RugbyRebels

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:56 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:54 am The Porter mystery continues.

He's a stout-hearted fellow. A good bloke to have in the squad.

('....mumbles something about IPA and not being caught on the hop.....)

Launchbury not mentioned as" injured but remaining in camp" as he was previously I believe, and also not in the actual squad. Does that means he's out out?

Tesh wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:12 pm Launchbury not mentioned as" injured but remaining in camp" as he was previously I believe, and also not in the actual squad. Does that means he's out out?

Good catch. TBH, I'd be dubious about the value of Launchbury at present - he's been playing at a significantly lower level all season, he's on the wane physically, and, while I'd love 2015!Launchbury, I doubt 2023!Launchbury is anywhere near the same player. I'd rather see us put our limited time into seeing if Martin is ready (especially since Itoje/Martin as a combo sounds delightful).

Puja

Makes a lot of sense, but like you I'd just love '15 Launch back in, and sort of hoping he can get back there, however unlikely. Think you're right on Martin, would love to see him in.

WC training squad announced. Headlines here



Forwards (23)
Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 6 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 100 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 45 caps)
Theo Dan (Saracens, uncapped)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 14 caps)
Ben Earl (Saracens, 15 caps)
Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 48 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 77 caps)
Jonny Hill (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 67 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 97 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 19 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 79 caps)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Tom Pearson (London Irish, uncapped)
Val Rapava-Ruskin (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
David Ribbans (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 61 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 25 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 29 caps)
Jack Willis (Toulouse, 10 caps)
Tom Willis (Bordeaux Bègles, uncapped)

Backs (18)
Henry Arundell (London Irish, 7 caps)
Danny Care (Harlequins, 87 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 57 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 106 caps)
George Ford (Sale Sharks, 81 caps)
Max Malins (Saracens, 18 caps)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 15 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 72 caps)
Cadan Murley (Harlequins, uncapped)
Guy Porter (Leicester Tigers, 4 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 56 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 21 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 22 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 51 caps)
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
Anthony Watson (Leicester Tigers, 55 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 122 caps)

Rehabilitation (5)
Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps)
Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 79 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 68 caps)
Jack Walker (Harlequins, 3 caps)

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... ning-squad

Good to see Willis x 2 in there
Mitchell and Mercer are relatively big omissions

Looks like more of the same though - which is always worrying

Dombrandt ahead of Mercer?

Guy Porter

Scrum half selection makes me think I've travelled back in time, Dombrandt over Mercer is ludicrous, hopefully Porter is keeping Lawrence's shirt warm, dubious on May. Don't get Earl, in the squad for the whole 6N, didn't get a start but in the training squad.

Good to see VRR, Pearson, T Willis and Murley.

francoisfou wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:28 am Dombrandt ahead of Mercer?

It’s a big call picking Mercer over Dombrandt now, with the latter having 14 caps in the bank, but I’ve seen (biased I know) next to nothing to suggest he’s an international class No8. Can totally understand the rationale behind keeping Dombrandt mind. I wouldn’t. But I get it.

Tom Moore wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:37 am Scrum half selection makes me think I've travelled back in time, Dombrandt over Mercer is ludicrous, hopefully Porter is keeping Lawrence's shirt warm, dubious on May. Don't get Earl, in the squad for the whole 6N, didn't get a start but in the training squad.

Good to see VRR, Pearson, T Willis and Murley.

I do get Earl. He’s had a bloody good season. I don’t get Underhill after the season he’s had and his obvious issues with concussion.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:38 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:28 am Dombrandt ahead of Mercer?

It’s a big call picking Mercer over Dombrandt now, with the latter having 14 caps in the bank, but I’ve seen (biased I know) next to nothing to suggest he’s an international class No8. Can totally understand the rationale behind keeping Dombrandt mind. I wouldn’t. But I get it.

..except Dombrandt hasn’t exactly set the world on fire for England, or maybe I’ve missed something? Mercer at least deserves a chance in the pre-World cup games.

francoisfou wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:42 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:38 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:28 am Dombrandt ahead of Mercer?

It’s a big call picking Mercer over Dombrandt now, with the latter having 14 caps in the bank, but I’ve seen (biased I know) next to nothing to suggest he’s an international class No8. Can totally understand the rationale behind keeping Dombrandt mind. I wouldn’t. But I get it.

..except Dombrandt hasn’t exactly set the world on fire for England, or maybe I’ve missed something? Mercer at least deserves a chance in the pre-World cup games.

Sorry. That’s what I’m saying. It would be a big call to pick Mercer, but in 14 caps Dombrandt has looked a good premiership player and little else.

Renniks wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:23 am Good to see Willis x 2 in there
Mitchell and Mercer are relatively big omissions

Looks like more of the same though - which is always worrying

What looks like more of the same? What were you expecting?

The scrumhalf situation is weird. I thought Mitchell had shown some good touches and there would only be one ‘senior’ scrumhalf in there. Youngs and Care have both looked past it, but we took too long to invest a decent amount of time in anybody else.

Mercer in for Dombrandt possibly, but he’s completely untested.

Freeman… well who knows what the deal is there. At least Murley has a chance to put some pressure on Malins.

francoisfou wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:42 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:38 am

francoisfou wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:28 am Dombrandt ahead of Mercer?

It’s a big call picking Mercer over Dombrandt now, with the latter having 14 caps in the bank, but I’ve seen (biased I know) next to nothing to suggest he’s an international class No8. Can totally understand the rationale behind keeping Dombrandt mind. I wouldn’t. But I get it.

