Page 21 of 161
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:13 am
by Zhivago
Yes, she is an autocratic fanatic, really. I loathe her.
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:17 pm
by Banquo
Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Banquo wrote:Digby wrote:
I don't honestly see why they're asking for such licence in the first place, well I do but it doesn't scream class, democracy, or even basic decency. And this isn't the first time they've sought something of a sovereign approach now we're free of the shackles of Europe.Simply there's no sane argument imo that we should leave the clutches of the EU to adopt sovereign powers in its place, whilst I don't support Brexit I can see why people would want to leave to EU to run our own show, it's just that doesn't include behaviour that Erdogan would approve of for me
at face value, its about removing bureaucracy and not wasting time in parliament that could be better spent on other substantive stuff. I assume you've seen something I haven't by your reaction to what I heard was the proposal.
Not even slightly. Well except to the degree that democracy is bureaucratic and dictatorship is marvellously efficient.
Looks like a white paper on this tomorrow, if I'm reading the 'letter' properly. That'll make interesting reading- letter implies most EU legislation will become UK law, though caveated!
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:23 pm
by Digby
Banquo wrote:Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Banquo wrote:
at face value, its about removing bureaucracy and not wasting time in parliament that could be better spent on other substantive stuff. I assume you've seen something I haven't by your reaction to what I heard was the proposal.
Not even slightly. Well except to the degree that democracy is bureaucratic and dictatorship is marvellously efficient.
Looks like a white paper on this tomorrow, if I'm reading the 'letter' properly. That'll make interesting reading- letter implies most EU legislation will become UK law, though caveated!
In the shorter term they don't possibly have a choice as there just isn't remotely the time to do anything else
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:33 pm
by Banquo
Digby wrote:Banquo wrote:Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
Not even slightly. Well except to the degree that democracy is bureaucratic and dictatorship is marvellously efficient.
Looks like a white paper on this tomorrow, if I'm reading the 'letter' properly. That'll make interesting reading- letter implies most EU legislation will become UK law, though caveated!
In the shorter term they don't possibly have a choice as there just isn't remotely the time to do anything else
10's of thousands of bits of legisalation I hear, cost a bloody fortune I suspect; hence Eugene's keenness on scrutiny
that's the dead stupid thing imo (amongst all the other stupidity), we will spend years and 100's of millions if not billions to work through a process that at best will leave us at best slightly worse off in terms of trade deals (and could be a whole lot worse off, and have lost a lot of cash in the meantime), probably the same legislation that people have spuriously objected to, and not be any further forward as a country in terms of 'integration' (because we sure as shyte will have immigration same as now). Gravy train for consultants and lawyers, root causes of discontent not remotely addressed and the discontented likely worse off. Plus no more UK. Happy days.
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:48 pm
by Digby
Banquo wrote:Digby wrote:Banquo wrote:
Looks like a white paper on this tomorrow, if I'm reading the 'letter' properly. That'll make interesting reading- letter implies most EU legislation will become UK law, though caveated!
In the shorter term they don't possibly have a choice as there just isn't remotely the time to do anything else
10's of thousands of bits of legisalation I hear, cost a bloody fortune I suspect; hence Eugene's keenness on scrutiny
that's the dead stupid thing imo (amongst all the other stupidity), we will spend years and 100's of millions if not billions to work through a process that at best will leave us at best slightly worse off in terms of trade deals (and could be a whole lot worse off, and have lost a lot of cash in the meantime), probably the same legislation that people have spuriously objected to, and not be any further forward as a country in terms of 'integration' (because we sure as shyte will have immigration same as now). Gravy train for consultants and lawyers, root causes of discontent not remotely addressed and the discontented likely worse off. Plus no more UK. Happy days.
I suspect Eugene's point the other day was more the executive would often want to simply be able to enact their plans without the mess of having to get votes/support, and that one should be wary in the extreme of giving up a little democracy even if it looks harmless in the moment. We will of course have some recourse to empower the PM to act without recourse to parliament in the event of emergency, say for instance France invades tomorrow then May will be able to respond rather quickly and simply update parliament at some later point as to her actions (assuming it's still standing). But in the case of leaving the EU much of the case for that was the supposed democratic deficit of being in the EU rather than making our own way, and it's beyond daft to rescue a democratic deficit by establishing sovereign powers when this is something we want politically and isn't close to an emergency
This will though be a gravy train for the consultants and lawyers involved, it's going to take decades most likely, it will cost into the billions, and all that to venture into the unknown, hurrah. It also means the civil service and government are going to be swamped with work and unable to address lord only knows how many other issues
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:27 pm
by Banquo
Digby wrote:Banquo wrote:Digby wrote:
In the shorter term they don't possibly have a choice as there just isn't remotely the time to do anything else
10's of thousands of bits of legisalation I hear, cost a bloody fortune I suspect; hence Eugene's keenness on scrutiny
that's the dead stupid thing imo (amongst all the other stupidity), we will spend years and 100's of millions if not billions to work through a process that at best will leave us at best slightly worse off in terms of trade deals (and could be a whole lot worse off, and have lost a lot of cash in the meantime), probably the same legislation that people have spuriously objected to, and not be any further forward as a country in terms of 'integration' (because we sure as shyte will have immigration same as now). Gravy train for consultants and lawyers, root causes of discontent not remotely addressed and the discontented likely worse off. Plus no more UK. Happy days.
