Sandydragon wrote:Actually, the May government is being very restrained. The use of WMDs by a foreign government is an act of war. NATO article 5 could cover this if the government wanted to get carried away.
But this is the only thing, you wouldn't catch the Russians sending their subs into our waters, their planes into our airspace and whatnot
While NATO has Russia completely surrounded by military bases, and has moved right into Eastern Europe, in violation of post-Cold War agreements, enlisting the support of roof-top snipers and Neo Nazis to slaughter civilians in the Ukraine.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
Zhivago wrote:You are all insane. Why aren't we following international law on this? Doesn't it feel like our gov has something to hide? Even after Iraq, are you all still so gullible?
What do you think is being hidden?
15 years after the Iraq invasion, is it logical to assume that the government is continually lying based on that one event, or is it more logical, and perhaps more mature, to look at each event on a case by case basis?
So, why do you think this is suspect?
Ok, let's look at this case. What facts do we have?
A very rare nerve agent that was manufactured in the old USSR which is used for the first time (overseas) in the UK.
An ex Russian agent targeted after Putin has gone in the record to suggest all should be killed who betray their country.
And a bit of previous by Russia.
This substance is t rare to have come from somewhere else. Either it’s a state sponsored attack or it’s been stolen. Hence why th government have asked for an explanation, which Russia seems reluctant to give.
You may wish to do some research on nerve agents, it is possible to trace where they have originated.
kk67 wrote:The guy was a spy, then he became a double agent, then he was convicted of fraud ....and then the English gave him political asylum...?. That does seem like a legitimate target in espionage terms.
I feel for the Daughter and the Copper.....but this is a security forces balls-up in any language.
"According to Russian prosecutors, he began working for the United Kingdom's Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) in 1995 and passed on state secrets, such as the identities of Russian intelligence agents. ... He was alleged to have blown the cover of 300 Russian agents."
That's a lot of enemies...
Starting a family seems like the act of a particularly poor double agent.
Although maybe that's exactly the right thing to do..............
...I say fuck him and the Establishment morons that offered him security.
Last edited by kk67 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sandydragon wrote:Actually, the May government is being very restrained. The use of WMDs by a foreign government is an act of war. NATO article 5 could cover this if the government wanted to get carried away.
But this is the only thing, you wouldn't catch the Russians sending their subs into our waters, their planes into our airspace and whatnot
While NATO has Russia completely surrounded by military bases, and has moved right into Eastern Europe, in violation of post-Cold War agreements, enlisting the support of roof-top snipers and Neo Nazis to slaughter civilians in the Ukraine.
A post war agreement that those outside Russia suggest was never agreed.
Invasion of Ukraine.
Invasion of Georgia.
Bully tactics to Baltic states and Sweden.
kk67 wrote:The guy was a spy, then he became a double agent, then he was convicted of fraud ....and then the English gave him political asylum...?. That does seem like a legitimate target in espionage terms.
I feel for the Daughter and the Copper.....but this is a security forces balls-up in any language.
"According to Russian prosecutors, he began working for the United Kingdom's Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) in 1995 and passed on state secrets, such as the identities of Russian intelligence agents. ... He was alleged to have blown the cover of 300 Russian agents."
That's a lot of enemies...
Starting a family seems like the act of a particularly poor double agent.
Although maybe that's exactly the right thing to do..............
...I say fuck him.
Great. And those innocent people who are now in hospital?
Digby wrote:
But this is the only thing, you wouldn't catch the Russians sending their subs into our waters, their planes into our airspace and whatnot
While NATO has Russia completely surrounded by military bases, and has moved right into Eastern Europe, in violation of post-Cold War agreements, enlisting the support of roof-top snipers and Neo Nazis to slaughter civilians in the Ukraine.
A post war agreement that those outside Russia suggest was never agreed.
Invasion of Ukraine.
Invasion of Georgia.
Bully tactics to Baltic states and Sweden.
Great neighbour to have.
Yes, it was agreed, but silly Russians for believing anything that came out of a Bush's mouth (Papa Bush in this instance).
