the greater the pressure to crack down which risks missing the point. It’s not the fault of the property owners that police allegedly unlawfully killed a black man.

There clearly a need to address the polices attitude to ethnic minorities in the US. But that doesn’t mean that the police there should ignore unlawful behaviour just because there’s outrage.

You're getting things in the wrong order. There are countless videos and reports of peaceful protests that the police have escalated upon. There's been video of police driving past crowds spraying tear gas out of the window, of them using it to change the direction of a march and herd it towards police vans, of them using it directly in the face of someone standing with their hands in the air. The tear gas isn't happening because there are pre-existing riots ex-nihilo (in most cases). The riots are happening because of tear gas. Or the examples in Cashead's videos of mounted police spurring his horse into someone. Or police cars ramming people. Or my example of the police open firing on people standing in their own doorway.

Also, I think we can take the "alleged" out of "unlawfully killed" above. They knelt on his neck, and kept kneeling on it despite him being restrained, despite him complaining that his breathing was restricted, despite him stopping moving and going completely limp. It's on video as an undisputed fact. I think it's gone past alleged, just as the protests have gone past just this one killing.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:



Puja

It's hardly wanton destruction of property, but it is destruction of property, and if you're going to be amused by destruction of property it's a bit weird to decry the loss of some bottles of milk.

Milk is the easiest way to mitigate the damage of tear gas. Given the police have been summarily gassing peaceful protesters all across the country (including children in Seattle, I hear), yes, I am decrying them actively destroying an aid station that was there to help people who had been hurt.

A note, tear gas is banned in warfare by international treaty. It's a chemical weapon. US police are currently spraying it indiscriminately over crowds.

Puja

Not protesting in the face of police who're nervous and trigger happy seems the easiest way to mitigate the risk of tear gas. Nonetheless whilst the police are wrong to be destroying property (even just milk) it doesn't mean destruction of property by the other side is amusing.

Well, it started off peacefully enough here in Philly. There were a couple of hundred people outside city hall taking a knee and observing about 10 minutes silence....really powerful scene. Then everyone marched towards the museum district and into centre city, and things went progressively sideways from there. Property damage was targeted at statues and landmarks that are associated with institutionalised racism and bad policy. In the city, damage was concentrated on the most affluent shopping area, and in a section of town that has become an outrageously expensive gentrified hipster nightmare. It definitely wasn't random. Everything has come to a head. Black and brown people get the shittiest deal in society here and the inequality has been highlighted by the disproportionate impact of covid on these communities. Nationwide mortality among black communities is over twice that for whites. The preposterous logic of tying health care to employment and leaving people hung out to dry is just indefensible at the present. These people have the shittiest jobs with the lowest wages, they are herded out of neighbourhoods by gentrification and subject to a lifetime of harassment by authority. To top it off, cops are murdering and getting away with it. You can kind of understand the anger. Some cops are being very cunty in their response to all this (what a surprise) and the cherry on the top is a chief executive who parrots threats of violence uttered by some of the ugliest figures of authority during the civil rights movement. This in turns brings out the ugly in ignorant white trash that attempt to link all of this to diversity and immigration, completely oblivious of the lessons of the past. It is beyond fucked up, and it will only get worse. America is broken.

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:
It's hardly wanton destruction of property, but it is destruction of property, and if you're going to be amused by destruction of property it's a bit weird to decry the loss of some bottles of milk.

Milk is the easiest way to mitigate the damage of tear gas. Given the police have been summarily gassing peaceful protesters all across the country (including children in Seattle, I hear), yes, I am decrying them actively destroying an aid station that was there to help people who had been hurt.

A note, tear gas is banned in warfare by international treaty. It's a chemical weapon. US police are currently spraying it indiscriminately over crowds.

Puja

Not protesting in the face of police who're nervous and trigger happy seems the easiest way to mitigate the risk of tear gas. Nonetheless whilst the police are wrong to be destroying property (even just milk) it doesn't mean destruction of property by the other side is amusing.

That’s pretty much the same as saying the best way to avoid getting robbed is to not own anything.

cashead wrote:

canta_brian wrote:

Digby wrote:
Not protesting in the face of police who're nervous and trigger happy seems the easiest way to mitigate the risk of tear gas. Nonetheless whilst the police are wrong to be destroying property (even just milk) it doesn't mean destruction of property by the other side is amusing.

