England goals for 2017/18 season

[Mikey Brown]

Okay, maybe a bit harsh, but I have doubts about his vision and ability to vary his game. This may have just been shown up recently by some incredibly poor support play when he has made linebreaks. I guess we're not used to a 12 that threatens the line.

I suppose I was, probably unfairly, bundling his age in with his limitations as a long-term option.

The bolded part may have been accurate for the Lions but I don't think that's representative of England.

TBH, we haven't seen enough of him at 12 to make a particularly informed judgement, but it's not really true of fair to criticise England players for not supporting linebreaks from Te'o when he hasn't really been used in that role.

Well I can include the lack of vision when he makes a linebreak for the Lions whether there were England players there or not. It's something I can see Jones paying a lot more attention to, but as has been noted his introduction at 12 does require a very different approach. It happens I think that would massively suit Ford and Joseph in particular though.

[Scrumhead]

I think we have to find an extra 10% at least in average performance level but, perhaps more importantly, we need to find how to win the vital games. We are more or less at the point where personnel changes are too late. It is all about Eddie building the winning mentality. I hope Eddie will forget his AI rest idea.

Surely there can't be any serious doubt over whether Eddie has instilled a 'winning mentality'. The results speak for themselves.

I do agree that the performance level hasn't always been at the level it needs to be and at times but we've found ways to get out of jail and win tight games (Wales and France in the 6N spring to mind). I'm convinced we would not have won those games under Lancaster.

Personnel wise, I don't expect massive changes at all. Barring injury, I think 11 of the starting XV is pretty much nailed down and with the exception of the players competing for the 7 shirt, the 4 spots up for debate would likely be between existing EPS members i.e. the back three could conceivably include any of Brown, Daly, May, Nowell or Watson.

I think it would take a lot for an as yet uncapped player to really force their way in to the mix this season. Ben Curry or Joe Marchant maybe?

I think we need a trade up in every unit of the team tbh, bar possibly lock- though some 'solutions' are already there.

Every unit? Really?

The four variables for me are 2, 7, 11 (or 14) and 15.

My changes would be George for Hartley, A N Other for Haskell and shifting Watson to fullback over Brown with Daly and Nowell at 11 and 14. Tweaks rather than surgery.

[Stom]

I think we have to find an extra 10% at least in average performance level but, perhaps more importantly, we need to find how to win the vital games. We are more or less at the point where personnel changes are too late. It is all about Eddie building the winning mentality. I hope Eddie will forget his AI rest idea.

Surely there can't be any serious doubt over whether Eddie has instilled a 'winning mentality'. The results speak for themselves.

I do agree that the performance level hasn't always been at the level it needs to be and at times but we've found ways to get out of jail and win tight games (Wales and France in the 6N spring to mind). I'm convinced we would not have won those games under Lancaster.

Personnel wise, I don't expect massive changes at all. Barring injury, I think 11 of the starting XV is pretty much nailed down and with the exception of the players competing for the 7 shirt, the 4 spots up for debate would likely be between existing EPS members i.e. the back three could conceivably include any of Brown, Daly, May, Nowell or Watson.

I think it would take a lot for an as yet uncapped player to really force their way in to the mix this season. Ben Curry or Joe Marchant maybe?

I think we need a trade up in every unit of the team tbh, bar possibly lock- though some 'solutions' are already there.

Those solutions are mightily close in some cases, though. Swap Hartley for George and hope Cole's upturn in form continues, and we're sorted in the front row. Back 3 needs a combination of players, but they're all close to the team already. Otherwise, yeah. 7, 9, 12 all need work. 7 could be there with a season's play, 9 we're not going to see a solution. 12...meh.

[bitts]

additional objectives:

- sort out the 15 shirt. Brown goes to japan. But as 1st choice?! and post-japan, what then? not a current glut of options. watson seems the obvious one to start bedding in. woodward or tom marshall might be a bit far-fetched

- work out what to do with daly. fats becoming a guy you have ot have in the side. but is he really best used on the wing? what if May plays to his best? or earle comes steaming through? Does JJ really have ownership of the 13 shirt, or should daly be eyeing that, with Marchant pushing JJ?

- work out how 4 goes into 3 from itoje, kruis, lawes & launchbury when all are firing. hard to leave any out. still fancy the idea of bedding lawes or itoje in at 6

- decide if slade has an england future, and where from 10-13.