Russia did not invade the Ukraine. There was an American-backed coup, removal of a pro-Moscow government and installation of a corrupt pro-Western oligarch, Neo Nazis and others attacked ethnic Russians, burning many alive, leading the ethnic Russian majority in Crimea to vote overwhelmingly in favor of a return to Russia.
The invasion of Georgia was in response to a Georgian invasion of Ossetia, killing hundreds of civilians as they lay sleeping in their beds. Ossetians are not even ethnic Russians, but speakers of a Farsi dialect.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
Digby wrote:
But this is the only thing, you wouldn't catch the Russians sending their subs into our waters, their planes into our airspace and whatnot
While NATO has Russia completely surrounded by military bases, and has moved right into Eastern Europe, in violation of post-Cold War agreements, enlisting the support of roof-top snipers and Neo Nazis to slaughter civilians in the Ukraine.
A post war agreement that those outside Russia suggest was never agreed.
Invasion of Ukraine.
Invasion of Georgia.
Bully tactics to Baltic states and Sweden.
Great neighbour to have.
I think the Russians have a point that the part of Ukraine they took was a legacy of them not thinking the USSR would split and it's more reasonably Russian than Ukranian, though how they went about sorting that is shocking. Still more shocking is quoting Rowan however, it goes against any common notions of basic decency
Great. And those innocent people who are now in hospital?
I have edited my post. Soz.
3 people who are alive and the House of Commons is declaring a new Cold War....?
And your dickhead political leaders are asking for more dosh. ....Fack off.
3 people who now have life changing injuries as a result. And a numepber of local residents being checked up for exposure. I suspect your attitude should be very different if you lived in Salisbury.
If there is a new Cold War then Russia is the aggressor here, it’s. It the U.K. poisoning Russian citizens, repeatedly.
rowan wrote:
While NATO has Russia completely surrounded by military bases, and has moved right into Eastern Europe, in violation of post-Cold War agreements, enlisting the support of roof-top snipers and Neo Nazis to slaughter civilians in the Ukraine.
A post war agreement that those outside Russia suggest was never agreed.
Invasion of Ukraine.
Invasion of Georgia.
Bully tactics to Baltic states and Sweden.
Great neighbour to have.
Yes, it was agreed, but silly Russians for believing anything that came out of a Bush's mouth (Papa Bush in this instance).
Russia did not invade the Ukraine. There was an American-backed coup, removal of a pro-Moscow government and installation of a corrupt pro-Western oligarch, Neo Nazis and others attacked ethnic Russians, burning many alive, leading the ethnic Russian majority in Crimea to vote overwhelmingly in favor of a return to Russia.
The invasion of Georgia was in response to a Georgian invasion of Ossetia, killing hundreds of civilians as they lay sleeping in their beds. Ossetians are not even ethnic Russians, but speakers of a Farsi dialect.
Meanwhile, NATO has been carrying out war games in the Baltics and Sweden has been an accomplice in their notorious kidnapping and illegal extraditions of suspects.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
rowan wrote:
While NATO has Russia completely surrounded by military bases, and has moved right into Eastern Europe, in violation of post-Cold War agreements, enlisting the support of roof-top snipers and Neo Nazis to slaughter civilians in the Ukraine.
A post war agreement that those outside Russia suggest was never agreed.
Invasion of Ukraine.
Invasion of Georgia.
Bully tactics to Baltic states and Sweden.
Great neighbour to have.
I think the Russians have a point that the part of Ukraine they took was a legacy of them not thinking the USSR would split and it's more reasonably Russian than Ukranian, though how they went about sorting that is shocking. Still more shocking is quoting Rowan however, it goes against any common notions of basic decency
Which was a legacy of the USSR days when Moscow dispersed populations across the empire. There was no legal justification for the invasion, just a smokescreen for the useful idiots to gobble down and regurgitate.
rowan wrote:
While NATO has Russia completely surrounded by military bases, and has moved right into Eastern Europe, in violation of post-Cold War agreements, enlisting the support of roof-top snipers and Neo Nazis to slaughter civilians in the Ukraine.
A post war agreement that those outside Russia suggest was never agreed.
Invasion of Ukraine.
Invasion of Georgia.
Bully tactics to Baltic states and Sweden.