I suspect Eugene's point the other day was more the executive would often want to simply be able to enact their plans without the mess of having to get votes/support, and that one should be wary in the extreme of giving up a little democracy even if it looks harmless in the moment. We will of course have some recourse to empower the PM to act without recourse to parliament in the event of emergency, say for instance France invades tomorrow then May will be able to respond rather quickly and simply update parliament at some later point as to her actions (assuming it's still standing). But in the case of leaving the EU much of the case for that was the supposed democratic deficit of being in the EU rather than making our own way, and it's beyond daft to rescue a democratic deficit by establishing sovereign powers when this is something we want politically and isn't close to an emergency
This will though be a gravy train for the consultants and lawyers involved, it's going to take decades most likely, it will cost into the billions, and all that to venture into the unknown, hurrah. It also means the civil service and government are going to be swamped with work and unable to address lord only knows how many other issues
It was a lawyerly, fees based joke; but thanks for the discourse
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:20 pm
by canta_brian
Is this why Theresa doesn't want an independent Scotland?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-n ... d-39406131
Lots of lovely tax.
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:51 pm
by Len
The EU should have built a wall around Ebbw Vale. Creatures.
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:22 pm
by Digby
Were it about money Brexit wouldn't mean Brexit, it has to be ideological to no small degree
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:09 am
by Eugene Wrayburn
My view on powers is that you should consider what the worst possible government would be able to do with them without any restraint. Giving the executive the power to enact laws across the gamut of what was once European law is basically dictatorship. There's a very easy alternative. You pass a law which says that the law after Brexit is the same as the law before Brexit unless and until it is changed through ordinary legislative process. Done. That wasn't hard was it?
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:39 am
by Banquo
Eugene Wrayburn wrote:My view on powers is that you should consider what the worst possible government would be able to do with them without any restraint. Giving the executive the power to enact laws across the gamut of what was once European law is basically dictatorship. There's a very easy alternative. You pass a law which says that the law after Brexit is the same as the law before Brexit unless and until it is changed through ordinary legislative process. Done. That wasn't hard was it?
Be interesting to see what the white paper actually says.
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:40 am
by BBD
Banquo wrote:Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Banquo wrote:
at face value, its about removing bureaucracy and not wasting time in parliament that could be better spent on other substantive stuff. I assume you've seen something I haven't by your reaction to what I heard was the proposal.
Not even slightly. Well except to the degree that democracy is bureaucratic and dictatorship is marvellously efficient.
Looks like a white paper on this tomorrow, if I'm reading the 'letter' properly. That'll make interesting reading- letter implies most EU legislation will become UK law, though caveated!
Its the safest and only practical way to go isn't it?
Transfer most to minimise disruption and then decide afterwards which ones you don't really want or want to change. My missus has a similar approach to spring cleaning her wardrobe
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:42 am
by Banquo
BBD wrote:Banquo wrote:Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
Not even slightly. Well except to the degree that democracy is bureaucratic and dictatorship is marvellously efficient.
Looks like a white paper on this tomorrow, if I'm reading the 'letter' properly. That'll make interesting reading- letter implies most EU legislation will become UK law, though caveated!
Its the safest and only practical way to go isn't it?
Transfer most to minimise disruption and then decide afterwards which ones you don't really want or want to change. My missus has a similar approach to spring cleaning her wardrobe
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:15 am
by Stones of granite
The reality will bite in around 5 years time when we find that our trade with Europe is becoming increasingly blocked because of claimed non-compliance with European regulations, despite the GRB making them part of UK law. The French in particular will point to every amendment in EU law, however minor, and point out that UK law has not kept up.
This means that our Parliamentarians with all their repatriated sovereignty will increasingly spend their time trying to follow what is happening in Europe, debating the changes and updating UK law. Not forgetting, of course, that these changes were effectively decided in Europe, and no longer with any UK involvement or influence.