- work out what to do with te'o - who's obviously got something about him. is he a 12 or 13? if 12, he'll never be a starter. if 13, he's a totally different style to every other player.

- decide if england careers are over before they started for robson, tompkins etc.

Think he's got a pretty good idea of what to do with Teo, and Manu if he comes back. Basically they will start of he decides he needs more penetration in the midfield from the beginning, or will bench of he decides it's better off to have them as finishers. I'm happy with how things are shaping up in the midfield in this sense.

Think Daly will always be in the 23. Would love to have him and Watson starting at 15 regularly for thier clubs, but that's unlikely.

As has been said. Slade needs to nail down a position at Exceter first. Ideally 10.

To be honest the big thing will be moulding some very good players into players who could be considered the best in the world in that position. We've got a few who could put their hand up and hopefully they will over the next year.

[Banquo]

Surely there can't be any serious doubt over whether Eddie has instilled a 'winning mentality'. The results speak for themselves.

I do agree that the performance level hasn't always been at the level it needs to be and at times but we've found ways to get out of jail and win tight games (Wales and France in the 6N spring to mind). I'm convinced we would not have won those games under Lancaster.

Personnel wise, I don't expect massive changes at all. Barring injury, I think 11 of the starting XV is pretty much nailed down and with the exception of the players competing for the 7 shirt, the 4 spots up for debate would likely be between existing EPS members i.e. the back three could conceivably include any of Brown, Daly, May, Nowell or Watson.

I think it would take a lot for an as yet uncapped player to really force their way in to the mix this season. Ben Curry or Joe Marchant maybe?

I think we need a trade up in every unit of the team tbh, bar possibly lock- though some 'solutions' are already there.

Every unit? Really?

The four variables for me are 2, 7, 11 (or 14) and 15.

My changes would be George for Hartley, A N Other for Haskell and shifting Watson to fullback over Brown with Daly and Nowell at 11 and 14. Tweaks rather than surgery.

So that's three units out of 6 (and I agree); I think we need a better 9 and a 12- do you disagree (if Youngs and Farrell are the answers, I think we are asking the wrong question)? So that's 5 of 6 to me- I said every unit bar lock.

[Mikey Brown]

additional objectives:

- sort out the 15 shirt. Brown goes to japan. But as 1st choice?! and post-japan, what then? not a current glut of options. watson seems the obvious one to start bedding in. woodward or tom marshall might be a bit far-fetched

- work out what to do with daly. fats becoming a guy you have ot have in the side. but is he really best used on the wing? what if May plays to his best? or earle comes steaming through? Does JJ really have ownership of the 13 shirt, or should daly be eyeing that, with Marchant pushing JJ?

- work out how 4 goes into 3 from itoje, kruis, lawes & launchbury when all are firing. hard to leave any out. still fancy the idea of bedding lawes or itoje in at 6

- decide if slade has an england future, and where from 10-13.

- work out what to do with te'o - who's obviously got something about him. is he a 12 or 13? if 12, he'll never be a starter. if 13, he's a totally different style to every other player.

- decide if england careers are over before they started for robson, tompkins etc.

Think he's got a pretty good idea of what to do with Teo, and Manu if he comes back. Basically they will start of he decides he needs more penetration in the midfield from the beginning, or will bench of he decides it's better off to have them as finishers. I'm happy with how things are shaping up in the midfield in this sense.

Think Daly will always be in the 23. Would love to have him and Watson starting at 15 regularly for thier clubs, but that's unlikely.

As has been said. Slade needs to nail down a position at Exceter first. Ideally 10.

To be honest the big thing will be moulding some very good players into players who could be considered the best in the world in that position. We've got a few who could put their hand up and hopefully they will over the next year.

Lol. Where's WT?

[Scrumhead]

I think we need a trade up in every unit of the team tbh, bar possibly lock- though some 'solutions' are already there.

Every unit? Really?

The four variables for me are 2, 7, 11 (or 14) and 15.

My changes would be George for Hartley, A N Other for Haskell and shifting Watson to fullback over Brown with Daly and Nowell at 11 and 14. Tweaks rather than surgery.

So that's three units out of 6 (and I agree); I think we need a better 9 and a 12- do you disagree (if Youngs and Farrell are the answers, I think we are asking the wrong question)? So that's 5 of 6 to me- I said every unit bar lock.

