RugbyRebels

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

ffs.

Oddly, that's 71% favouring parties whose policy is leaving the EU.

Although I suspect a reasonable portion of the 37% going for Labour or Conservatives is identity politics, rather than anything to do with their policies.

Puja

That's confused this old boy- identity politics is not the same as party politics, shewerly. Isn't that the shift we are seeing?

and yes, but nonetheless, as its EU elections, it does send a message; certainly Labour voters seem to be a bit more able to hold their nose and ignore the Leave policy at the top of the party.

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: ffs.

Oddly, that's 71% favouring parties whose policy is leaving the EU.

Although I suspect a reasonable portion of the 37% going for Labour or Conservatives is identity politics, rather than anything to do with their policies.

Puja

That's confused this old boy- identity politics is not the same as party politics, shewerly. Isn't that the shift we are seeing?

and yes, but nonetheless, as its EU elections, it does send a message; certainly Labour voters seem to be a bit more able to hold their nose and ignore the Leave policy at the top of the party.

Identity politics is where people of a particular religion, class, race, social grouping, etc vote for a party because that's part of their identity as a member of that group. The actual policies are largely irrelevant. So even if someone is virulently remain, they might vote Labour or Conservative because that's what they've always done and what people like them do, usually justified with some cognitive dissonance about the economy.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
Although I suspect a reasonable portion of the 37% going for Labour or Conservatives is identity politics, rather than anything to do with their policies.

Puja

That's confused this old boy- identity politics is not the same as party politics, shewerly. Isn't that the shift we are seeing?

and yes, but nonetheless, as its EU elections, it does send a message; certainly Labour voters seem to be a bit more able to hold their nose and ignore the Leave policy at the top of the party.

Identity politics is where people of a particular religion, class, race, social grouping, etc vote for a party because that's part of their identity as a member of that group. The actual policies are largely irrelevant. So even if someone is virulently remain, they might vote Labour or Conservative because that's what they've always done and what people like them do, usually justified with some cognitive dissonance about the economy.

Puja

IMO That's standard party politics. Identity politics as I read it is different- as per this definition 'a tendency for people of a particular religion, race, social background, etc., to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics'. Probably splitting hairs, but I associate the phrase identity politics with a different movement and trend. Happy to be eddicated

the latter part of my post refers to that cognitive dissonance. My main point is the paucity of support for anti brexit parties. Maybe this indicates how little people other than extreme brexiteers actually care about Brexit!!

I'm stuck imagining Roy Castle sing eddication is what one needs

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
Although I suspect a reasonable portion of the 37% going for Labour or Conservatives is identity politics, rather than anything to do with their policies.

Puja

That's confused this old boy- identity politics is not the same as party politics, shewerly. Isn't that the shift we are seeing?

and yes, but nonetheless, as its EU elections, it does send a message; certainly Labour voters seem to be a bit more able to hold their nose and ignore the Leave policy at the top of the party.

Identity politics is where people of a particular religion, class, race, social grouping, etc vote for a party because that's part of their identity as a member of that group. The actual policies are largely irrelevant. So even if someone is virulently remain, they might vote Labour or Conservative because that's what they've always done and what people like them do, usually justified with some cognitive dissonance about the economy.

Puja

Or put another way, identity politics refers to those people who politicians don’t care about given their votes are in the bag.


Normally.

Bojo will be taking on his sister in the European elections which presents him an interesting challenge on how to present himself

Farage says as with Brexit his group will not be getting into any discussion on policy details until after the election, though as we've just seen in the Ukraine that doesn't always matter, and being frank we saw it in the brexit referendum too so we're no better

May says her deal is the best way forward, so good if she gets it she'll give up

Corbyn hopes nobody pays attention to anything he's not saying on brexit

Cable wishes anyone would pay attention to anything he's saying about anything

Heidi Allen hopes the party isn't already a busted flush

Digby wrote:
Farage says as with Brexit his group will not be getting into any discussion on policy details until after the election, though as we've just seen in the Ukraine that doesn't always matter, and being frank we saw it in the brexit referendum too so we're no better

What a fucking tool.

