Snap General Election called

[Sandydragon]

Messed up by starting the proper investigative procedure and then acting on receiving the report? To me, it reinforces the idea that he’s trying to bring some due process back to govt. which, given the reaction when Boris didn’t follow due process, I thought would be welcomed. I’m very much in favour of political leaders not making decisions based on how outraged Twitter is. Starmer leads in a similar fashion and though neither will present HIGNFY or have their name chanted at Glastonbury, I’m glad both of them are in charge of their party instead of their predecessors - both of them in Sunak’s case.
From what I’ve read, Zahawi has burnt all his bridges flip flopping around during the end of Boris’s reign and the ensuing leadership election. I doubt anybody in the pcp is remotely concerned he’s left a fairly minor role.

I agree in part that having an enquiry and following proper procedure is valid and that Starmer especially is playing dickish politics by framing it as Sunak being weak and indecisive. However, the Tories have already poisoned the well of "we should go through due process and wait until we have the report to act," by first attacking Corbyn for not taking immediate action and sacking people on first news article, and then by using it as an excuse to protect Boris during the COVID breaches by "waiting for a report" on facts that were self-evident, so now the due process sounds like it's bullshit.

While I don't care for Starmer or his safety-first, no-values, style of politics, his early decisions were clever and are paying off now - by being ruthless with anybody who offered even a hint of scandal or something embarrassing to the party, he's got carte blanche to use the vindictive you-should've-known-you-should've-acted-already environment that the Conservatives created as a weapon against them while being (relatively) secure against any blowback. And Sunak's lost a lot of the newspapers (admittedly some of them only because of daring to have brown skin, rather than any values), so they're happy to join in.

In short, you're right and so is Sunak. But the Tories shat the bed, so they have to lie in it. If Sunak was smarter/in a stronger position, he should've aped Starmer and told Zahawi that he needed to offer his resignation immediately for embarrassing the party, regardless of the enquiry. But he wouldn't or couldn't, so here he is, being beaten by the stick he helped carve.

Puja

‘Your predecessors repeatedly made a mistake which means you must now repeat the mistake for all time’ is an interesting attack line.
Starmer identified Labour’s biggest weakness under he predecessor - the antiemetic underbelly - and dealt with it as it needed to be dealt with and is rightly praised. Sunak is looking to deal with one of the biggest weaknesses under his predecessors - failing to stick to due process - but is in the wrong! Horses for courses. Everything in the first nearly 100 days in office have been about deliberate, well evidenced decision making and I think that’s not only just who he is but a very public u-turn on how his predecessors ran their govts. Ultimately, this will be nothing but a footnote in history come the next election but a body of evidence that the Cons are no longer run without a care for the consequences of their actions will be front and centre, albeit it’s probably too late.
Beating someone with the following due process stick is a dangerous tactic in the long term.

I think if you asked 100 members of the general public, they would identify that more as corruption than a failure to follow process (albeit I can see the link absolutely). They want Sunak to get tough on Tory corruption; this last week wasn't the way to demonstrate that. A cynical operator, Blair for instance, would have demanded a resignation, after which Zahawi would have re-emerged Phoenix like 6 months later when everyone had forgotten. Sunak is trying to play an honest deck, but its politically dealing with the wrong problem.

[Sandydragon]

Starmer also needs to reflect on how Rosie Duffield has been treated.

I will note that the attack line of "How Rosie Duffield has been treated" is something which has a lot of fantasy around the fact and also cannot be easily discussed without getting into the topic of conversation which isn't allowed on the board. I know I'm not a mod on the Politics forum, but I think we should leave it there and stay friends.

Not least because I don't want to reward the Conservatives for their culture war bullshit to distract from all their failings.

Puja

well I saw what happened in parliament to her, did you. I'm not making a political point or cultural one per se but a human one. I was not esp aware of the history prior to that.

I was not aware of such a discussion being sacrosanct either.

Puja is pointing out Hammy's rule on no discussion of trans-gender issues on this board. Given that Duffield has been heavily involved in that debate, I'd suggest that its very hard to discuss her recent issues with the Labour Party without also discussing transgender ones. Please steer clear of any discussion involving transgender issues or views.

[Banquo]

I will note that the attack line of "How Rosie Duffield has been treated" is something which has a lot of fantasy around the fact and also cannot be easily discussed without getting into the topic of conversation which isn't allowed on the board. I know I'm not a mod on the Politics forum, but I think we should leave it there and stay friends.

Not least because I don't want to reward the Conservatives for their culture war bullshit to distract from all their failings.

Puja

well I saw what happened in parliament to her, did you. I'm not making a political point or cultural one per se but a human one. I was not esp aware of the history prior to that.

