Europe - in or out - RR Votes

[BigAl]

Well it's already looking like the EU are hanging any future trade deal on the continued free movement of labour, so any brexiter hoping the Poles were going home is in for a disappointment.

[Len]

Well it's already looking like the EU are hanging any future trade deal on the continued free movement of labour, so any brexiter hoping the Poles were going home is in for a disappointment.

As if they could be rounded up anyway. How many human rights laws would it violate to round up Polish people and dump them homeless?

[Len]

Well it's already looking like the EU are hanging any future trade deal on the continued free movement of labour, so any brexiter hoping the Poles were going home is in for a disappointment.

As if they could be rounded up anyway. How many human rights laws would it violate to round up Polish people and dump them homeless?

[cashead]

Well it's already looking like the EU are hanging any future trade deal on the continued free movement of labour, so any brexiter hoping the Poles were going home is in for a disappointment.

Judging from the rhetoric coming from either side, Article 50 will basically result in Britain having to make a fair few concessions to secure a release that they might be going through buyer's remorse over.

The Brexiters are either playing down their promises or urging caution, while the EU is basically telling them to fuck off yesterday.

[rowan]

On another note, are you a Brit living in turkey? Just curious based on your final comment.

I'm Hong Kong-born, New Zealand-raised, American university education, been in Europe since last century and Turkey since 2005. So not sure what I am to be honest, but I qualified for a British passport through the Hong Kong connection (not eligible for a Chinese one, however). & the only reason I bothered to get the British one was so I could work in the EU.

[Banquo]

I'm about to lose two big contracts absent of some clarity as to what happens next, and I doubt I/we'd be the only business that has some nervous overseas investors/clients. All very well saying lets work our way through it, but there will be some costs the more this drags out, and from my point of view we should have been told going into the vote what was actually going to be negotiated, okay they couldn't have possibly told us the outcome, but they could have said these are the areas we want change, and these areas we're not going to touch, well they could have done were they organised and understanding of what they wanted to achieve rather than an amalgam of people who have various issues with Europe, the EU and the political status quo with no actual idea of what they want next and no chance of agreeing on it.

And speed is important, emotions will be running high in a few months too if we're making people redundant as a consequence of this.

It's 4 weeks out of 104, and as I've said informal negotiations can begin whenever. Once article 50 is triggered you've got 2 years and if you get to the end of those two years and negotiations are not quite finished then tough, the divorce happens. That would lead to chaos.

Speed isn't nearly as important as getting it right. Botch the negotiations and people will suffer for years. Trade deals take years to negotiate, how anyone thinks we can 'consciously uncouple' (hat tip to Gwyneth) speedily is beyond me. Though, I have to admit, why trade deals take so long is also beyond me.

4 weeks which may cost me a fair whack of money, and 12-15 people their jobs. Or I may just sell up in which case everyone will likely be out of work. By all means take the time, but it'll come with costs too

Scaremonger!

the problem is, tales like this will happen day after day, week after week for month and months; exactly what Remain warned of and were told they were 'wrong;

You have both my sympathy and empathy.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Well it's already looking like the EU are hanging any future trade deal on the continued free movement of labour, so any brexiter hoping the Poles were going home is in for a disappointment.

Already looking? It was always going to happen. They said in advance it would happen. Everyone with half a brain knew it was going to happen. there is no access to the single market without free movement.

[Sandydragon]

On another note, are you a Brit living in turkey? Just curious based on your final comment.

I'm Hong Kong-born, New Zealand-raised, American university education, been in Europe since last century and Turkey since 2005. So not sure what I am to be honest, but I qualified for a British passport through the Hong Kong connection (not eligible for a Chinese one, however). & the only reason I bothered to get the British one was so I could work in the EU.

Fair enough, your comment about not being able to work in the eu any longer was intriguing.

[cashead]

Well it's already looking like the EU are hanging any future trade deal on the continued free movement of labour, so any brexiter hoping the Poles were going home is in for a disappointment.

Already looking? It was always going to happen. They said in advance it would happen. Everyone with half a brain knew it was going to happen. there is no access to the single market without free movement.

It's basically this:

[UGagain]

[Lizard]

So who was it that threw abuse at me for suggesting that this sort of issue was too complex and important to decide by a referendum?

