RugbyRebels

We got turned over a fair bit as well. And the bokke were all over our breakdown. It’s very hard to play a flowing game when you have slow or no ball.

It doesn't matter how well you play when the opposition can simply decide when they want a penalty.

Gutting at the end, but we did much much better than I expected.

Thank god there weren't many scrums (despite the rain!), it could have been so much worse. I don't think I've ever seen our scrum so dominated - they could convert their scrum into a penalty at will.

The bokke do have a very strong scrum especially with their replacements. But we need to find a way to keep it legal, even if we are on the back foot.

That said, games like this are so important in demonstrating that the scrum is an important part of the game and more than just a restart mechanism.

Anyone think Carre plays like an international prop?


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No.

He might get there but right now he’s not at the races.

It's frustrating because I felt we matched or beat them in most other areas of the game. We didn't look great in attack, but neither did they. If anything we edged the breakdown. For most of the game I felt our defence was comfortable.

But as I said, nothing else matters if you can't win a single scrum. How are backs supposed to attack with any confidence, when they know that a knock-on anywhere on the field will cost a minimum of 40m and usually 3 points?

Graigwen wrote:Anyone think Carre plays like an international prop?


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He’s not at the moment but he’s only 22. Good international props tend to come into their own in their late twenties and even early thirties. Hopefully he will develop but seemed mostly out of his depth yesterday and gave away stupid penalties with a sin bin to boot.

The front five is Pivac’s biggest problem going forward.

normanski wrote:

Graigwen wrote:Anyone think Carre plays like an international prop?


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He’s not at the moment but he’s only 22. Good international props tend to come into their own in their late twenties and even early thirties. Hopefully he will develop but seemed mostly out of his depth yesterday and gave away stupid penalties with a sin bin to boot.

The front five is Pivac’s biggest problem going forward.

We can’t win games without at least parity there.

Owens is proven but ageing. I like Dee for the most part, Elias was better yesterday but isn’t the finished article.

Francis is a steady TH and is usually pretty sound. But it’s very hard to anchor the scrum if the LH is getting tuned. Carre isn’t operating at the right level yet. Wyn Jones is a good LH and Rhodes Jones is a capable player who would have more caps now if not for his forced attempted conversion to the tight.

We have some promising props and some who are proven at international level. I’m wondering if the problem is as much about the collective effort as with individuals. How much time is spent scrummaging in training? Who is our specialist scrum coach? I assume Gethin is leading on this but I wonder if there is a case for a specialist scrum doctor to have a go?

Against the ABs we fell foul of some poor decisions but yesterday we got properly stuffed.

Sandy, you’re right we really need to get some more specialism into our scrum coaching. Australia today had South African du Plessis and before that an Argentinian. While they’re not the finished article they can give a good account of themselves and are good in the loose.

I hope the front five can step up a few notches against the Fijians.

Saw that and there’s and article in the Fail
About recruiting Adam Jones to help.

It will be a different challenge next week. I hope we put out the strongest team possible otherwise I can’t see us getting a win this autumn.

Sandydragon wrote:Saw that and there’s and article in the Fail
About recruiting Adam Jones to help.

It will be a different challenge next week. I hope we put out the strongest team possible otherwise I can’t see us getting a win this autumn.

He should have been offered a coaching role by the WRU when he retired tho I suspect the way he ended his Wales career wouldn't have helped with his decision making had he been offered a coaching role, Harlequins are reaping the benefits, whereas Gethin was a brilliant Loosehead he wasn't a brilliant scrummager.

Some positives from the weekend were we had a much improved lineout and obviously Ellis Jenkins' performance, he looks like a future Wales Captain.

Numbers wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Saw that and there’s and article in the Fail
About recruiting Adam Jones to help.

It will be a different challenge next week. I hope we put out the strongest team possible otherwise I can’t see us getting a win this autumn.

He should have been offered a coaching role by the WRU when he retired tho I suspect the way he ended his Wales career wouldn't have helped with his decision making had he been offered a coaching role, Harlequins are reaping the benefits, whereas Gethin was a brilliant Loosehead he wasn't a brilliant scrummager.

Some positives from the weekend were we had a much improved lineout and obviously Ellis Jenkins' performance, he looks like a future Wales Captain.

It looks as if Elias put in some hard week in training to get his throw in better shape. It’s hard throwing in to a line out like South Africa where they have very tall and sharp operators.

normanski wrote:

Numbers wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Saw that and there’s and article in the Fail
About recruiting Adam Jones to help.