I don't disagree in the longer term, but the purpose of the whole post was achievable aims for the 17/18 season.

9 and 12 need work, but there aren't obvious solutions right now and if I'm honest, I'm not sure either problem will be solved before 2019.

As I see it Youngs/Care and Farrell at 12 are sub-optimal but not catastrophically so.

[Scrumhead]

Surely there can't be any serious doubt over whether Eddie has instilled a 'winning mentality'. The results speak for themselves.

I do agree that the performance level hasn't always been at the level it needs to be and at times but we've found ways to get out of jail and win tight games (Wales and France in the 6N spring to mind). I'm convinced we would not have won those games under Lancaster.

Personnel wise, I don't expect massive changes at all. Barring injury, I think 11 of the starting XV is pretty much nailed down and with the exception of the players competing for the 7 shirt, the 4 spots up for debate would likely be between existing EPS members i.e. the back three could conceivably include any of Brown, Daly, May, Nowell or Watson.

I think it would take a lot for an as yet uncapped player to really force their way in to the mix this season. Ben Curry or Joe Marchant maybe?

I think we need a trade up in every unit of the team tbh, bar possibly lock- though some 'solutions' are already there.

Those solutions are mightily close in some cases, though. Swap Hartley for George and hope Cole's upturn in form continues, and we're sorted in the front row. Back 3 needs a combination of players, but they're all close to the team already. Otherwise, yeah. 7, 9, 12 all need work. 7 could be there with a season's play, 9 we're not going to see a solution. 12...meh.

Exactly ...

[Banquo]

Every unit? Really?

The four variables for me are 2, 7, 11 (or 14) and 15.

My changes would be George for Hartley, A N Other for Haskell and shifting Watson to fullback over Brown with Daly and Nowell at 11 and 14. Tweaks rather than surgery.

So that's three units out of 6 (and I agree); I think we need a better 9 and a 12- do you disagree (if Youngs and Farrell are the answers, I think we are asking the wrong question)? So that's 5 of 6 to me- I said every unit bar lock.

I don't disagree in the longer term, but the purpose of the whole post was achievable aims for the 17/18 season.

9 and 12 need work, but there aren't obvious solutions right now and if I'm honest, I'm not sure either problem will be solved before 2019.

As I see it Youngs/Care and Farrell at 12 are sub-optimal but not catastrophically so.

Sorry if I 'disrupted' your thread, but tbh we need to upgrade short term- I didn't say there were solutions that fit neatly, but still think we need to explore upgrade potential. So my point stands, 5 of 6 need an upgrade asap. I actually think (say) Robson would be an upgrade, and so would Teo or Manu at 12, but that would be a change in style.

[skidger]

If Teo is very limited then does this make Farrell a very,very,very limited 12?

[skidger]

Apart from Argentina Brown has looked pretty dreadful since about 2014/5 and should be under pressure. I would like an upgrade at 12 and 15 and Hartley moved along. Also look at 9 options that if given a run are better than Youngs and Care.

[skidger]

And for world peace.

[Mikey Brown]

If Teo is very limited then does this make Farrell a very,very,very limited 12?

Well, kind of. I feel like I'm being misrepresented here.

Farrell's main limitation is consistency. He certainly has a wider skill set than Teo but he just doesn't seem to be reliable in any facet, except goalkicking, which is weird given his reputation in the media.

He's not that fast or powerful, but isn't a terrible runner. He can tackle, he can pass, he can kick, but you've generally no idea of the quality you'll get in any of those areas from moment to moment.

My point was that Teo doesn't have too much to offer if his plan A gets shut down, but I fully accept that even having an opposition team need to do that will leave a bit more room for others to work.

[Puja]

So that's three units out of 6 (and I agree); I think we need a better 9 and a 12- do you disagree (if Youngs and Farrell are the answers, I think we are asking the wrong question)? So that's 5 of 6 to me- I said every unit bar lock.

I don't disagree in the longer term, but the purpose of the whole post was achievable aims for the 17/18 season.

9 and 12 need work, but there aren't obvious solutions right now and if I'm honest, I'm not sure either problem will be solved before 2019.

As I see it Youngs/Care and Farrell at 12 are sub-optimal but not catastrophically so.

Sorry if I 'disrupted' your thread, but tbh we need to upgrade short term- I didn't say there were solutions that fit neatly, but still think we need to explore upgrade potential. So my point stands, 5 of 6 need an upgrade asap. I actually think (say) Robson would be an upgrade, and so would Teo or Manu at 12, but that would be a change in style.