But at least we'll have regained our sovereignty....
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:49 am
by Adder
Which will take the biggest Hit?
http://www.worldstopexports.com/united- ... p-exports/
United Kingdom’s Top 10 Exports
FEBRUARY 18, 2017 BY DANIEL WORKMAN
United Kingdom’s Top Exports
United Kingdom shipped US$408.9 billion worth of goods around the globe in 2016, up by 13.7% since 2009 when the Great Recession kicked in but down by -12.3% from 2015 to 2016.
United Kingdom’s top 10 exports accounted for more than two-thirds (69.8%) of the overall value of its global shipments.
Based on statistics from the International Monetary Fund’s World Economic Outlook Database, United Kingdom’s total Gross Domestic Product amounted to $2.778 trillion as of November 2016. Therefore, exports account for about 14.7% of total UK economic output.
From a continental perspective, 54.3% of UK exports by value are delivered to other European trade partners while 21.2% are sold to Asian importers. United Kingdom ships another 16.7% to North America and just 2.8% to Africa.
Given United Kingdom’s population of 64.4 million people, its total $408.9 billion in 2016 exports translates to roughly 6,300 for every resident in that country.
United Kingdom’s unemployment rate was 4.8% as of December 2016 down from 5.1% one year earlier, according to Trading Economics.
United Kingdom’s Top 10 Exports
Top 10
The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2016. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from United Kingdom.
Machinery including computers: US$60.3 billion (14.7% of total exports)
Vehicles : $51.7 billion (12.6%)
Pharmaceuticals: $32.6 billion (8%)
Gems, precious metals: $27.5 billion (6.7%)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $27.1 billion (6.6%)
Mineral fuels including oil: $26.2 billion (6.4%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $20.7 billion (5.1%)
Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $17.2 billion (4.2%)
Plastics, plastic articles: $11.2 billion (2.7%)
Organic chemicals: $10.8 billion (2.6%)
Vehicles were the fastest-growing among the top 10 export categories, up 80.8% for the 7-year period starting in 2009.
In second place for improving export sales was the aerospace category which gained 72.7% led by significant international sales for airplanes and turbojets.
UK exported gems and precious metals posted the third-fastest gain in value up 64.4% thanks to booming gold and platinum shipments.
Mineral fuels including oil led the decliners down by -34.5%.
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:03 am
by Stones of granite
Adder wrote:Which will take the biggest Hit?
http://www.worldstopexports.com/united- ... p-exports/
United Kingdom’s Top 10 Exports
FEBRUARY 18, 2017 BY DANIEL WORKMAN
United Kingdom’s Top Exports
United Kingdom shipped US$408.9 billion worth of goods around the globe in 2016, up by 13.7% since 2009 when the Great Recession kicked in but down by -12.3% from 2015 to 2016.
United Kingdom’s top 10 exports accounted for more than two-thirds (69.8%) of the overall value of its global shipments.
Based on statistics from the International Monetary Fund’s World Economic Outlook Database, United Kingdom’s total Gross Domestic Product amounted to $2.778 trillion as of November 2016. Therefore, exports account for about 14.7% of total UK economic output.
From a continental perspective, 54.3% of UK exports by value are delivered to other European trade partners while 21.2% are sold to Asian importers. United Kingdom ships another 16.7% to North America and just 2.8% to Africa.
Given United Kingdom’s population of 64.4 million people, its total $408.9 billion in 2016 exports translates to roughly 6,300 for every resident in that country.
United Kingdom’s unemployment rate was 4.8% as of December 2016 down from 5.1% one year earlier, according to Trading Economics.
United Kingdom’s Top 10 Exports
Top 10
The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2016. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from United Kingdom.
Machinery including computers: US$60.3 billion (14.7% of total exports)
Vehicles : $51.7 billion (12.6%)
Pharmaceuticals: $32.6 billion (8%)
Gems, precious metals: $27.5 billion (6.7%)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $27.1 billion (6.6%)
Mineral fuels including oil: $26.2 billion (6.4%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $20.7 billion (5.1%)
Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $17.2 billion (4.2%)
Plastics, plastic articles: $11.2 billion (2.7%)
Organic chemicals: $10.8 billion (2.6%)
Vehicles were the fastest-growing among the top 10 export categories, up 80.8% for the 7-year period starting in 2009.
In second place for improving export sales was the aerospace category which gained 72.7% led by significant international sales for airplanes and turbojets.
UK exported gems and precious metals posted the third-fastest gain in value up 64.4% thanks to booming gold and platinum shipments.
Mineral fuels including oil led the decliners down by -34.5%.