That’s pretty much the same as saying the best way to avoid getting robbed is to not own anything.

Maybe George Floyd or Christian Cooper or even Breonna Taylor should have avoided being black. I wonder if they thought about that?

They tried peaceful protests, and that didn’t go anywhere, and now here we are.

Maybe they should have turned themselves inside out. Much as white supremacists hate to admit it we are all blood and guts once you are more than a millimetre deep.

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:
It's hardly wanton destruction of property, but it is destruction of property, and if you're going to be amused by destruction of property it's a bit weird to decry the loss of some bottles of milk.

Milk is the easiest way to mitigate the damage of tear gas. Given the police have been summarily gassing peaceful protesters all across the country (including children in Seattle, I hear), yes, I am decrying them actively destroying an aid station that was there to help people who had been hurt.

A note, tear gas is banned in warfare by international treaty. It's a chemical weapon. US police are currently spraying it indiscriminately over crowds.

Puja

Not protesting in the face of police who're nervous and trigger happy seems the easiest way to mitigate the risk of tear gas.

I don't know whether you meant to imply this, but you've effectively just said that, "Black people getting attacked by chemical weapons while peacefully protesting is their own fault because they know what police are like and so they shouldn't have upset them." That's the kind of logic 1950s people used on abused wives and rape victims.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:
Milk is the easiest way to mitigate the damage of tear gas. Given the police have been summarily gassing peaceful protesters all across the country (including children in Seattle, I hear), yes, I am decrying them actively destroying an aid station that was there to help people who had been hurt.

A note, tear gas is banned in warfare by international treaty. It's a chemical weapon. US police are currently spraying it indiscriminately over crowds.

Puja

Not protesting in the face of police who're nervous and trigger happy seems the easiest way to mitigate the risk of tear gas.

I don't know whether you meant to imply this, but you've effectively just said that, "Black people getting attacked by chemical weapons while peacefully protesting is their own fault because they know what police are like and so they shouldn't have upset them." That's the kind of logic 1950s people used on abused wives and rape victims.

Puja

The 1950s people? Yeah, sorry, that still happens, too.

Insane.

My first comments on this.

All I can say is that i feel so lucky to be a straight, white, “Christian” man.

And that sickens me.

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:
Milk is the easiest way to mitigate the damage of tear gas. Given the police have been summarily gassing peaceful protesters all across the country (including children in Seattle, I hear), yes, I am decrying them actively destroying an aid station that was there to help people who had been hurt.

A note, tear gas is banned in warfare by international treaty. It's a chemical weapon. US police are currently spraying it indiscriminately over crowds.

Puja

Not protesting in the face of police who're nervous and trigger happy seems the easiest way to mitigate the risk of tear gas.

I don't know whether you meant to imply this, but you've effectively just said that, "Black people getting attacked by chemical weapons while peacefully protesting is their own fault because they know what police are like and so they shouldn't have upset them." That's the kind of logic 1950s people used on abused wives and rape victims.

Puja

No, what I said was not protesting is an easier way to ensure you avoid problems with tear gas than relying on milk once you have been gassed. And it is. I'm not saying what the police did is right, indeed I think I said it was wrong, and people should of course be able to protest peacefully, but there is in addition to a lot of peaceful protesters some problems arising from some of those with an anarchist bent, from a mob mentality building in the protesters, and from some really poor police work in trying to manage the situation. Though I might observe there are still a lot of fine police officers doing some very good work, and they're being badly let down by their incompetent colleagues just as the more violent protesters are letting down the peaceful protesters.

To be clear I'm on the side of those protesting until they start destroying property, at which point I have sympathy for their anger but not their actions, and even then I don't consider them wholly liable because society and those in power still need to be addressing some entirely viable concerns and points of anger. And I don't agree with those community leaders and historians who're saying the torches are being lit entirely by those who have suppressed and beaten down the minority communities, I just don't buy into their being such a lack of free will those mechanically lighting fires are devoid of all responsibility

cashead wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:



Puja

It's hardly wanton destruction of property, but it is destruction of property, and if you're going to be amused by destruction of property it's a bit weird to decry the loss of some bottles of milk.

Nice to see you performatively clutching your pearls and wringing your hands as the chickens come home to roost for the institutions that have stanned for white supremacy. “Won’t somebody please think of the KKK fan club?”