The problem is that the alternatives are seen through rose-tinted glasses due to the feeling that SomethingMustChange and some of the proposed changes wouldn't actually be upgrades. Robson is not as good a player as Youngs - he's far more inconsistent, both in passing and kicking. Different != Better.

And on the 12 issue - Manu and Te'o may bring greater penetration in of themselves, but they wouldn't've made the pass for Daly in Cardiff, or opened the space for Joseph in Scotland. Farrell's got problems and he was rubbish in the last Lions test, but I think some people on here see him as utterly without merit, when he is in fact a pretty good international 12.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

So that's three units out of 6 (and I agree); I think we need a better 9 and a 12- do you disagree (if Youngs and Farrell are the answers, I think we are asking the wrong question)? So that's 5 of 6 to me- I said every unit bar lock.

I don't disagree in the longer term, but the purpose of the whole post was achievable aims for the 17/18 season.

9 and 12 need work, but there aren't obvious solutions right now and if I'm honest, I'm not sure either problem will be solved before 2019.

As I see it Youngs/Care and Farrell at 12 are sub-optimal but not catastrophically so.

Sorry if I 'disrupted' your thread, but tbh we need to upgrade short term- I didn't say there were solutions that fit neatly, but still think we need to explore upgrade potential. So my point stands, 5 of 6 need an upgrade asap. I actually think (say) Robson would be an upgrade, and so would Teo or Manu at 12, but that would be a change in style.

I'm not disagreeing with your point, I'm questioning the timescale/urgency.

If better/more obvious solutions were available at 9 and 12, I'd back Eddie to find them. If it's sooner rather than later then that's great.

I was as much in favour of Robson being given a shot as anyone after his first season at Wasps, last season he was average at the exact point when he needed to show how good he can be. I still feel it was a mistake not giving him a shot in Argentina, but I can also understand why Eddie may have been unconvinced.

Te'o is a tactical option rather than a solution IMO. As you say, starting him would require a change in style and for that reason, I think it's more likely he'll stay as a 'finisher'. Tuilagi is a different case. IF he can recapture his best form, he's in the side. However, I suspect JJ would be the fall guy and we'd still see Farrell at 12.

[Scrumhead]

To Puja's point, Farrell may not be to everyone's taste, but both Eddie Jones and Warren Gatland picked him at 12.

Gatland had plenty of other options at 12 and Sexton is a good enough kicker that Farrell wasn't needed solely for the boot.

Whether you rate Gatland or not, the fact is, he basically endorsed Eddie's selection despite it not being his default style.

[skidger]

I don't disagree in the longer term, but the purpose of the whole post was achievable aims for the 17/18 season.

9 and 12 need work, but there aren't obvious solutions right now and if I'm honest, I'm not sure either problem will be solved before 2019.

As I see it Youngs/Care and Farrell at 12 are sub-optimal but not catastrophically so.

Sorry if I 'disrupted' your thread, but tbh we need to upgrade short term- I didn't say there were solutions that fit neatly, but still think we need to explore upgrade potential. So my point stands, 5 of 6 need an upgrade asap. I actually think (say) Robson would be an upgrade, and so would Teo or Manu at 12, but that would be a change in style.

The problem is that the alternatives are seen through rose-tinted glasses due to the feeling that SomethingMustChange and some of the proposed changes wouldn't actually be upgrades. Robson is not as good a player as Youngs - he's far more inconsistent, both in passing and kicking. Different != Better.

And on the 12 issue - Manu and Te'o may bring greater penetration in of themselves, but they wouldn't've made the pass for Daly in Cardiff, or opened the space for Joseph in Scotland. Farrell's got problems and he was rubbish in the last Lions test, but I think some people on here see him as utterly without merit, when he is in fact a pretty good international 12.

Puja

What a ridiculous comment. You know for certain that Manu and Teo could not make the pass or make the space? A pretty good international 12? I am ordering some bunting right now to celebrate that England have a pretty good 12. His kicking is pretty good but how would you describe his kicking from hand? His carrying threat? His tackling? His off-loading game? His passing game in general? I am not sure Teo is the answer at 12 but Farrell certainly is not. If he did not kick goals and was picked as a 12 and for that alone he would often be ridiculed for England. He has had plenty of games like the 3rd Lions test for England.