A successful tool though is Nigel

In the commons Thornberry got the better of Liddington over the Irish border noting Pelosi saying Congress isn't touching a trade deal that ignores the problem of the Irish border. Sadly Emily in public at least is (willfully?) ignorant that Labour's position on the customs union isn't enough to get the job done they need to progress their position on the single market, and their position on the single market remains to have their cake and eat it because the leadership is thick as shit and hates Nato and capitalism which is what apparently the EU represents if you're batshit insane

Farage has reached the parts that other politicians can’t. The perception that politicians aren’t listening has played into his hands and he is playing a populist tune.

His simplistic remedy of leaving the EU to solve all our problems is nonsense but it’s appealing on so many levels to people who feel let down and left behind.

I remain extremely concerned around that, if we enact something as economically daft as brexit and it turns out many didn’t vote brexit in the name of sovereignty (and that remains a reasonable stance though I disagree with it on a number of fronts) where do the great unwashed turn next?

Digby wrote:I remain extremely concerned around that, if we enact something as economically daft as brexit and it turns out many didn’t vote brexit in the name of sovereignty (and that remains a reasonable stance though I disagree with it on a number of fronts) where do the great unwashed turn next?

The thing is that any economic collapse after Brexit won't have been caused by Brexit. It will have been caused by the Remainer parliament not making preparations properly and trying to reverse it, or the EU being petty and vindictive to us, or the Remainer government "talking down the country" and depressing the stock market with Project Fear. If we'd committed to it properly, like the Will Of The People (TM) wanted, then it all would've worked - the failures will be down to the Remainers screwing it up or those damned foreigners.

That's the joy of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias around an internalised belief - there's never a point at which there is too much evidence that you are wrong, there's just another reason why actually you're right.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:I remain extremely concerned around that, if we enact something as economically daft as brexit and it turns out many didn’t vote brexit in the name of sovereignty (and that remains a reasonable stance though I disagree with it on a number of fronts) where do the great unwashed turn next?

The thing is that any economic collapse after Brexit won't have been caused by Brexit. It will have been caused by the Remainer parliament not making preparations properly and trying to reverse it, or the EU being petty and vindictive to us, or the Remainer government "talking down the country" and depressing the stock market with Project Fear. If we'd committed to it properly, like the Will Of The People (TM) wanted, then it all would've worked - the failures will be down to the Remainers screwing it up or those damned foreigners.

That's the joy of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias around an internalised belief - there's never a point at which there is too much evidence that you are wrong, there's just another reason why actually you're right.

Puja

Whatever the reason supposed I remain very worried

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:I remain extremely concerned around that, if we enact something as economically daft as brexit and it turns out many didn’t vote brexit in the name of sovereignty (and that remains a reasonable stance though I disagree with it on a number of fronts) where do the great unwashed turn next?

The thing is that any economic collapse after Brexit won't have been caused by Brexit. It will have been caused by the Remainer parliament not making preparations properly and trying to reverse it, or the EU being petty and vindictive to us, or the Remainer government "talking down the country" and depressing the stock market with Project Fear. If we'd committed to it properly, like the Will Of The People (TM) wanted, then it all would've worked - the failures will be down to the Remainers screwing it up or those damned foreigners.

That's the joy of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias around an internalised belief - there's never a point at which there is too much evidence that you are wrong, there's just another reason why actually you're right.

Puja

Yep, that's the Leavers line now.

May will become the focal point for all blame. The impossibility of coming to a sensible conclusion after such a ludicrous referendum will not be seen to be a problem.

The myth that a stronger leader would have got a better deal is too persuasive.

Sandydragon wrote:May will become the focal point for all blame. The impossibility of coming to a sensible conclusion after such a ludicrous referendum will not be seen to be a problem.

The myth that a stronger leader would have got a better deal is too persuasive.

She's dealt with it terribly. She should have appointed Boris or JRM as Brexit minister and then had an excuse to sack them and shit all over them when they completely failed.

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:May will become the focal point for all blame. The impossibility of coming to a sensible conclusion after such a ludicrous referendum will not be seen to be a problem.

The myth that a stronger leader would have got a better deal is too persuasive.

She's dealt with it terribly. She should have appointed Boris or JRM as Brexit minister and then had an excuse to sack them and shit all over them when they completely failed.

Whatever this leaves the question that on the off chance brexit doesn't fix all things what daft thing will be voted for next? How close to getting our own Trump are we, and worse how close to our own Hitler?