And honestly, trying to draw an equivalence between the bottles of milk being destroyed and the burning of the Daughters of the Confederacy building is one of the most risible things you’ve posted.

What can I say, I have an issue with destruction of property, with people taking the law into their own hands, I don't view those as safe actions for a society and I'd prefer people were not hurt. I struggle too to see how violence solves violence, and whilst I'm not surprised we're stuck in such a cycle perpetuating I don't see how it helps to glorify the supposed achievements of violence by either side

canta_brian wrote:

cashead wrote:

canta_brian wrote: That’s pretty much the same as saying the best way to avoid getting robbed is to not own anything.

Maybe George Floyd or Christian Cooper or even Breonna Taylor should have avoided being black. I wonder if they thought about that?

They tried peaceful protests, and that didn’t go anywhere, and now here we are.

Maybe they should have turned themselves inside out. Much as white supremacists hate to admit it we are all blood and guts once you are more than a millimetre deep.

For me if the peaceful protests haven't worked you keep up the peaceful protests. You register to vote, you make sure you do vote, you lobby your representatives, you can even run for office, you go on actual (peaceful) protests... It's not good enough to say I'm frustrated X hasn't happened by now and that entitles me to do violence unto others.

None of which makes me a white supremacist in my opinion, it seems a little bizarre to me to even try to make that leap.

Digby wrote:

cashead wrote:

Digby wrote:
It's hardly wanton destruction of property, but it is destruction of property, and if you're going to be amused by destruction of property it's a bit weird to decry the loss of some bottles of milk.

Nice to see you performatively clutching your pearls and wringing your hands as the chickens come home to roost for the institutions that have stanned for white supremacy. “Won’t somebody please think of the KKK fan club?”

And honestly, trying to draw an equivalence between the bottles of milk being destroyed and the burning of the Daughters of the Confederacy building is one of the most risible things you’ve posted.

What can I say, I have an issue with destruction of property, with people taking the law into their own hands, I don't view those as safe actions for a society and I'd prefer people were not hurt. I struggle too to see how violence solves violence, and whilst I'm not surprised we're stuck in such a cycle perpetuating I don't see how it helps to glorify the supposed achievements of violence by either side

I still find it odd you chose to protest at someone laughing at a relatively funny dark joke. It was a joke, it was relevant, timely, and had double meanings. It was good.

Stom wrote:

Digby wrote:

cashead wrote: Nice to see you performatively clutching your pearls and wringing your hands as the chickens come home to roost for the institutions that have stanned for white supremacy. “Won’t somebody please think of the KKK fan club?”

And honestly, trying to draw an equivalence between the bottles of milk being destroyed and the burning of the Daughters of the Confederacy building is one of the most risible things you’ve posted.

What can I say, I have an issue with destruction of property, with people taking the law into their own hands, I don't view those as safe actions for a society and I'd prefer people were not hurt. I struggle too to see how violence solves violence, and whilst I'm not surprised we're stuck in such a cycle perpetuating I don't see how it helps to glorify the supposed achievements of violence by either side

I still find it odd you chose to protest at someone laughing at a relatively funny dark joke. It was a joke, it was relevant, timely, and had double meanings. It was good.

I said it's a bit weird to decry to the destruction of property whilst simultaneously laughing at the destruction of property. I'm not sure that's a protest so much as an observation. If I were to protest it would though be along the lines of such hypocrisy makes it too easy for those in power to ignore the actual problem being faced right now and the underlying issues, it gives those in power an easy out to dismiss your claims. But I'm not actually protesting anything, so left it as it's a bit weird.

Digby wrote:

Stom wrote:

Digby wrote:
What can I say, I have an issue with destruction of property, with people taking the law into their own hands, I don't view those as safe actions for a society and I'd prefer people were not hurt. I struggle too to see how violence solves violence, and whilst I'm not surprised we're stuck in such a cycle perpetuating I don't see how it helps to glorify the supposed achievements of violence by either side

I still find it odd you chose to protest at someone laughing at a relatively funny dark joke. It was a joke, it was relevant, timely, and had double meanings. It was good.

