RugbyRebels

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:There is pretty much no reason to carry on with Brexit now. The compromise we are moving towards makes virtually nobody happy. Any chance of taking advantage of the things Puja outlined, and a handful of others, will disappear. It’s now a plan that only pleases racists. Kudos everyone. A job really well done.
In essence, the vast majority of MPs have conspired to not get what the want, put the country in a worse position whilst keeping the racists happy. The compromise is also virtually identical to Lab’s policy and nowhere near the Cons policy. So, we get the brilliant result that the party who won the election and formed a govt lose out to the party that came second*. Couple this with blatant attempts to overturn the referendum and democracy must be turning in its grave**. The joys of MPs demanding compromise, an extreme version of Brexit or trying to overturn the ref from the outset - the racists win and everyone else loses.

*maybe those Corbyn supporters who acted like Lab won the GE knew more than we gave them credit for.

**poll results out today show that most people in the UK now favour a strong leader who is willing to break rules and subvert parliament.

FFS.

do you mean WA plus Customs Union?

I do.

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote: do you mean WA plus Customs Union?

I do.

its utterly ridiculous. Its 'compromise' for the sake of it, and extremely dishonest.

Banquo wrote:we are now on page 101

Digby wrote:So far the main and perhaps only actual advantage to Brexit is a return to having a blue passport, and we'll ignore we could have done that whilst remaining in the EU.

On balance nobody has identified any positives from Brexit, there are some fantasies but to equate fantasy with reality isn't actually an advantage

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:we are now on page 101

Which is still nowhere near the board’s outrage about Trump......

Banquo wrote:we are now on page 101

Puja wrote:

Lizard wrote:I see Twitter is now full of Brexiteers complaining that the EU is interfering in a “British decision” by contemplating a further extension on Article 50.

What this whole fiasco has underlined to me is that British exceptionalism is far deeper ingrained than I thought. Brits have seemed flabbergasted that the Irish, the rest of the former Empire, and Europe won’t simply do as Britain wants, and that its somehow improper for them to put their own national and supranational interests ahead of a middle-sized nation just off the coast of Europe.

Let me have a couple more glasses of wine and if you’re lucky I’ll share my theories on the continuum between British establishment classism and racism, not to mention the utter failure of England (and I mean England) to come to terms with decolonisation and its historical crimes against humanity in the way that, say, Germany has.

All the alternative Brexit plans scream our exceptionalism - Norway+, Canada+, Customs Union+. All of them wih that little plus to let you know that we'll have what these other guys have had except, you know, better. Because you'll do something better for us than you did for them, because we're us, right?

Puja

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:So far the main and perhaps only actual advantage to Brexit is a return to having a blue passport, and we'll ignore we could have done that whilst remaining in the EU.

On balance nobody has identified any positives from Brexit, there are some fantasies but to equate fantasy with reality isn't actually an advantage

There are potential positives, but on the marginal side of being of use. And certainly not paying back after years and years of uncertainty and transition costs. As the mighty JRM said, it might take 50 years....

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:So far the main and perhaps only actual advantage to Brexit is a return to having a blue passport, and we'll ignore we could have done that whilst remaining in the EU.

On balance nobody has identified any positives from Brexit, there are some fantasies but to equate fantasy with reality isn't actually an advantage

There are potential positives, but on the marginal side of being of use. And certainly not paying back after years and years of uncertainty and transition costs. As the mighty JRM said, it might take 50 years....

What are the potential positives? And I'm after positives on balance, so huge growth in rest of the world trade that isn't offset by damage to domestic and European trade doesn’t count.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: There are potential positives, but on the marginal side of being of use. And certainly not paying back after years and years of uncertainty and transition costs. As the mighty JRM said, it might take 50 years....

What are the potential positives? And I'm after positives on balance, so huge growth in rest of the world trade that isn't offset by damage to domestic and European trade doesn’t count.

Ah ok, nice caveat on original comment. As I said maybe marginal, and only potential and after many years. Both would be guessing in any case- and yes its obviously trade, with optimal tariffs and lower NTB's.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
What are the potential positives? And I'm after positives on balance, so huge growth in rest of the world trade that isn't offset by damage to domestic and European trade doesn’t count.

Ah ok, nice caveat on original comment. As I said maybe marginal, and only potential and after many years. Both would be guessing in any case- and yes its obviously trade, with optimal tariffs and lower NTB's.

But how can it be a benefit when the US will bend us over backwards with de-regulation in order to agree to a trade deal...

