RugbyRebels

Mellsblue wrote:I know this is Rugby Rebels but I’m not getting into an argument over the meaning of plenty
I don’t think the softest of soft Brexits would satisfy Leavers, you do. Unless one of us decides to study for a doctorate on the subject I doubt we’ll find out the truth!

Damn, I thought we could have got at least a couple more pages out of that.

A soft Brexit won't satisfy all leavers but it might well satisfy enough of them.

Hopefully, the media having noticed and published (and us spreading) this means that it won't happen; but...

Anyone protesting today - stay safe.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 95161.html

Brexit: Far-right groups threaten to riot at London protests as Boris Johnson warned over language
‘It’s time to f*** s*** up,’ extremists threaten after parliament moves to block no-deal Brexit

Also, someone made this, not an original comparison, but well put together.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:I know this is Rugby Rebels but I’m not getting into an argument over the meaning of plenty
I don’t think the softest of soft Brexits would satisfy Leavers, you do. Unless one of us decides to study for a doctorate on the subject I doubt we’ll find out the truth!

Damn, I thought we could have got at least a couple more pages out of that.

A soft Brexit won't satisfy all leavers but it might well satisfy enough of them.

I’m up for giving it a go!!

I’m sure it will. I think something along the lines of Common Market 2.0 would be acceptable. It is pretty much what the official Leave campaign stood on and gets you out of most of the mechanisms and institutions that piss people off, ie the ones I listed when showing WT I didn’t think Norway = brino. My disagreement with you was that you couldn’t leave the EU but stay in the CU, SM, CAP, CFP etc etc and please most/enough/plenty Leavers. Another good thing about Common Market 2.0 is that it keeps freedom of movement which is the thing that seems to have emotionally affected people the most. Stom is rightly worried about it and it’s causing my mother in law (and therefore my wife and therefore me), and all the other expats she knows in France, a lot of stress.

Before anyone picks me up on the fact that I’ve argued there should be no need for compromise. I still believe that if you lose a vote (which I did) then you lose, and I still believe that Canada++ would be closest to what Leave campaigned on. Admittedly, there is ambiguity on whether that included staying in the SM depending on who you listened to!! However, if Canada++ isn’t acceptable, and it may have now been ruled out unilaterally and seemingly out of nowhere by Macron, and freedom of movement is, rightly, such a big concern then I think Common Market 2.0 should tick enough of the boxes for Leavers. Plus, as mentioned above, there were those such as Hannan who said that Brexit didn’t mean leaving the SM. Though, a lot of Leavers think he’s an idiot and thoroughly wrong on every other point he makes!

Al that must gives us at least enough for another page

canta_brian wrote:

Stones of granite wrote:

canta_brian wrote:
There is also the idea that he could discharge the requirement of this bill by asking for an extension and then (in full irony mode) use the UK’s veto to stop the EU granting the extension.

I thought that the suggestion that UK could veto the extension had already been shot down?

Has it? I must have missed that. That is good then.

Mellsblue wrote:

canta_brian wrote:

Stones of granite wrote: I thought that the suggestion that UK could veto the extension had already been shot down?

Has it? I must have missed that. That is good then.

Thank you - makes perfect sense, but you never know with these things

Mellsblue wrote:

canta_brian wrote:

Stones of granite wrote: I thought that the suggestion that UK could veto the extension had already been shot down?

Has it? I must have missed that. That is good then.

Thank you - good knowledge!

Puja

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

canta_brian wrote: Has it? I must have missed that. That is good then.

Thank you - good knowledge!

Puja

Thank you. I can copy and paste a link to almost anything these days. Ah, you meant Don Walsh, didn’t you.

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Thank you - good knowledge!

Puja

Thank you. I can copy and paste a link to almost anything these days. Ah, you meant Don Walsh, didn’t you.

You knew where that particular knowledge was to be found, which was a step above anyone else in the conversation.

Puja

Makes sense, surely you can’t veto your own request, otherwise why bring it.

Sandydragon wrote:Makes sense, surely you can’t veto your own request, otherwise why bring it.

You could request one thing, then get something different back e.g. a longer term.

Banquo wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Makes sense, surely you can’t veto your own request, otherwise why bring it.

You could request one thing, then get something different back e.g. a longer term.

I believe the bill has those eventualities covered.
But it's highly, highly unlikely to be a lo get delay as that plays into the next EU budget talks, leaving them not knowing how much €€€ they have to distribute. Though I guess they couldmoffer a 5 year extension...

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Makes sense, surely you can’t veto your own request, otherwise why bring it.

You could request one thing, then get something different back e.g. a longer term.

I believe the bill has those eventualities covered.
But it's highly, highly unlikely to be a lo get delay as that plays into the next EU budget talks, leaving them not knowing how much €€€ they have to distribute. Though I guess they couldmoffer a 5 year extension...

I'd read different, but who knows. Stinking pile of shyte

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote: You could request one thing, then get something different back e.g. a longer term.

I believe the bill has those eventualities covered.
But it's highly, highly unlikely to be a longer delay as that plays into the next EU budget talks, leaving them not knowing how much €€€ they have to distribute. Though I guess they couldmoffer a 5 year extension...