..except Dombrandt hasn’t exactly set the world on fire for England, or maybe I’ve missed something? Mercer at least deserves a chance in the pre-World cup games.

I think disposing of those who have not cut it or are past it is normally a vital constituent part of RWC preparation. Unfortunately, with SB's late appointment there cannot be the normal clarity because there is no coaching continuity to reinforce A v B decisions. There are bound to be unfortunate compromises.

1. Genge, Marler, VRR, Rodd (Mako)
2. George, Blamire, Dan (Walker)
3. Sinckler, Stuart, Cole
4. Itoje, Martin
5. Hill, Ribbans (Chessum)
6. Lawes, Underhill, Ludlam
7. Curry, J. Willis, Pearson
8. Dombrandt, T.Willis, Earl (Billy)

9. Youngs, JVP, Care
10. Farrell, Ford, Smith
11. May, Murley, Cokanasiga
12. Tuilagi, Porter (Lawrence)
13. Slade, Marchant, Daly
14. Watson, Malins,
15. Steward, Arundell

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:40 am

Tom Moore wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:37 am Scrum half selection makes me think I've travelled back in time, Dombrandt over Mercer is ludicrous, hopefully Porter is keeping Lawrence's shirt warm, dubious on May. Don't get Earl, in the squad for the whole 6N, didn't get a start but in the training squad.

Good to see VRR, Pearson, T Willis and Murley.

I do get Earl. He’s had a bloody good season. I don’t get Underhill after the season he’s had and his obvious issues with concussion.

He has had an excellent season, but he was having one throughout the 6N and never got a start. I don't think he's got noticeably better since it finished. That's what I don't get.

Forwards (23 (+4 injured))

Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 48 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 79 caps)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Val Rapava-Ruskin (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
- Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 79 caps) INJURED

Jamie George (Saracens, 77 caps)
Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 6 caps)
Theo Dan (Saracens, uncapped)
- Jack Walker (Harlequins, 3 caps) INJURED

Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 61 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 25 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 100 caps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens, 67 caps)
Jonny Hill (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
David Ribbans (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
- Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps) INJURED

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 97 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 45 caps)
Jack Willis (Toulouse, 10 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 29 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 19 caps)
Tom Pearson (London Irish, uncapped)
Ben Earl (Saracens, 15 caps)

Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 14 caps)
Tom Willis (Bordeaux Bègles, uncapped)
- Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 68 caps) INJURED

Backs (18 (+1 injured))

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 122 caps)
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 12 caps)
Danny Care (Harlequins, 87 caps)

Owen Farrell (Saracens, 106 caps)
George Ford (Sale Sharks, 81 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 21 caps)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 15 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 51 caps)
Guy Porter (Leicester Tigers, 4 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 56 caps)
- Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 11 caps) INJURED

Anthony Watson (Leicester Tigers, 55 caps)
Henry Arundell (London Irish, 7 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 57 caps)
Max Malins (Saracens, 18 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 72 caps)
Cadan Murley (Harlequins, uncapped)

Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 22 caps)

Just the 5 minutes late mod.

Leaving out Mercer is stupid

Interesting squad. Like you all, I'm disappointed to see no Mercer or Mitchell, although it's telling that they've had 2 weeks in camp and have clearly not impressed enough to make the cut. VRR, on the other hand, appears to have taken his opportunity in a very competitive position, as have Pearson and Murley. Dan and Blamire - probably promising that they've made the cut, but it's not a ringing endorsement in the same way given that they're in who the fuck else is there territory. Martin retaining his place is promising, as there's only 5ish locks named in total (depending on if you think Chessum will be fit or if Lawes will play there) - he's beaten out Ewels and Isiekwe which will make a few here happy.

It feels like a tighter more focussed squad than usual - very few passengers or makeweights. We've picked the final squad for tightheads, scrumhalves, probably fly-halves (albeit we may just take 2), and possibly hookers if we're looking at the fit ones. If you're counting the injured players, then it's 46 that needs to be whittled down to 33, but the majority of the players to be cut are at loosehead, back row, or wing - 8-10 of the 13 cuts will happen in one of those three positions.

That's good for team cohesion and allowing the coaches to concentrate on the players who will be going rather than spreading themselves thin. Bad news if there's a run of injuries.

Overall - it could be worse IMO.

Puja

Surprised neither Quirke nor Warr get a look in.

Freeman being cut is a shame.

VRR staying in there is good to see. Him and Genge in tandem could be great for us.

TheNomad wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:11 am Leaving out Mercer is stupid

Stupid is a bit strong. I’d have picked him, but he had his chance to impress and seemingly didn’t take it.

His form in the Top 14 doesn’t necessarily equate to him being a good test player. I’d expect him to step up but there’s no guarantee that he would.

I’ve said this before, but at risk of sounding like a bit of a broken record, last season’s form is a bit irrelevant considering that the RWC kicks off a solid 3mths after the league seasons finished.

Form during the season gets you into the camp. Form in camp gets you in to the squad.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:24 pm

TheNomad wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:11 am Leaving out Mercer is stupid

Stupid is a bit strong. I’d have picked him, but he had his chance to impress and seemingly didn’t take it.

His form in the Top 14 doesn’t necessarily equate to him being a good test player. I’d expect him to step up but there’s no guarantee that he would.

That's the crux for me. If Borthwick had ignored him entirely and never looked at him, I'd be sitting here grumbling. However, he's been in camp over 3 weeks now and clearly has not made a compelling case for his inclusion ahead of 10 other back row players. I trust Borthwick as a selector, given his previous successes, so I'm willing to defer to what he's seen in camp.

Puja