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote: Ah ok, nice caveat on original comment. As I said maybe marginal, and only potential and after many years. Both would be guessing in any case- and yes its obviously trade, with optimal tariffs and lower NTB's.

But how can it be a benefit when the US will bend us over backwards with de-regulation in order to agree to a trade deal...

Maybe maybe not. Potential being the key and ignored word. The benefits would depend on the skill of the negotiators (oops) and net benefits of what happens to the EU over the next 'n' years.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: There are potential positives, but on the marginal side of being of use. And certainly not paying back after years and years of uncertainty and transition costs. As the mighty JRM said, it might take 50 years....

What are the potential positives? And I'm after positives on balance, so huge growth in rest of the world trade that isn't offset by damage to domestic and European trade doesn’t count.

Ah ok, nice caveat on original comment. As I said maybe marginal, and only potential and after many years. Both would be guessing in any case- and yes its obviously trade, with optimal tariffs and lower NTB's.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
What are the potential positives? And I'm after positives on balance, so huge growth in rest of the world trade that isn't offset by damage to domestic and European trade doesn’t count.

Ah ok, nice caveat on original comment. As I said maybe marginal, and only potential and after many years. Both would be guessing in any case- and yes its obviously trade, with optimal tariffs and lower NTB's.

It wasn’t meant as a caveat, I like free movement in Europe on a personal level but I've any number of issues with the EU, for me it has to be about how it impacts the wider economy (and not just me or my firm)

morepork wrote:The US is under jury rig at the moment and hasn't exactly dazzled on the negotiation front of late.

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:The US is under jury rig at the moment and hasn't exactly dazzled on the negotiation front of late.

I stand by my comment that they could probably crush us on the negotiation front. Two bald men fighting over a comb, but I think we're clearly the better incompetents.

Read this today and thought it a well-written article from a Leave-voter's perspective: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... ink-again/

Puja

morepork wrote:

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:The US is under jury rig at the moment and hasn't exactly dazzled on the negotiation front of late.

I stand by my comment that they could probably crush us on the negotiation front. Two bald men fighting over a comb, but I think we're clearly the better incompetents.

Read this today and thought it a well-written article from a Leave-voter's perspective: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... ink-again/

Puja

Departments of State, Agriculture, Labour, etc etc etc are all acutely understaffed. The current US ambassador to GB is a man named Woody that owns a football team and is perpetually involved in tax fraud. What are they going to do? Send Ivanka to seal the deal?You appeal to Cheeto and he will do as you want.

gransoporro wrote:The only scenario I see where the UK benefits from Brexit, regarding trade, is if the EU goes south hard no later than 3, maybe 4 years from now.

How likely is it? So far I would say very unlikely.

Hoping that Trump turns into Santa and deliver a positive trade deal? Even less likely.

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:The US is under jury rig at the moment and hasn't exactly dazzled on the negotiation front of late.

I stand by my comment that they could probably crush us on the negotiation front. Two bald men fighting over a comb, but I think we're clearly the better incompetents.

Read this today and thought it a well-written article from a Leave-voter's perspective: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... ink-again/

Puja

Lizard wrote:

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:The US is under jury rig at the moment and hasn't exactly dazzled on the negotiation front of late.

I stand by my comment that they could probably crush us on the negotiation front. Two bald men fighting over a comb, but I think we're clearly the better incompetents.

Read this today and thought it a well-written article from a Leave-voter's perspective: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... ink-again/

Puja

I came across that yesterday. Have their been any similar articles by remain voters that have changed their mind?

Puja wrote:

Lizard wrote:

Puja wrote:
I stand by my comment that they could probably crush us on the negotiation front. Two bald men fighting over a comb, but I think we're clearly the better incompetents.

Read this today and thought it a well-written article from a Leave-voter's perspective: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... ink-again/

Puja

I came across that yesterday. Have their been any similar articles by remain voters that have changed their mind?

I'd be surprised. Leave aren't exactly running a tremendous advertisement for their side right now.

Mind, the polls are still running 52:48 (but in the opposite direction) so it's not like there's been an earth-shattering shift the other way. I think it's become an identity thing now - people are defining themselves by their vote, which makes changing their mind much more unlikely. You're not just changing a vote, but changing an identity, joining a different camp, becoming one of "them". And that means contradictory facts are much more likely to get bounced away with confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance - it's easier to decide the facts are wrong than to decide you are.

Puja