COVID19

[Sandydragon]

We voted them in, and they didn't exactly look a competent bunch when we did so. So pretty much we've done it to ourselves

And that's what really hurts...

it wears me out

And yet it could have been worse.

I don't for one second think Corbyn and his team would have handled this any better. Here we are taking the piss out of the Americans for their binary choice, but ours wasn't that much different (arguably theirs is a better one).

[Puja]

And that's what really hurts...

it wears me out

And yet it could have been worse.

I don't for one second think Corbyn and his team would have handled this any better. Here we are taking the piss out of the Americans for their binary choice, but ours wasn't that much different (arguably theirs is a better one).

You think Corbyn would've pursued herd immunity, first openly then through the current miasma of government "guidance"?

Puja

[Digby]

Russia denied Covid was a thing in Russia, which is about as much as I've got to go on for how Corbyn would have responded, certainly there's little evidence he relies on evidence even if he might not be quite as crazy as his brother

[Sandydragon]

it wears me out

And yet it could have been worse.

I don't for one second think Corbyn and his team would have handled this any better. Here we are taking the piss out of the Americans for their binary choice, but ours wasn't that much different (arguably theirs is a better one).

You think Corbyn would've pursued herd immunity, first openly then through the current miasma of government "guidance"?

Puja

I doubt that he would have acted decisively and if the herd immunity option was proposed by SAGE then do you think he would have argued for an alternative? This is not an area that anyone would consider to be a strength of Corbyn.

[Son of Mathonwy]

New ONS numbers up to 26 Jun are out, so as of that date we have:
Positive test UK Covid-19 deaths: 43,414
All UK Covid-19 deaths (ONS number): 54,510
So the total UK number is 26% higher than the government number.

Excess deaths compared with 5 year average to 26 Jun: 64,615
which is 49% higher than the government number.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Russia denied Covid was a thing in Russia, which is about as much as I've got to go on for how Corbyn would have responded, certainly there's little evidence he relies on evidence even if he might not be quite as crazy as his brother

Coz Corbyn is exactly the same kind of guy as Putin? Not seeing much justification for this one.

Instead, how about Corbyn being less in love with business and capitalism than Boris ... reasonable assumption?
This means he would have probably worried less about impacting business and hence have:
1) Put border controls in place at the outset,
2) Locked down earlier.

Also, he would have naturally have turned to state resources before the private sector, so would probably have:
3) beefed up NHS PPE and ventilator procurement rather than bringing in private sector firms with no experience of such things,
4) utilised local health resources from the start, building contact tracing up from this, rather than using Serco (which has no experience etc etc).

5) Obviously there would only have been a few months since the election, but we can reasonably think that Corbyn would have increased spending on the NHS in that time. So NHS resources would have been a little better by March,
6) Corbyn isn't the world-class bullshitter that Johnson is, so we might have been lied to a little less (whatever value you place on this).
7) We can reasonably think that Brexit would have been put to one side and an extension to article 50 agreed while Covid-19 is the big deal, hence no time wasted on negotiation or business preparation for Brexit.

[Digby]

Corbyn did his best to side with Russia after their attack on Salisbury, being critical of us and praising what he weirdly thinks Russia (still) represents is on message for the antiquated idiot

[Mellsblue]

Russia denied Covid was a thing in Russia, which is about as much as I've got to go on for how Corbyn would have responded, certainly there's little evidence he relies on evidence even if he might not be quite as crazy as his brother

Coz Corbyn is exactly the same kind of guy as Putin? Not seeing much justification for this one.

Instead, how about Corbyn being less in love with business and capitalism than Boris ... reasonable assumption?
This means he would have probably worried less about impacting business and hence have:
1) Put border controls in place at the outset,
2) Locked down earlier.

Also, he would have naturally have turned to state resources before the private sector, so would probably have:
3) beefed up NHS PPE and ventilator procurement rather than bringing in private sector firms with no experience of such things,
4) utilised local health resources from the start, building contact tracing up from this, rather than using Serco (which has no experience etc etc).

5) Obviously there would only have been a few months since the election, but we can reasonably think that Corbyn would have increased spending on the NHS in that time. So NHS resources would have been a little better by March,
6) Corbyn isn't the world-class bullshitter that Johnson is, so we might have been lied to a little less (whatever value you place on this).
7) We can reasonably think that Brexit would have been put to one side and an extension to article 50 agreed while Covid-19 is the big deal, hence no time wasted on negotiation or business preparation for Brexit.

1) & 2) - Only if he’d ignored SAGE.
3) PPE procurement and distribution was saved by the private sector - who implemented a functioning ordering platform - and the army - who sorted logistics - after PHE f**ked it up.
4) I agree this would’ve been the better course of action but it was a PHE decision not a political one. So, unless Corbyn thought he knew better than PHE we’d have followed the same course. Private sector involvement is a red herring as they weren't brought in at the start of the crisis. Unless, that is, you mean following the successful German model of using the private sector to boost testing capacity, something PHE refused to do. Regardless, it’s probably moot as Prof Ferguson has said that, in retrospect, the U.K. was so heavily and widely seeded that track and trace would’ve been useless.
5) He’d have also ramped up borrowing which would’ve pushed us even further in to the debt black hole we’re already in.
6) Corbyn is a world class bullshitter. Just ask the Jewish community or anybody who has tried to unravel his public utterances on Brexit.
7) Corbyn probably wants Brexit more than Boris so I’m not so sure about that. Not that I think it’s particularly relevant.