You have Brexiters with Bregret because most people are Bretards.

[canta_brian]

Just not relevant. This has been a problem since the eastern block countries joined the eu. Do your research, local councils were screaming about overstretch back then. Syrian refugee crisis might have been the icing on the cake, but linking in the Arab Israfli conflict is deluded.

Fair enough. It's worth reading the whole article though, almost changes my mind about the whole Brexit thing. From my own perspective, all it means is I've lost my right to work legally in Europe - but I haven't exercised that right for over a decade anyway, and right now have no plan to do so (hypothetically-speaking, of course).

Its a good article, albeit covering a much larger scope of the worlds ills than just Brexit. Brexit is fine and could be good in the long run, I just don't think riding on the wave of scapegoating immigrants in behind 3 Eton-educated extreme pro-corporatist Conservatives is the way you want to go about it. More good can be achieved outside the EU, but so can much more bad, in simple terms.

Yes quite Jared. I can't see in that article how they think having left the Eu will actually solve any of the issues they mention.

Anyone who thinks that the people who have run the campaign for us to leave Europe have any regard for the working poor, or any plans to build a more equal society are kidding themselves. We will see the erosion of laws that ensure worker's rights rather than any policies that would see a redistribution of company profits.

[Lizard]

How do you embed video on Tapawhatsit?

[WaspInWales]

Scotland to the rescue...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-36633244

[Lizard]

So that 2nd referendum petition is up over 3 million and climbing at about 200/second.

[Digby]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36629300

Along with the change of heart on the £350 million it's almost like the had no idea what they were doing, though they're certainly staying clear they've no idea what to do next.

[Edinburgh in Exile]

So that 2nd referendum petition is up over 3 million and climbing at about 200/second.

The only way that'll get interesting, or in any way relevant is if that number gets somewhere near the total number that voted leave and is in some way verified that the cats signing it are eligible to actually vote on it. Right now, all it says to me is 3 million of the 16 million people that voted to remain want another go at it... Or worse still... It's a hell of a lot easier to vote for something if you can do it on your phone.

I'm staunch remain, but that petition doesn't reflect anything other than people don't like losing. I certainly fucking didn't.

[fivepointer]

The public have been duped and sold short. Brexit leaders have lied. Its that simple. Shame on them but equally shame on the remainers who failed to properly confront the lies, misinformation and half truths.

The referendum is the low point of our politics in my life time. Its been utterly depressing.

There were valid reasons for both leaving and remaining, and goodness knows we needed an informed, intelligent debate about how we would make our way in the world. But that didnt happen.

[Which Tyler]

As far as the petition is concerned - it means nothing really; nothing to lose in signing it; but basically meaningless - it needed it's 100k votes BEFORE voting day, not to get its first vote afterwards; and also needs more realistic targets (55% for victory not 60%; and 60% of the electorate, not 75% - it also needed to say that it wants these for ANY referendum; not just this one).

What I'm getting interested in, is at what stage does (deliberately and knowingly) lying about every single election pledge/campaigning point make it election fraud?

[rowan]

What I'm getting interested in, is at what stage does (deliberately and knowingly) lying about every single election pledge/campaigning point make it election fraud?

Never. That just makes it politics as usual

[Banquo]

The public have been duped and sold short. Brexit leaders have lied. Its that simple. Shame on them but equally shame on the remainers who failed to properly confront the lies, misinformation and half truths.

The referendum is the low point of our politics in my life time. Its been utterly depressing.

There were valid reasons for both leaving and remaining, and goodness knows we needed an informed, intelligent debate about how we would make our way in the world. But that didnt happen.

Some of the public have been duped by Brexit, some didn't listen to Remain (who were pretty clear from where I was sitting), and some had a principled objection to the EU, imo failing to distinguish that whilst the EU is a shoddy organisation, being a member of it wasn't entirely a bad thing.

I'd also add the people who made real difference weren't voting FOR anything, they were voting AGAINST the establishment.

[Banquo]

As far as the petition is concerned - it means nothing really; nothing to lose in signing it; but basically meaningless - it needed it's 100k votes BEFORE voting day, not to get its first vote afterwards; and also needs more realistic targets (55% for victory not 60%; and 60% of the electorate, not 75% - it also needed to say that it wants these for ANY referendum; not just this one).