[skidger]

And one last moan. The mention of his pass against Wales as though it was magical. He is an elite England player. The best of the best who has been playing rugby through all the grades for years. I would be alarmed if he could not make the pass but am slightly more alarmed it is deemed worthy of comment or praise.

[Puja]

Sorry if I 'disrupted' your thread, but tbh we need to upgrade short term- I didn't say there were solutions that fit neatly, but still think we need to explore upgrade potential. So my point stands, 5 of 6 need an upgrade asap. I actually think (say) Robson would be an upgrade, and so would Teo or Manu at 12, but that would be a change in style.

The problem is that the alternatives are seen through rose-tinted glasses due to the feeling that SomethingMustChange and some of the proposed changes wouldn't actually be upgrades. Robson is not as good a player as Youngs - he's far more inconsistent, both in passing and kicking. Different != Better.

And on the 12 issue - Manu and Te'o may bring greater penetration in of themselves, but they wouldn't've made the pass for Daly in Cardiff, or opened the space for Joseph in Scotland. Farrell's got problems and he was rubbish in the last Lions test, but I think some people on here see him as utterly without merit, when he is in fact a pretty good international 12.

Puja

What a ridiculous comment. You know for certain that Manu and Teo could not make the pass or make the space? A pretty good international 12? I am ordering some bunting right now to celebrate that England have a pretty good 12. His kicking is pretty good but how would you describe his kicking from hand? His carrying threat? His tackling? His off-loading game? His passing game in general? I am not sure Teo is the answer at 12 but Farrell certainly is not. If he did not kick goals and was picked as a 12 and for that alone he would often be ridiculed for England. He has had plenty of games like the 3rd Lions test for England.

Having watched Te'o for Worcester and remembering what Manu was like when last he actually played a game of rugby, I can tell you that neither of them could have made the pass for Daly.

I'm not saying "pretty good 12" is the standard that we should be aiming for; I'm saying that it's the standard we've got. Should one of Francis, Lozowski, Slade, Mallinder, etc step up next season, I will go halves with you on the bunting order. Right now, we're playing the best option that we have and demanding change just because you don't like the incumbent and can see his many flaws reminds me of the Borthwick era where people were championing the likes of Peter Short because there were so many things wrong with Borthwick.

Puja

[Puja]

And one last moan. The mention of his pass against Wales as though it was magical. He is an elite England player. The best of the best who has been playing rugby through all the grades for years. I would be alarmed if he could not make the pass but am slightly more alarmed it is deemed worthy of comment or praise.

Come on! It was a 20m pass, delivered on the run, to the exact position where Daly could take it without ever breaking stride. Yes, in an ideal world, we should expect our 12s to be able to make that pass, but a lot of them couldn't, including both Manu and Te'o.



Puja

[Scrumhead]

I'm with Puja on this. Farrell isn't a favourite of mine, but he is the best option we have right now and let's not pretend he's $hit.

Eddie is no mug and rates him as one of our best players. Eddie is a better judge than anyone on this board.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm with Puja on this. Farrell isn't a favourite of mine, but he is the best option we have right now and let's not pretend he's $hit.

Eddie is no mug and rates him as one of our best players. Eddie is a better judge than anyone on this board.

Can we just rule out this argument from now on? We may as well close the board down if that line of thinking is accepted.

[Beasties]

I was trying to remember the pass but now know exactly which one thanks to the vid. I'm shocked you found it worthy of comment Puja. I do remember being surprised however that Farrell had managed to deliver it correctly. I actually held my breath when I saw who it was that was going to be responsible for passing it to Daly. 20m's pushing it a bit.

I was also a bit puzzled by your comment about Robson's passing being inconsistent compared to Youngs. Granted he did fade a bit last season but I never thought of his actual passing as being a cause for concern.

[Which Tyler]

FTR, count me in with Puja.
I dislike many, many things about Fazlet, but he has improved to the point of competent international player at both FH and IC, yes I'd like better, by I'm not going to sulk and refuse to pick our best option because he's not as good as I'd like.

Ideally Exeter stop playing silly buggers, and Slade gets a full season at FH with Devoto outside of him, whilst Te'o continues to improve with Wuss, and Manu plays 20+ matches this season and is still standing come May. Until that happens though, Faz is the best we've got.

[Raggs]

I wish eastmond had been given more of a chance.