I was not aware of such a discussion being sacrosanct either.

Puja is pointing out Hammy's rule on no discussion of trans-gender issues on this board. Given that Duffield has been heavily involved in that debate, I'd suggest that its very hard to discuss her recent issues with the Labour Party without also discussing transgender ones. Please steer clear of any discussion involving transgender issues or views.

'kay.

[Mellsblue]

I agree in part that having an enquiry and following proper procedure is valid and that Starmer especially is playing dickish politics by framing it as Sunak being weak and indecisive. However, the Tories have already poisoned the well of "we should go through due process and wait until we have the report to act," by first attacking Corbyn for not taking immediate action and sacking people on first news article, and then by using it as an excuse to protect Boris during the COVID breaches by "waiting for a report" on facts that were self-evident, so now the due process sounds like it's bullshit.

While I don't care for Starmer or his safety-first, no-values, style of politics, his early decisions were clever and are paying off now - by being ruthless with anybody who offered even a hint of scandal or something embarrassing to the party, he's got carte blanche to use the vindictive you-should've-known-you-should've-acted-already environment that the Conservatives created as a weapon against them while being (relatively) secure against any blowback. And Sunak's lost a lot of the newspapers (admittedly some of them only because of daring to have brown skin, rather than any values), so they're happy to join in.

In short, you're right and so is Sunak. But the Tories shat the bed, so they have to lie in it. If Sunak was smarter/in a stronger position, he should've aped Starmer and told Zahawi that he needed to offer his resignation immediately for embarrassing the party, regardless of the enquiry. But he wouldn't or couldn't, so here he is, being beaten by the stick he helped carve.

Puja

‘Your predecessors repeatedly made a mistake which means you must now repeat the mistake for all time’ is an interesting attack line.
Starmer identified Labour’s biggest weakness under he predecessor - the antiemetic underbelly - and dealt with it as it needed to be dealt with and is rightly praised. Sunak is looking to deal with one of the biggest weaknesses under his predecessors - failing to stick to due process - but is in the wrong! Horses for courses. Everything in the first nearly 100 days in office have been about deliberate, well evidenced decision making and I think that’s not only just who he is but a very public u-turn on how his predecessors ran their govts. Ultimately, this will be nothing but a footnote in history come the next election but a body of evidence that the Cons are no longer run without a care for the consequences of their actions will be front and centre, albeit it’s probably too late.
Beating someone with the following due process stick is a dangerous tactic in the long term.

I think if you asked 100 members of the general public, they would identify that more as corruption than a failure to follow process (albeit I can see the link absolutely). They want Sunak to get tough on Tory corruption; this last week wasn't the way to demonstrate that. A cynical operator, Blair for instance, would have demanded a resignation, after which Zahawi would have re-emerged Phoenix like 6 months later when everyone had forgotten. Sunak is trying to play an honest deck, but its politically dealing with the wrong problem.

You assume he wants Zahawi back which I very much doubt he does given previous and the fact that Zahawi backed Truss and Johnson rather than Sunak. What makes you think Sunak has gone in to bat for him? The easy thing would’ve been to listen to the mob and get rid. I think he showed a decent amount of back bone.
I’m quite happy that we’ve gone through a process to prove someone deserved to lose their job rather than having trial by headline/social media.
I’m also enjoying how we moved on from ‘what’s the point of Johnson having an ethics adviser and not using or listening to them’ to ‘what’s the point of Sunak having an ethics adviser he should just act as he sees fit’.

[Banquo]

‘Your predecessors repeatedly made a mistake which means you must now repeat the mistake for all time’ is an interesting attack line.
Starmer identified Labour’s biggest weakness under he predecessor - the antiemetic underbelly - and dealt with it as it needed to be dealt with and is rightly praised. Sunak is looking to deal with one of the biggest weaknesses under his predecessors - failing to stick to due process - but is in the wrong! Horses for courses. Everything in the first nearly 100 days in office have been about deliberate, well evidenced decision making and I think that’s not only just who he is but a very public u-turn on how his predecessors ran their govts. Ultimately, this will be nothing but a footnote in history come the next election but a body of evidence that the Cons are no longer run without a care for the consequences of their actions will be front and centre, albeit it’s probably too late.
Beating someone with the following due process stick is a dangerous tactic in the long term.

I think if you asked 100 members of the general public, they would identify that more as corruption than a failure to follow process (albeit I can see the link absolutely). They want Sunak to get tough on Tory corruption; this last week wasn't the way to demonstrate that. A cynical operator, Blair for instance, would have demanded a resignation, after which Zahawi would have re-emerged Phoenix like 6 months later when everyone had forgotten. Sunak is trying to play an honest deck, but its politically dealing with the wrong problem.