I said it's a bit weird to decry to the destruction of property whilst simultaneously laughing at the destruction of property. I'm not sure that's a protest so much as an observation. If I were to protest it would though be along the lines of such hypocrisy makes it too easy for those in power to ignore the actual problem being faced right now and the underlying issues, it gives those in power an easy out to dismiss your claims. But I'm not actually protesting anything, so left it as it's a bit weird.

You don’t think that without the protests this sort of racism and murder gets swept under the carpet?

Digby wrote:

Stom wrote:

Digby wrote:
What can I say, I have an issue with destruction of property, with people taking the law into their own hands, I don't view those as safe actions for a society and I'd prefer people were not hurt. I struggle too to see how violence solves violence, and whilst I'm not surprised we're stuck in such a cycle perpetuating I don't see how it helps to glorify the supposed achievements of violence by either side

I still find it odd you chose to protest at someone laughing at a relatively funny dark joke. It was a joke, it was relevant, timely, and had double meanings. It was good.

I said it's a bit weird to decry to the destruction of property whilst simultaneously laughing at the destruction of property. I'm not sure that's a protest so much as an observation. If I were to protest it would though be along the lines of such hypocrisy makes it too easy for those in power to ignore the actual problem being faced right now and the underlying issues, it gives those in power an easy out to dismiss your claims. But I'm not actually protesting anything, so left it as it's a bit weird.

So you’re saying humor is only good when it’s about something you agree with?

Digby wrote:

cashead wrote:

Digby wrote:
It's hardly wanton destruction of property, but it is destruction of property, and if you're going to be amused by destruction of property it's a bit weird to decry the loss of some bottles of milk.

Nice to see you performatively clutching your pearls and wringing your hands as the chickens come home to roost for the institutions that have stanned for white supremacy. “Won’t somebody please think of the KKK fan club?”

And honestly, trying to draw an equivalence between the bottles of milk being destroyed and the burning of the Daughters of the Confederacy building is one of the most risible things you’ve posted.

What can I say, I have an issue with destruction of property, with people taking the law into their own hands, I don't view those as safe actions for a society and I'd prefer people were not hurt. I struggle too to see how violence solves violence, and whilst I'm not surprised we're stuck in such a cycle perpetuating I don't see how it helps to glorify the supposed achievements of violence by either side

"Safe actions for a society" "Prefer that people were not hurt"

In 2019, there were 996 people fatally shot by police. In 2019, there were 1,004. So far in 2020, the number is 228 (which is above the total that there was this time last year). 12% of the population is black, but 40% of the death from police are black. A black man in the USA has a 1 in 1000 chance of dying from a police officer - that makes it the 7th highest cause of death, beating out diabetes, influenza, and cerebrovascular diseases. George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Dominique Clayton, Eric Reason, Atatiana Jefferson, Botham Jean, Philando Castile, Bettie Jones, Walther Scott.

People were already not in a safe society. People were already being hurt. There have already been peaceful protests, including those mocked and coerced out of existence by the President. These aren't people who have decided they fancy burning down a building - these are people who are being regularly murdered by those who are supposed to protect them and who have been systematically dismissed and unheard.

I would also like to note that, while I don't like riots, not-violence has resulted in the problem being utterly ignored, whereas violence has a history of bringing about universal suffrage, recognition of basic gay rights and civil rights, regime change, law change - I don't like it, but it does have a history of getting shit done with a much higher success rate than asking politely.

"Violence doesn't solve violence" is something someone who is not getting violence perpetrated on them can comfortably say. There was already violence on one side of the equation - it was regular, systemic, and consistent. It wasn't being solved by non-violence and, while I don't like it, I'm not surprised that people have decided to field test whether they get better results with a riot than with a kneel.

Puja

Government desperately trying to spin a narrative that blames radical left wing groups for the violence. Not a peep about the root cause of the anger, just deploy all available resources to shifting responsibility. It's their playbook for every situation. Covid, extrajudicial killings of cloloured people by police, and on and on and on. No proactive constructive effort whatsoever. It is absolutely pathetic. Nearly four years of blaming minorities for every perceived ill affecting society and turning a blind eye to the manifest uptick in vocal white supremacist ideology and they can't fucking handle the fire they started. What next? I'm thinking the rolling back of environmental safety regulations over the last few years should place us ripe for a nice nuclear plant melt down. It is impossible to overstate how catastrophically useless this administration is.