I'd read different, but who knows. Stinking pile of shyte

As you say, who knows, but this is what the BBC think:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49612757
"What if the EU asks for a different date?

Mr Benn's bill sets the length of any further extension to three months.

But if the other EU states respond with a different date, Mr Johnson would be forced to accept it unless MPs vote to reject it within two days."

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote: I believe the bill has those eventualities covered.
But it's highly, highly unlikely to be a longer delay as that plays into the next EU budget talks, leaving them not knowing how much €€€ they have to distribute. Though I guess they couldmoffer a 5 year extension...

I'd read different, but who knows. Stinking pile of shyte

As you say, who knows, but this is what the BBC think:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49612757
"What if the EU asks for a different date?

Mr Benn's bill sets the length of any further extension to three months.

But if the other EU states respond with a different date, Mr Johnson would be forced to accept it unless MPs vote to reject it within two days."

Have to also look to EU law, which has precedence. That talks to UK govt, rather than Parliament. I have no idea though, and it’s a sorry state to get to this.

Banquo wrote: Have to also look to EU law, which has precedence. That talks to UK govt, rather than Parliament. I have no idea though, and it’s a sorry state to get to this.

Of course. The EU can offer any extension they like, or none at all.
My understanding though, is that the Benn bill means that the government has to either accept what it's offered, or put it to a parliamentary vote. Our government doesn't have the authority to reject it without parliamentary support - which is kinda the point.

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote: Have to also look to EU law, which has precedence. That talks to UK govt, rather than Parliament. I have no idea though, and it’s a sorry state to get to this.

Of course. The EU can offer any extension they like, or none at all.
My understanding though, is that the Benn bill means that the government has to either accept what it's offered, or out it to a parliamentary vote. Our government doesn't have the authority to reject it without parliamentary support - which is kinda the point.

This is what I have read, too.
Times have a story that the rebel alliance - ridiculous name - have struck agreement with the EU that a three month extension will definitely be granted.
The Spartans - ridiculous name - have, predictably, lost their s**t with ridiculous things such as:

Which Tyler wrote:Also, someone made this, not an original comparison, but well put together.

BBC reporting that Amber Rudd has just resigned from the government citing unfair treatment of rebel Conservative MPs.

I did wonder when she would remember any principles she might once have had.

Sandydragon wrote:BBC reporting that Amber Rudd has just resigned from the government citing unfair treatment of rebel Conservative MPs.

I did wonder when she would remember any principles she might once have had.

Quitting the party as well
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49623737

There must be other moderate tories aghast at what's happened to their party. How many will have the courage of their conditions, and how many will keep their head down and support their team?

Sandydragon wrote:BBC reporting that Amber Rudd has just resigned from the government citing unfair treatment of rebel Conservative MPs.

I did wonder when she would remember any principles she might once have had.

Difficult to influence from the outside. I was hoping she’d help bring some sense to the cabinet table. Rather than remembering her principles she’s probably abandoning ship not to detonate future prospects.

I do wonder "what if" the 21 + Rudd + Soubrey, Boles, Allen could set up a rump Tory party for the moderates.
They've certainly got enough names and experience to do it, and presumably there are some activists and donors who'd follow. I believe GoFundMe cant be used for political fundraising, by it I'm damned sure they could set something up.
If some of the other moderate tories had a natural home to go to which they didn't feel was a betrayal of their team (especially if they feel betrayed by their team), with people they know and trust. How big could that party get and how quickly?
Start with the 25 above, it would already be the 4th biggest party in Westminster, and wouldn't need many more to overtake the SNP.

Johnson can probably count on the ERG, but anyone else? In the face of a natural home led by the likes of Hammond Rudd, Clarke, Stewart, Soames... Especially if Cummings sticks to his current tactics of pissing off all is allies-of-convenience?

Which Tyler wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:BBC reporting that Amber Rudd has just resigned from the government citing unfair treatment of rebel Conservative MPs.

I did wonder when she would remember any principles she might once have had.

Quitting the party as well
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49623737

There must be other moderate tories aghast at what's happened to their party. How many will have the courage of their conditions, and how many will keep their head down and support their team?

I'd say that the Conservative party is disintegrating. Except that it's actually becoming the Brexit party. How long before Farage cuts a deal with BJ and joins?

Son of Mathonwy wrote: I'd say that the Conservative party is disintegrating. Except that it's actually becoming the Brexit party. How long before Farage cuts a deal with BJ and joins?

But, I like the term "schism" - it's etymologically satisfying.

And yes, it does look like BJ is determined to become the Brexit Party without Farage (Cummings wouldn't let that bit change, though he'd probably like Banks' millions) it leaves a gaping hole for a new centre-right party to take.

Labour to the left, Lib Dem centre left, ToryRump centre right, Conservative to the right.

It's certainly... interesting times

There is plenty of talk about those who have been booted out but aren’t standing down running on a Independent Conservative ticket at the next GE with the intention of coming back once the Spartans - have I mentioned what a ridiculous name that is - have been ousted. Small whispers of just breaking off completely and forming a Liberal Conservative party. I think the latter is a grassroots ops and the former the preferred plan for the MPs.