Great neighbour to have.
Yes, it was agreed, but silly Russians for believing anything that came out of a Bush's mouth (Papa Bush in this instance).
Russia did not invade the Ukraine. There was an American-backed coup, removal of a pro-Moscow government and installation of a corrupt pro-Western oligarch, Neo Nazis and others attacked ethnic Russians, burning many alive, leading the ethnic Russian majority in Crimea to vote overwhelmingly in favor of a return to Russia.
The invasion of Georgia was in response to a Georgian invasion of Ossetia, killing hundreds of civilians as they lay sleeping in their beds. Ossetians are not even ethnic Russians, but speakers of a Farsi dialect.
Meanwhile, NATO has been carrying out war games in the Baltics and Sweden has been an accomplice in their notorious kidnapping and illegal extraditions of suspects.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
Sandydragon wrote:
A post war agreement that those outside Russia suggest was never agreed.
Invasion of Ukraine.
Invasion of Georgia.
Bully tactics to Baltic states and Sweden.
Great neighbour to have.
Yes, it was agreed, but silly Russians for believing anything that came out of a Bush's mouth (Papa Bush in this instance).
Russia did not invade the Ukraine. There was an American-backed coup, removal of a pro-Moscow government and installation of a corrupt pro-Western oligarch, Neo Nazis and others attacked ethnic Russians, burning many alive, leading the ethnic Russian majority in Crimea to vote overwhelmingly in favor of a return to Russia.
The invasion of Georgia was in response to a Georgian invasion of Ossetia, killing hundreds of civilians as they lay sleeping in their beds. Ossetians are not even ethnic Russians, but speakers of a Farsi dialect.
Meanwhile, NATO has been carrying out war games in the Baltics and Sweden has been an accomplice in their notorious kidnapping and illegal extraditions of suspects.
At the invitation of the Baltic states. As sovereign states they can arrange what they want inside their own borders and in international waters.
We import 13 per cent Gazprom LNG to the UK.
Natural assets war, pipeline war really. They're all trying to steal natural assets, like the mess we've made of DRC, is why our own homegrown psychopathic morons are going to kill us all.
Last edited by kk67 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Zhivago wrote:You are all insane. Why aren't we following international law on this? Doesn't it feel like our gov has something to hide? Even after Iraq, are you all still so gullible?
In what way is the UK not following International Law? Apart, of course, from carrying out fals flag attacks with stolen Russian nerve agents, although that should be obvious.
I’ve been trying to find some legal requirement for the U.K. to inform the UN or anyone else to launch an independent investigation. Can’t find anything yet.
kk67 wrote:13 per cent Gazprom LNG import to the UK.
Lets focus on the natural assets war, whereby they're all trying to steal. Which is why our homegrown psychopathic morons are going to kill us all.
Act of war committed on British soil. It’s not our psychopathic morons who are trying to start a war.
It was committed on British soil, yes, but the case against Russia is falling apart and never actually had any substance to begin with, aside from Russophobic paranoia. As for starting wars, NATO is by far the major perpetrator in this respect - and has been basically since its inception.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
kk67 wrote:13 per cent Gazprom LNG import to the UK.
Lets focus on the natural assets war, whereby they're all trying to steal. Which is why our homegrown psychopathic morons are going to kill us all.
Act of war committed on British soil. It’s not our psychopathic morons who are trying to start a war.
Sandy,....our psychopathic morons have always loved war. It makes money and it culls the deprived population.
It gets unfortunate for the establishment when the deprived population return from war with a greater outlook.
Sandydragon wrote:
A post war agreement that those outside Russia suggest was never agreed.
Invasion of Ukraine.
Invasion of Georgia.
Bully tactics to Baltic states and Sweden.
Great neighbour to have.
I think the Russians have a point that the part of Ukraine they took was a legacy of them not thinking the USSR would split and it's more reasonably Russian than Ukranian, though how they went about sorting that is shocking. Still more shocking is quoting Rowan however, it goes against any common notions of basic decency
Which was a legacy of the USSR days when Moscow dispersed populations across the empire. There was no legal justification for the invasion, just a smokescreen for the useful idiots to gobble down and regurgitate.