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

cashead wrote: Nice to see you performatively clutching your pearls and wringing your hands as the chickens come home to roost for the institutions that have stanned for white supremacy. “Won’t somebody please think of the KKK fan club?”

And honestly, trying to draw an equivalence between the bottles of milk being destroyed and the burning of the Daughters of the Confederacy building is one of the most risible things you’ve posted.

What can I say, I have an issue with destruction of property, with people taking the law into their own hands, I don't view those as safe actions for a society and I'd prefer people were not hurt. I struggle too to see how violence solves violence, and whilst I'm not surprised we're stuck in such a cycle perpetuating I don't see how it helps to glorify the supposed achievements of violence by either side

"Safe actions for a society" "Prefer that people were not hurt"

In 2019, there were 996 people fatally shot by police. In 2019, there were 1,004. So far in 2020, the number is 228 (which is above the total that there was this time last year). 12% of the population is black, but 40% of the death from police are black. A black man in the USA has a 1 in 1000 chance of dying from a police officer - that makes it the 7th highest cause of death, beating out diabetes, influenza, and cerebrovascular diseases. George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Dominique Clayton, Eric Reason, Atatiana Jefferson, Botham Jean, Philando Castile, Bettie Jones, Walther Scott.

People were already not in a safe society. People were already being hurt. There have already been peaceful protests, including those mocked and coerced out of existence by the President. These aren't people who have decided they fancy burning down a building - these are people who are being regularly murdered by those who are supposed to protect them and who have been systematically dismissed and unheard.

I would also like to note that, while I don't like riots, not-violence has resulted in the problem being utterly ignored, whereas violence has a history of bringing about universal suffrage, recognition of basic gay rights and civil rights, regime change, law change - I don't like it, but it does have a history of getting shit done with a much higher success rate than asking politely.

"Violence doesn't solve violence" is something someone who is not getting violence perpetrated on them can comfortably say. There was already violence on one side of the equation - it was regular, systemic, and consistent. It wasn't being solved by non-violence and, while I don't like it, I'm not surprised that people have decided to field test whether they get better results with a riot than with a kneel.

Puja

This is very well put.

How far are you supposed to be able to push people? How long are you meant to go on thinking that you must obey the law at all costs, yet might still be murdered like an animal in the street on any given day for no particular reason? Somehow those people aren't held to a similar standard, yet you must keep obeying because it makes their lives easier? That's got to wear off eventually.

I'm not just talking and black and white here but you can't exactly ignore it. There's good reason people struggle to distinguish a lot of class and race issues. It's very unclear at this point who is committing more violent acts and for what reason. That's not to say it's all alright, but surely you can see this is absolute desperation?

This guy was (fortunately) caught on video as he slowly executed a stranger in broad daylight, but often that doesn't seem to be enough. And these people were not sure it would be enough even this time. I think that's pretty valid. Would he have been arrested without all this?

Of course more people voting would be great, but that system is pretty fucked too. People are trying but people are also hitting a lot of roadblocks. How long are you meant to keep hoping that this time your vote is going to matter? 'You and your children might have to eat shit from us for the rest of your lives but please keep voting and we promise it might work itself out.'

Reform needs to be done at the Federal level because this problem is endemic nation wide. This will need like minded individuals in both the house and the senate. At the moment the house can draft reform, but the senate is controlled by people that appear to base policy on scripture and they just kill anything they don't like. 33 of the 100 senate seats are up for election this November, as are 23 congressional seats currently occupied by republicans. There are politicians with the will and ability to enact this, but the corpses currently holding power need to be shifted first. These protests are a vital cog in the machinery that will motivate the political will and ability of the right people.

morepork wrote:Reform needs to be done at the Federal level because this problem is endemic nation wide. This will need like minded individuals in both the house and the senate. At the moment the house can draft reform, but the senate is controlled by people that appear to base policy on scripture and they just kill anything they don't like. 33 of the 100 senate seats are up for election this November, as are 23 congressional seats currently occupied by republicans. There are politicians with the will and ability to enact this, but the corpses currently holding power need to be shifted first. These protests are a vital cog in the machinery that will motivate the political will and ability of the right people.

Well let’s hope so.

It doesn't look hopeful but they need to keep voting and protesting.

6pm curfew here. More agitation on the streets today. Staying in the crib tonight.