You assume he wants Zahawi back which I very much doubt he does given previous and the fact that Zahawi backed Truss and Johnson rather than Sunak. What makes you think Sunak has gone in to bat for him? The easy thing would’ve been to listen to the mob and get rid. I think he showed a decent amount of back bone.
I’m quite happy that we’ve gone through a process to prove someone deserved to lose their job rather than having trial by headline/social media.
I’m also enjoying how we moved on from ‘what’s the point of Johnson having an ethics adviser and not using or listening to them’ to ‘what’s the point of Sunak having an ethics adviser he should just act as he sees fit’.

Burn the witch!

[Which Tyler]

https://archive.ph/cuiN3#selection-3699.0-3707.172

Sunak Plans to Strengthen Anti-Protest Laws With Police Powers
UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak plans to strengthen anti-protest legislation, giving police additional powers to clamp down on demonstrations even before they've caused any disruption.
The government on Monday will propose an amendment to its own Public Order Bill — currently working its way through the House of Lords — to broaden the definition of what constitutes "serious disruption," according to a statement from Sunak's office.

...

ARTICLE CONTINUES

[Which Tyler]

Our of interest, I'm sure these two things are entirely unrelated... right?

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/echr-asks-britain-respond-election-interference-legal-claim-2023-01-19/

ECHR asks Britain to respond to election interference legal claim - 19/01/2023

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/05/tory-mps-to-push-for-uk-exit-from-european-convention-of-human-rights

Tory MPs to push for UK exit from European convention on human rights - 05/02/2023

[Which Tyler]

Oh goodie - another vote of no confidence is on the horizon.
What's the record for most PMs without a GE? This lot must have smashed it!

[morepork]

Are you fucking serious?

[Puja]

I'm baffled by Sunak's decision-making in looking to try and solve the problem in the first place. Surely he must've known that it's utterly insoluble, given the red lines drawn by his own party - he either accepts a border in the Irish sea, he puts a border between Northern and the Republic, or he {shudders} compromises with the EU on standards. All three options will result in revolt by enough of his MPs that he can't govern.

Surely he'd've been better kicking the can down the road and waiting till he was voted out of power in January. By trying to fix the unfixable, he may not even get to January.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

I'm baffled by Sunak's decision-making in looking to try and solve the problem in the first place. Surely he must've known that it's utterly insoluble, given the red lines drawn by his own party - he either accepts a border in the Irish sea, he puts a border between Northern and the Republic, or he {shudders} compromises with the EU on standards. All three options will result in revolt by enough of his MPs that he can't govern.

Surely he'd've been better kicking the can down the road and waiting till he was voted out of power in January. By trying to fix the unfixable, he may not even get to January.

Puja

Well fair play to him for trying to fix it I suppose. What a total farce.

[Banquo]

I'm baffled by Sunak's decision-making in looking to try and solve the problem in the first place. Surely he must've known that it's utterly insoluble, given the red lines drawn by his own party - he either accepts a border in the Irish sea, he puts a border between Northern and the Republic, or he {shudders} compromises with the EU on standards. All three options will result in revolt by enough of his MPs that he can't govern.

Surely he'd've been better kicking the can down the road and waiting till he was voted out of power in January. By trying to fix the unfixable, he may not even get to January.

Puja

yeah imagine trying to do the right thing. Shocking

[Sandydragon]

Oh goodie - another vote of no confidence is on the horizon.
What's the record for most PMs without a GE? This lot must have smashed it!

Wait for it……

…bring back Boris

[Puja]

I'm baffled by Sunak's decision-making in looking to try and solve the problem in the first place. Surely he must've known that it's utterly insoluble, given the red lines drawn by his own party - he either accepts a border in the Irish sea, he puts a border between Northern and the Republic, or he {shudders} compromises with the EU on standards. All three options will result in revolt by enough of his MPs that he can't govern.

Surely he'd've been better kicking the can down the road and waiting till he was voted out of power in January. By trying to fix the unfixable, he may not even get to January.

Puja

yeah imagine trying to do the right thing. Shocking

Positing a politician being motivated by trying to do the right thing? A *Conservative* politician?! Wow.

Wait for it……

…bring back Boris

That thought had occurred to me. I think if there's another leadership contest, he'll likely win it unless they nobble him before it gets to the membership.

Puja

[Banquo]

I'm baffled by Sunak's decision-making in looking to try and solve the problem in the first place. Surely he must've known that it's utterly insoluble, given the red lines drawn by his own party - he either accepts a border in the Irish sea, he puts a border between Northern and the Republic, or he {shudders} compromises with the EU on standards. All three options will result in revolt by enough of his MPs that he can't govern.