I think the local populace might well have voted to align with Russia if given the choice, exploring a vote on that and how they might have split ruling functions would have made much sense. Also making more sense is that Russia will always exert huge power over the likes of Ukraine and didn't need to go anywhere close to their illegal seizure of lands
rowan wrote:
Yes, it was agreed, but silly Russians for believing anything that came out of a Bush's mouth (Papa Bush in this instance).
Russia did not invade the Ukraine. There was an American-backed coup, removal of a pro-Moscow government and installation of a corrupt pro-Western oligarch, Neo Nazis and others attacked ethnic Russians, burning many alive, leading the ethnic Russian majority in Crimea to vote overwhelmingly in favor of a return to Russia.
The invasion of Georgia was in response to a Georgian invasion of Ossetia, killing hundreds of civilians as they lay sleeping in their beds. Ossetians are not even ethnic Russians, but speakers of a Farsi dialect.
Meanwhile, NATO has been carrying out war games in the Baltics and Sweden has been an accomplice in their notorious kidnapping and illegal extraditions of suspects.
At the invitation of the Baltic states. As sovereign states they can arrange what they want inside their own borders and in international waters.
That didn't seem to apply to Cuba, now, did it? In fact, it didn't apply to Iraq, Libya, Syria or Yemen, among countless others, either. Sovereignty is one thing the US and UK have NEVER respected . . .
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
Sandydragon wrote:
What do you think is being hidden?
15 years after the Iraq invasion, is it logical to assume that the government is continually lying based on that one event, or is it more logical, and perhaps more mature, to look at each event on a case by case basis?
So, why do you think this is suspect?
Ok, let's look at this case. What facts do we have?
A very rare nerve agent that was manufactured in the old USSR which is used for the first time (overseas) in the UK.
An ex Russian agent targeted after Putin has gone in the record to suggest all should be killed who betray their country.
And a bit of previous by Russia.
This substance is t rare to have come from somewhere else. Either it’s a state sponsored attack or it’s been stolen. Hence why th government have asked for an explanation, which Russia seems reluctant to give.
You may wish to do some research on nerve agents, it is possible to trace where they have originated.
I must say, it was really fortunate that this attack happened just 7 miles away from where our experts in this field work...
And in terms of facts, you don't know that what you state is true.
We don't know it was Novichok... certainly our government isn't sharing samples of the Nerve Agent with anyone else... something to hide?
We also said it was Russia before saying it was Novichok. That's not tracing it... that's determining who it was and finding the most irrefutable 'evidence'... a Nerve Agent that no one knows much about that is only from Russia. Hard to contradict that...
Zhivago wrote:You are all insane. Why aren't we following international law on this? Doesn't it feel like our gov has something to hide? Even after Iraq, are you all still so gullible?
In what way is the UK not following International Law? Apart, of course, from carrying out fals flag attacks with stolen Russian nerve agents, although that should be obvious.
I’ve been trying to find some legal requirement for the U.K. to inform the UN or anyone else to launch an independent investigation. Can’t find anything yet.
I'll save you some time... I looked also and perhaps I overstated it. It's at least not an area I can comment on without a proper education.
I just read that the UN invited the OPCW to conduct an independent investigation. That would be most welcome, and I hope we'll co-operate. If that points the finger at Russia, then I'll be satisfied.
1) Porton Down has acknowledged in publications it has never seen any Russian “novichoks”. The UK government has absolutely no “fingerprint” information that can safely attribute this substance to Russia.
2) Until now, neither Porton Down nor the world’s experts at the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) were convinced “Novichoks” even exist.
3) The UK is refusing to provide a sample to the OPCW.
4) “Novichoks” were specifically designed to be able to be manufactured from common ingredients on any scientific bench. The Americans dismantled and studied the facility that allegedly developed them. It is completely untrue only the Russians could make them, if anybody can.
5) The “Novichok” programme was in Uzbekistan not in Russia. Its legacy was inherited by the Americans during their alliance with Karimov, not by the Russians.
In fact, it didn't apply to Iraq, Libya, Syria or Yemen, among countless others, either. Sovereignty is one thing the US and UK have NEVER respected . . .