What I'm getting interested in, is at what stage does (deliberately and knowingly) lying about every single election pledge/campaigning point make it election fraud?

There is no way they can be held accountable for the commitments though (see Farage, 350m was a mistake by the 'other' campaign)- they were a campaign, not a government or a party. So the pledges were totally empty- which was or should have been obvious and indeed fell apart under the lightest of questioning.

[Mellsblue]

The public have been duped and sold short. Brexit leaders have lied. Its that simple. Shame on them but equally shame on the remainers who failed to properly confront the lies, misinformation and half truths.

The referendum is the low point of our politics in my life time. Its been utterly depressing.

There were valid reasons for both leaving and remaining, and goodness knows we needed an informed, intelligent debate about how we would make our way in the world. But that didnt happen.

Some of the public have been duped by Brexit, some didn't listen to Remain (who were pretty clear from where I was sitting), and some had a principled objection to the EU, imo failing to distinguish that whilst the EU is a shoddy organisation, being a member of it wasn't entirely a bad thing.

I'd also add the people who made real difference weren't voting FOR anything, they were voting AGAINST the establishment.

Are you saying the Remain campaign were telling the truth, the whole and nothing but the truth? They didn't. For example, Osborne cherry picked the Treasury forecasts - a department he stripped of those very powers and gave to the OBR as they couldn't be impartial - and sold the very worst of them, ie the highly unlikely worst case scenario, as fact and then span them to sound even worse. He then promised an emergency budget would definately be enacted should we vote for Brexit. If anybody fell for that then they were duped.

[Banquo]

The public have been duped and sold short. Brexit leaders have lied. Its that simple. Shame on them but equally shame on the remainers who failed to properly confront the lies, misinformation and half truths.

The referendum is the low point of our politics in my life time. Its been utterly depressing.

There were valid reasons for both leaving and remaining, and goodness knows we needed an informed, intelligent debate about how we would make our way in the world. But that didnt happen.

Some of the public have been duped by Brexit, some didn't listen to Remain (who were pretty clear from where I was sitting), and some had a principled objection to the EU, imo failing to distinguish that whilst the EU is a shoddy organisation, being a member of it wasn't entirely a bad thing.

I'd also add the people who made real difference weren't voting FOR anything, they were voting AGAINST the establishment.

Are you saying the Remain campaign were telling the truth, the whole and nothing but the truth? They didn't. For example, Osborne cherry picked the Treasury forecasts - a department he stripped of those very powers and gave to the OBR as they couldn't be impartial - and sold the very worst of them, ie the highly unlikely worst case scenario, as fact and then span them to sound even worse. He then promised an emergency budget would definately be enacted should we vote for Brexit. If anybody fell for that then they were duped.

Fair point, but they were pretty clear on their position on the general economy, and backed up generally- and I was pretty clear they were forecasts rather than anything else. Brexit told outright porkies. Maybe that looked a marginal difference to you, but not to me- as I said clear to me, can't speak for anyone else.

[Mellsblue]

Some of the public have been duped by Brexit, some didn't listen to Remain (who were pretty clear from where I was sitting), and some had a principled objection to the EU, imo failing to distinguish that whilst the EU is a shoddy organisation, being a member of it wasn't entirely a bad thing.

I'd also add the people who made real difference weren't voting FOR anything, they were voting AGAINST the establishment.

Are you saying the Remain campaign were telling the truth, the whole and nothing but the truth? They didn't. For example, Osborne cherry picked the Treasury forecasts - a department he stripped of those very powers and gave to the OBR as they couldn't be impartial - and sold the very worst of them, ie the highly unlikely worst case scenario, as fact and then span them to sound even worse. He then promised an emergency budget would definately be enacted should we vote for Brexit. If anybody fell for that then they were duped.

Fair point, but they were pretty clear on their position on the general economy, and backed up generally- and I was pretty clear they were forecasts rather than anything else. Brexit told outright porkies. Maybe that looked a marginal difference to you, but not to me- as I said clear to me, can't speak for anyone else.

Osborne's were porkies as he presented them as facts, which they weren't, and then span them even further to suit his argument. I'll agree that Leave and their £350 million was the biggest porky of the lot, though.

Let's be honest, it's been a skip full of **** from both sides with Leave's skip being slightly bigger and smellier.