None of this is to necessarily defend a govt that has made numerous mistakes, but to declare that a man who has shown little aptitude for leadership or the ability to put a coherent manifesto together let alone a coherent response to a pandemic would have nailed the response to COVID is quite a reach.

[Puja]

Corbyn did his best to side with Russia after their attack on Salisbury, being critical of us and praising what he weirdly thinks Russia (still) represents is on message for the antiquated idiot

That is a bizarre take and one which appears directly taken from the Mail or one of Murdoch's ilk. Corbyn advocated investigating and gathering evidence to go through The Hague, instead of just declaring Russia guilty by fiat, which is pretty consistent from him in anything to do with foreign affairs - Iraq, Syria, bin Laden. Whether you agree with him on that or not, it's a long distance from him being in lockstep with Putin on every issue.

Puja

[Digby]

Corbyn talked about giving the results of the investigation to Russia so we could get their honest take on the situation. Just one of the reasons Corbyn isn't fit to be an MP let alone the leader of a major party. And there's no doubt for me that Corbyn still hankers after the USSR and what it suggests to him as being the dream of socialism, why when (a) what that delivered for the people of the Soviet Union was so abysmally bad and (b) Russia isn't remotely close to anything Corbyn should in theory like even if he weirdly liked the USSR is a mystery. But Corbyn is weak on science, weak on facts and weak on national security issues

I don't think he's in lockstep with Putin, I think he'd like to be on what he imagines Putin to be even if that bears little resemblance to reality.

[morepork]

On a more positive note, Brazil’s thundercunt of a leader has contracted the pest

[Puja]

On a more positive note, Brazil’s thundercunt of a leader has contracted the pest

I was also cheerful about this, until a Brazilian acquaintance noted that it's almost certainly a lie. He's claimed a positive test so that he can shake it off within a week and prove to the Brazilian people that coronavirus isn't very serious like he said.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

On a more positive note, Brazil’s thundercunt of a leader has contracted the pest

I was also cheerful about this, until a Brazilian acquaintance noted that it's almost certainly a lie. He's claimed a positive test so that he can shake it off within a week and prove to the Brazilian people that coronavirus isn't very serious like he said.

Puja

Sadly, your acquaintance is probably correct to be cynical. Standby for pictures of him doing press-ups in a week or so once he has shaken off a minor cold like illness.

[Son of Mathonwy]

On a more positive note, Brazil’s thundercunt of a leader has contracted the pest

I was also cheerful about this, until a Brazilian acquaintance noted that it's almost certainly a lie. He's claimed a positive test so that he can shake it off within a week and prove to the Brazilian people that coronavirus isn't very serious like he said.

Puja

Sadly, your acquaintance is probably correct to be cynical. Standby for pictures of him doing press-ups in a week or so once he has shaken off a minor cold like illness.

Fit as a butcher's cão.

[Galfon]

Sadly, your acquaintance is probably correct to be cynical. Standby for pictures of him doing press-ups in a week or so once he has shaken off a minor cold like illness.

That and oddly behaving new cases/death curves. to show 'world beating' mortality rates.
It's important to remind the people how strong and superior they are, and what a superb health service the government are providing.This feelgood factor will surely stave off unrest and gain more votes, deservedly so. (not talking Brazil here).
Not sure who's winning the willy-waving atm.

[Son of Mathonwy]

And that's what really hurts...

it wears me out

And yet it could have been worse.

I don't for one second think Corbyn and his team would have handled this any better. Here we are taking the piss out of the Americans for their binary choice, but ours wasn't that much different (arguably theirs is a better one).

I appreciate this is totally hypothetical, but I'm not sure you appreciate how world-class bad Johnson has been here. Fair enough if he was being generally mediocre, who can say if Corbyn would be any better than mediocre? But the UK is leading the world in per capita excess deaths (at least as far as we know), and certainly in the top two or three in several measures, so it seems unreasonable to assume Corbyn would match Johnson's world-beating incompetence.

[Mellsblue]

it wears me out

And yet it could have been worse.

I don't for one second think Corbyn and his team would have handled this any better. Here we are taking the piss out of the Americans for their binary choice, but ours wasn't that much different (arguably theirs is a better one).

I appreciate this is totally hypothetical, but I'm not sure you appreciate how world-class bad Johnson has been here. Fair enough if he was being generally mediocre, who can say if Corbyn would be any better than mediocre? But the UK is leading the world in per capita excess deaths (at least as far as we know), and certainly in the top two or three in several measures, so it seems unreasonable to assume Corbyn would match Johnson's world-beating incompetence.