Surely he'd've been better kicking the can down the road and waiting till he was voted out of power in January. By trying to fix the unfixable, he may not even get to January.

Puja

yeah imagine trying to do the right thing. Shocking

Positing a politician being motivated by trying to do the right thing? A *Conservative* politician?! Wow.

Wait for it……

…bring back Boris

That thought had occurred to me. I think if there's another leadership contest, he'll likely win it unless they nobble him before it gets to the membership.

Puja

lost me. thanked me. unthanked me. All too much

[Puja]

yeah imagine trying to do the right thing. Shocking

Positing a politician being motivated by trying to do the right thing? A *Conservative* politician?! Wow.

Wait for it……

…bring back Boris

That thought had occurred to me. I think if there's another leadership contest, he'll likely win it unless they nobble him before it gets to the membership.

Puja

lost me. thanked me. unthanked me. All too much

I slipped and hit the wrong button. Does it tell you that you've been "Unthanked" then as a notification, or were you just keeping an eye on the post for the 3 seconds that you'd been thanked?

Puja

[Banquo]

Positing a politician being motivated by trying to do the right thing? A *Conservative* politician?! Wow.



That thought had occurred to me. I think if there's another leadership contest, he'll likely win it unless they nobble him before it gets to the membership.

Puja

lost me. thanked me. unthanked me. All too much

I slipped and hit the wrong button. Does it tell you that you've been "Unthanked" then as a notification, or were you just keeping an eye on the post for the 3 seconds that you'd been thanked?

Puja

tells you. micro passive bullying

[Banquo]

doubling down is a -good work, b- migrating from passive to active

[Puja]

Oh goodie - another vote of no confidence is on the horizon.
What's the record for most PMs without a GE? This lot must have smashed it!

Wait for it……

…bring back Boris

God yes, maximum comedy option.

You say that, but I'm worried he could turn it around. He's a twat, but he's got something voters like and his braggadocio and bullshit combination could be appealing against the careful-careful focus-group persona of Starmer. Plus the press love him.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

Wait for it……

…bring back Boris

God yes, maximum comedy option.

You say that, but I'm worried he could turn it around. He's a twat, but he's got something voters like and his braggadocio and bullshit combination could be appealing against the careful-careful focus-group persona of Starmer. Plus the press love him.

Puja

Or we could get Mordaunt. It seems less likely now but still definitely a possibility. She would be the fresh face of yet another rebrand for the Tories. We'd be exhorted to 'give her a chance, she's only just got here'. And she's definitely got more charisma than Starmer.

Having said that the return of Boris does seem more and more likely. And while I don't think he would win the election for the Tories, he would probably get them more seats than Sunak (even if he lost his own ).

[Sandydragon]

If this is THE issue that the ERG are going to revolt over, then let’s hope they just get on with it. This king over the water bullshit is getting very tiresome.

[Stom]

If this is THE issue that the ERG are going to revolt over, then let’s hope they just get on with it. This king over the water bullshit is getting very tiresome.

ERG will revolt over every issue, as they want something that, while not technically impossible, is unpalatable for pretty much everyone except them...

So, the longer we allow the Tories to flounder while listening to the ERG, and being beholden to these feckwits, the better.

Oh, and someone at the Labour party should definitely be funding a smear campaign against all politicians in the ERG. There should be social posts around their ties to the banking sector/businesses with poor conditions/etc., that can be used to paint the picture Labour need for a complete whitewash.

Don't go the moral highground route, you know stupid people won't vote for that. Go for the jugular.

It's why I think Starmer has gone the right way. Don't do the politics that are correct, do the politics that will do the most damage to the Tories amongst their own support. You're not going to get that on immigration, Rwanda, Brexit, trans issues...anything like that.

[Sandydragon]

Starker is apparently prepared to support any reasonable deal with the EU, which puts Sunak in a pickle. Risk losing or be seen to be relying on Labour votes. I wonder if Sunak might just be tempted to go for an early election just to restore some discipline?

[Stom]

Starker is apparently prepared to support any reasonable deal with the EU, which puts Sunak in a pickle. Risk losing or be seen to be relying on Labour votes. I wonder if Sunak might just be tempted to go for an early election just to restore some discipline?

Exactly. I understand a lot of more "radical"/less right wing Labour supporters/normal fucking people are upset at Starmer for not preaching more human, reasonable policies, but he's playing a blinder in setting Labour up to spend 20 years in power here.

[morepork]

Fuck me, really spoiled for choice aren't you?