Machinery - Regulated principally by the Machinery Directive
Vehicles - Regulated by a whole host of Directives
Pharmaceuticals - not my area of knowledge, but I expect there is a shit-tonne of safety stuff
Gems - possibly not badly affected other than by financial regulations
Electrical machinery, equipment - Regulated by Electrical and Safety Directives
Mineral fuels including oil - should be OK
Aircraft, spacecraft: - Various Directives, including Electrical, Machinery and Safety
Optical, technical, medical apparatus - Medical safety is highly regulated
Plastics, plastic articles - May be OK
Organic chemicals - Dunno, but probably Safety Directive
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:10 am
by Sandydragon
Data protection, which impacts a range of industries to some degree. UK Legislation currently based on EU regulation, but GDPR is incoming and will become UK law in 2018; will it be repealed? Pressure from corporations to do so, but secure pers data increases consumer trust in online transactions and if they want to deal in the EU, they will need to comply anyway.
Look out for plenty of smoke and mirrors on that one.
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:16 am
by Stones of granite
Sandydragon wrote:Data protection, which impacts a range of industries to some degree. UK Legislation currently based on EU regulation, but GDPR is incoming and will become UK law in 2018; will it be repealed? Pressure from corporations to do so, but secure pers data increases consumer trust in online transactions and if they want to deal in the EU, they will need to comply anyway.
Look out for plenty of smoke and mirrors on that one.
Interesting one. I originally typed:
"
It'll be quietly sidelined, quoting pressure on the legislative timetable from some aspect of Brexit such as the GRB. Then silently dumped."
But on reflection, I'm not so sure. It surely has to be added to the list of parallel regulations that will have to be maintained.
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:35 pm
by Sandydragon
Stones of granite wrote:Sandydragon wrote:Data protection, which impacts a range of industries to some degree. UK Legislation currently based on EU regulation, but GDPR is incoming and will become UK law in 2018; will it be repealed? Pressure from corporations to do so, but secure pers data increases consumer trust in online transactions and if they want to deal in the EU, they will need to comply anyway.
Look out for plenty of smoke and mirrors on that one.
Interesting one. I originally typed:
"
It'll be quietly sidelined, quoting pressure on the legislative timetable from some aspect of Brexit such as the GRB. Then silently dumped."
But on reflection, I'm not so sure. It surely has to be added to the list of parallel regulations that will have to be maintained.
Aye. When you consider that a fair amount of UK data is hosted in Ireland (that might change) and there will still be EU citizens living in the UK, whilst we will still want to trade with the EU and potentially hold some information, there is a case for legislation that brings the UK to a similar standard.
SOme business leaders are moaning about the cost of implementation. Frankly, compared to the big picture of online engagement potentially dropping as people become nervous about the security of their data, its small feed.
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:22 pm
by Donny osmond
No idea how accurate this is, but interesting nevertheless...
Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:25 pm
by canta_brian
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:14 am
by Which Tyler
Who ever could have seen that coming? apart from... just about everyone, that is.
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:16 am
by Sandydragon
Which Tyler wrote:
Who ever could have seen that coming? apart from... just about everyone, that is.
So much for they need us and thus the talks will be nice and civil.
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:45 am
by Mellsblue
Donny osmond wrote:No idea how accurate this is, but interesting nevertheless...
Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk
You can easily pick a few holes in that, I'd say. I'd start with the risk to exports in NI being medium. Due to the sheer volume of goods that cross the border with the ROI this can't be correct. The amount of agriculture in Yorks and the N West must make them high with the risk of losing EU funding and EU workers. Of course, they may be basing this on noises that all efforts will be made to keep the soft border in Ireland, that continued, if altered, agriculture subsidies are high up the agenda, that seasonal worker visas will be reinstated and that the Yorks and the N West have relatively high unemployment rates and have the potential capacity to replace lost migrant workers. However, even taking that in to account, and I'd have a few other issues on top, it seems overly optimistic at this stage.
Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:53 am
by Mellsblue
Sandydragon wrote:Which Tyler wrote:
Who ever could have seen that coming? apart from... just about everyone, that is.
So much for they need us and thus the talks will be nice and civil.
EU in disregarding the results of a referendum shock.
This is typical media hype. All of the noises from the major players have been positive and conciliatory since Wednesday. And recent weeks have seen a slew of reports from influential institutions demanding that constructive, non-adversarial talks are the best route to go down to reach an agreement that best suits both sides. Though, you wouldn't expect a paper with the Mirror's modus operandi to lead with such views.
Of course, should divorce terms not be amicably reached the Mirror may have called it correctly. There's a sentence I never expected to write.