I do love this line that ‘if you don’t agree with me you really can’t understand/appreciate the issue’. It never fails to win the argument.
We have some of the world’s worst mortality rates vs both infection numbers and ICU numbers. We have the highest % of obese people in Europe and one of the oldest pops. Is that all Boris’s fault, too? (Other than the fact he adds to the obesity numbers). I know it suits your narrative to say it’s all Boris’s fault, and some of it is, but it just ain’t true.
I’m not sure you appreciate (I hope I phrased that correctly) how many of the mistakes are from decisions that have not been made by politicians, Boris or otherwise.
On what evidence do you think Corbyn would’ve led this country to salvation. He’s had one chance at being a leader and after being mostly useless and presiding over two lost elections (I know, I know, it was all the fault of the media/red Tories/duped working class), he’s back on the back benches doing what he does best.
If you were arguing that Starmer would be doing a better job then I’d be inclined to agree with you.

[Sandydragon]

And yet it could have been worse.

I don't for one second think Corbyn and his team would have handled this any better. Here we are taking the piss out of the Americans for their binary choice, but ours wasn't that much different (arguably theirs is a better one).

I appreciate this is totally hypothetical, but I'm not sure you appreciate how world-class bad Johnson has been here. Fair enough if he was being generally mediocre, who can say if Corbyn would be any better than mediocre? But the UK is leading the world in per capita excess deaths (at least as far as we know), and certainly in the top two or three in several measures, so it seems unreasonable to assume Corbyn would match Johnson's world-beating incompetence.

I do love this line that ‘if you don’t agree with me you really can’t understand/appreciate the issue’. It never fails to win the argument.
We have some of the world’s worst mortality rates vs both infection numbers and ICU numbers. We have the highest % of obese people in Europe and one of the oldest pops. Is that all Boris’s fault, too? (Other than the fact he adds to the obesity numbers). I know it suits your narrative to say it’s all Boris’s fault, and some of it is, but it just ain’t true.
I’m not sure you appreciate (I hope I phrased that correctly) how many of the mistakes are from decisions that have not been made by politicians, Boris or otherwise.
On what evidence do you think Corbyn would’ve led this country to salvation. He’s had one chance at being a leader and after being mostly useless and presiding over two lost elections (I know, I know, it was all the fault of the media/red Tories/duped working class), he’s back on the back benches doing what he does best.
If you were arguing that Starmer would be doing a better job then I’d be inclined to agree with you.

This.

Despite the politicians wanting to appear in charge and everyone believing the, the truth is that many decision have not been taken by politicians, including some of the bad ones. It looks like SAGE have been advising a course of action which wasn't one we should have followed and whilst I think that might have been influenced by Johnson, it takes a leader with strong convictions that they are right and understand the problem to overrule their advisors.

I expect that Corbyn et al would have dithered just as much and whilst I think a better leader would have helped us act more decisively, Corbyn doesn't fit that mould of someone who would act that decisively in a crisis. Nothing about his leadership of the Labour party makes me think he can act decisively.

[Stom]

Starmer would have been perfect for this.

[Sandydragon]

Starmer would have been perfect for this.

A definite improvement, no arguments there.

[Son of Mathonwy]

This.

Despite the politicians wanting to appear in charge and everyone believing the, the truth is that many decision have not been taken by politicians, including some of the bad ones. It looks like SAGE have been advising a course of action which wasn't one we should have followed and whilst I think that might have been influenced by Johnson, it takes a leader with strong convictions that they are right and understand the problem to overrule their advisors.

I expect that Corbyn et al would have dithered just as much and whilst I think a better leader would have helped us act more decisively, Corbyn doesn't fit that mould of someone who would act that decisively in a crisis. Nothing about his leadership of the Labour party makes me think he can act decisively.

Sure, no worries, just giving my view on this hypothetical.

[Sandydragon]

This.

Despite the politicians wanting to appear in charge and everyone believing the, the truth is that many decision have not been taken by politicians, including some of the bad ones. It looks like SAGE have been advising a course of action which wasn't one we should have followed and whilst I think that might have been influenced by Johnson, it takes a leader with strong convictions that they are right and understand the problem to overrule their advisors.

I expect that Corbyn et al would have dithered just as much and whilst I think a better leader would have helped us act more decisively, Corbyn doesn't fit that mould of someone who would act that decisively in a crisis. Nothing about his leadership of the Labour party makes me think he can act decisively.

Sure, no worries, just giving my view on this hypothetical.

Of course, its all hypothetical.I think McDonnell would have been effective (FWIW), whilst I disagree with him about most things, I don't regard him as being a foolish man, far from it.

[Mellsblue]

Of course, its all hypothetical.I think McDonnell would have been effective (FWIW), whilst I disagree with him about most things, I don't regard him as being a foolish man, far from it.

Yep. My biggest worry with Corbyn was that he’d hand the reins to McDonnell.

[Sandydragon]

Of course, its all hypothetical.I think McDonnell would have been effective (FWIW), whilst I disagree with him about most things, I don't regard him as being a foolish man, far from it.

Yep. My biggest worry with Corbyn was that he’d hand the reins to McDonnell.

Agreed. Although in a crisis where central grip was needed, I can think of worse people to have that control.

Such as Boris and Corbyn.

[Digby]

When did Cummings put Boris in charge?