It will be a different challenge next week. I hope we put out the strongest team possible otherwise I can’t see us getting a win this autumn.

He should have been offered a coaching role by the WRU when he retired tho I suspect the way he ended his Wales career wouldn't have helped with his decision making had he been offered a coaching role, Harlequins are reaping the benefits, whereas Gethin was a brilliant Loosehead he wasn't a brilliant scrummager.

Some positives from the weekend were we had a much improved lineout and obviously Ellis Jenkins' performance, he looks like a future Wales Captain.

It looks as if Elias put in some hard week in training to get his throw in better shape. It’s hard throwing in to a line out like South Africa where they have very tall and sharp operators.

Aye, and the weather was tricky so hats off to his efforts.

Apparently the South African media are moaning about the ref, particularly the disallowed try and our illegal tactics at stopping their driving maul.

It’s getting to the point where I really hope England or Scotland stuff them. Tedious anti-rugby aside, constant whinging about officials should be confined to soccer.

You'd hope that any national forwards coach would be a scrum and lineout expert. If not, a specialist should be brought in.

I hope we go with a fairly similar team this week, not that I think the Fijians will beat us but because we need more time together to gell for the Aussies the week after. There's room for a couple of experimental selections but not much more IMO.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:You'd hope that any national forwards coach would be a scrum and lineout expert. If not, a specialist should be brought in.

I hope we go with a fairly similar team this week, not that I think the Fijians will beat us but because we need more time together to gell for the Aussies the week after. There's room for a couple of experimental selections but not much more IMO.

The Fail are predicting mass changes. I sincerely hope not as Fiji will be fancying their chances.

Sandydragon wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:You'd hope that any national forwards coach would be a scrum and lineout expert. If not, a specialist should be brought in.

I hope we go with a fairly similar team this week, not that I think the Fijians will beat us but because we need more time together to gell for the Aussies the week after. There's room for a couple of experimental selections but not much more IMO.

The Fail are predicting mass changes. I sincerely hope not as Fiji will be fancying their chances.

Yeah, hope not. Most of those changes are okay in isolation but not all at once, please.

South Africa play a brand of rugby which makes for close games , if wales could generate fast ball and use it outside Biggar I reckon you would have won.

Biggar worked his arse off but for some reason there was no space when wales needed it

whatisthejava wrote:South Africa play a brand of rugby which makes for close games , if wales could generate fast ball and use it outside Biggar I reckon you would have won.

Biggar worked his arse off but for some reason there was no space when wales needed it

That Bokke defence is suffocating. I suspect Priestland could have caused it some issues but no point second guessing after the act. I think with a full strength team we could have won that. Their bench is very good. Ours didn’t really change anything.

Sandydragon wrote: That Bokke defence is suffocating. I suspect Priestland could have caused it some issues but no point second guessing after the act. I think with a full strength team we could have won that. Their bench is very good. Ours didn’t really change anything.

You have struggled with quick ball with most of your 10s. I don’t think it’s a 10 problem , possibly the moves are to easily closed down by the umbrella attack

whatisthejava wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: That Bokke defence is suffocating. I suspect Priestland could have caused it some issues but no point second guessing after the act. I think with a full strength team we could have won that. Their bench is very good. Ours didn’t really change anything.

You have struggled with quick ball with most of your 10s. I don’t think it’s a 10 problem , possibly the moves are to easily closed down by the umbrella attack

Agreed. We still have a lot of Gatlandesque moved where a single runner hits it up and we live from side to side until someone nods off and creates a gap. The Bokke caused a lot of slow ball for us on the weekend and that just kills everything. Often when we did try to give it some width we got turned over so there is a transition in place which I don’t feel the whole team have nailed down yet.

Scotland’s performance against the Boks today puts our game last week in a better light. When you think we had so many first choice injuries which restricted Pivac’s starting and bench options then we did really well. Bodes well for Australia methinks.

normanski wrote:Scotland’s performance against the Boks today puts our game last week in a better light. When you think we had so many first choice injuries which restricted Pivac’s starting and bench options then we did really well. Bodes well for Australia methinks.

Made me feel better too. We should remember that the Bokke are very good at scrums and mauls and not beat ourselves up because our weakened team failed to deal with them.

Sandydragon wrote:

normanski wrote:Scotland’s performance against the Boks today puts our game last week in a better light. When you think we had so many first choice injuries which restricted Pivac’s starting and bench options then we did really well. Bodes well for Australia methinks.

Made me feel better too. We should remember that the Bokke are very good at scrums and mauls and not beat ourselves up because our weakened team failed to deal with them.

Agreed!