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:May will become the focal point for all blame. The impossibility of coming to a sensible conclusion after such a ludicrous referendum will not be seen to be a problem.

The myth that a stronger leader would have got a better deal is too persuasive.

She's dealt with it terribly. She should have appointed Boris or JRM as Brexit minister and then had an excuse to sack them and shit all over them when they completely failed.

Why would it completely fail because of the figure head? David Davis was moving towards Canada+ and the EU had said Canada+ was on the table. That said, everybody and anybody was doomed to failure as parliament is split into numerous minority factions, regardless of whoever was driving it.
I agree that she should’ve left it to DExEU so govt could’ve concentrated more on domestic agenda. It’s what Cameron should’ve done. Gove would’ve been the perfect appointment.

Mellsblue wrote:

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:May will become the focal point for all blame. The impossibility of coming to a sensible conclusion after such a ludicrous referendum will not be seen to be a problem.

The myth that a stronger leader would have got a better deal is too persuasive.

She's dealt with it terribly. She should have appointed Boris or JRM as Brexit minister and then had an excuse to sack them and shit all over them when they completely failed.

Why would it completely fail because of the figure head? David Davis was moving towards Canada+ and the EU had said Canada+ was on the table. That said, everybody and anybody was doomed to failure as parliament is split into numerous minority factions, regardless of whoever was driving it.
I agree that she should’ve left it to DExEU so govt could’ve concentrated more on domestic agenda. It’s what Cameron should’ve done. Gove would’ve been the perfect appointment.

Sorry, that wasn't 100% clear of me...

It's doomed to failure no matter who is there, so put an enemy there and blame the failure on him.

Canada+ remains a worrying option. We'd really be hoping the EU after all this isn't worried about other nations leaving or nobody really knows the outcome on our businesses, GFA, or future trade deals

Digby wrote:

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:May will become the focal point for all blame. The impossibility of coming to a sensible conclusion after such a ludicrous referendum will not be seen to be a problem.

The myth that a stronger leader would have got a better deal is too persuasive.

She's dealt with it terribly. She should have appointed Boris or JRM as Brexit minister and then had an excuse to sack them and shit all over them when they completely failed.

Whatever this leaves the question that on the off chance brexit doesn't fix all things what daft thing will be voted for next? How close to getting our own Trump are we, and worse how close to our own Hitler?

Not a large enough distance away. We're not quite at the stage where Lammy's comparison was correct, but personality politics, the dumbing down of the electorate, an increasing distrust of experts, combined with a febrile idea that we as a nation deserve better than we get and are very hard done by, could lead to a very nasty demagogue if we aren't careful.

Puja

Stom wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Stom wrote:
She's dealt with it terribly. She should have appointed Boris or JRM as Brexit minister and then had an excuse to sack them and shit all over them when they completely failed.

Why would it completely fail because of the figure head? David Davis was moving towards Canada+ and the EU had said Canada+ was on the table. That said, everybody and anybody was doomed to failure as parliament is split into numerous minority factions, regardless of whoever was driving it.
I agree that she should’ve left it to DExEU so govt could’ve concentrated more on domestic agenda. It’s what Cameron should’ve done. Gove would’ve been the perfect appointment.

Sorry, that wasn't 100% clear of me...

It's doomed to failure no matter who is there, so put an enemy there and blame the failure on him.

Ah, ok. In that case, yep!! Tbh, at present, I can’t think of anyone who isn’t coping some blame. It’s the political equivalent of the start of Saving Private Ryan.

Mellsblue wrote:

So, Change stealing from the Lib Dems, Brexit stealing from the Tories and UKIP, and very few opinions actually changing on anything. Good to know.

Puja

The failure of the Lib Dem’s to capitalise on the whole Brexit debate is still a slight mystery. They should be a natural home for remainders.

Yep, for all the marches and petition signing, it’s not really working at the ballot box (assuming you believe the polls). CUK refusing to work with the Greens and Lib Dems is both shooting themselves in the foot (along with a very questionable/absent vetting procedure for candidates) and showing that despite saying politics is broken they’re not willing to try and fix it.
Remainers hopes lie with Labour. Which is like leaving your children with the weird, unruly family at the end of the street, who live in the now dilapidated but once nice house they inherited from their estranged second cousin, whilst nipping out to the vegan, plastic free wine tasting evening at the local delicatessen.