Jackson & Olding

[OptimisticJock]

Im fairly consistent (I think) that I think any punishment should fit the crime, it should be sufficiently severe to communicate the need for change and sufficiently lenient to allow the opportunity for that change to happen. I was always taught that the art of a good bollocking is to make the person go away thinking, damn Ive been a fool, Ive let myself down there NOT that manager/authority is a bastard and resenting the way they have been treated. Its hard to do but balance is achievable.

I dont think that was done this time. There is a lot of division over this, public flame wars have served to polarise opinions and a lot of good messages about changes that are beneficial are being lost.
- Improvements to the way alleged rape victims are treated by the Gards/Police
- The way the PPS present cases for trial
- The protection of anonymity for both alleged victim and accused
- The way the media report cases,
- The way players conduct themselves on the pitch and off it
- The way social media is used to react to verdicts

These are all aspects that have come under the microscope amongst others and would be worth examining to see how they could be improved given the low reporting rate of rape cases and the poor conviction rate of cases that go to court. I think those things should be addressed by a wide spectrum of different bodies. Each has a part to play, because fixing one bit won't do it on its own.


Im only seeing evidence that this was done to sweep it away from the IRFUs doorstep because the sponsors got twitchy. Not without reason, what they did was an appalling way to treat that girl. But they were found Not Guilty and therefore presumed innocent of a rape. The text exchanges in their WhatsApp group were a private conversation and have only come to the publics attention due to the criminal case and the media scrum.

The IRFU are now using what happened in someones own home between consenting adults and a private conversation within a limited group to sack someone. (In PJ's case a single 10 word text) I think thats a dangerous precedent to set. Thats a very low bar. Put it this way, examine the contents of your own messages on this forum on occasion and are you squeaky clean? I know Im not and if it ever gets out that Im really Keith Wood my career as a pundit sat next to Sonia is over!

I do find it somewhat ironic that we should be taking our lessons in values from the Bank of Ireland now. But thats a whole can of worms.

The thing about values is they are only truly values if you live by them, otherwise they are at best high sounding platitudes and at worst a load of crap you use to present yourself in a favourable way but when tested you don't pass and resort to self serving behaviour

If you want to demonstrate that you have these core values then by all means ensure there is a punishment on top of time served already under suspension. However once thats done part of the recovery and reconciliation should involve some work in the community to repair the damage done. Some work with some of the groups protesting, some work visiting schools and rugby clubs, talking to youngsters, male and female about issues such as consent, respect and communication. I doubt those youngsters will pull back from asking the tough questions and maybe by doing such work PJ and SO would have become a lot wiser about how they are percieved, both before and after this whole sorry episode and the responsibility they have on teh their shoulders when they wear the White or Green jersey

The IRFU had all those sponsors saying we are concerned that the behaviour of these players will affect our brand, our values are being damaged so get rid of the problem rather than take an opportunity to each dip into their corporate funds and create a campaign of education, to be in the vanguard of a campaign to try to address the misogyny that is not simply a rugby problem. Thats where you find out if you live by your values when they get tested and you take positive and affirmative action to engage with the problem at root and branch level. Not simply prune a couple of problems and exile them. That isn't fixing much at all. Its barely a message of disapproval if you pay them off to do so without them seeking legal redress and the whole spotlight moves away.

I confess its an odd quote to use, but as Field Marshall Foch said of the Versaille Treaty in 1919, "This isnt peace, this is a twenty year Armistice" - well I don't think this fixes anything really, it prunes the problem for the sake of PR by making SO & PJ scapegoats for a much wider problem. It kicks it into the long grass rather than genuinely addressing the behaviour of young sports stars and other youngsters both male and female. As such I think its an opportunity missed.

This. A thousand times over.

See! Mellsblue believes Im really Keith Wood

Old, fat and bald? I don't think he's the only one.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

See! Mellsblue believes Im really Keith Wood

Old, fat and bald? I don't think he's the only one.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

And FTR if Ulster rugby were a bastion of sound moral values, transparency and honesty then they probably wouldn't have deliberately released this tidbit of news on a slow traffic Saturday morning after their match once all the journalists had buggered off.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

For the record? For what fecking record? Do you, perhaps, keep a personal record of outrageously sensible decisions that somehow fail to live down to your precious black and white world view?

Ulster Rugby is a business. The IRFU is a business. The decision to sever the contracts of these men was a business decision and so was the timing of the public announcement of that decision.

[BBD]

is it "you always hurt the ones you love?" by the Mills Brothers?

[SerjeantWildgoose]

I'd say that Two Little Boys by Rolf Harris strikes a closer harmony with the Ladism and sexual impropriety of this sorry incident, Cheggers.

[francoisfou]

Jackson could be moving to Clermont Ferrand.

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/top-14/2 ... tory.shtml

[SerjeantWildgoose]

So the scenario where PJ returns to Ravenhill wearing the blue and yellow of ASM in next season's Challenge Cup isn't out of the question?

[francoisfou]

So the scenario where PJ returns to Ravenhill wearing the blue and yellow of ASM in next season's Challenge Cup isn't out of the question?

Are you saying, Serj, that Ulster won't qualify for the Champions' Cup?
It must be the first time that Clermont haven't qualified.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

How do the Ulster fanbase feel about this? Appreciate it is not representative of the real population but I have seen very few on social media supporting the decision to sack the lads - including the Ulster fan forum. Which has been offline for a couple of days now. Coincidence?

[Numbers]

Glad they're gone, we don't need this sort of behaviour in society.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

There is talk of protests in support of J & O at the Glasgow game on Saturday. There was, with the exception of one wee girl and her t-shirt, no visible protest in support of them at the Ospreys game on Friday, though there was a vocal picket of local feminists outside the stadium.

One or two former Ulster players have made public statements of support, but these have been more than balanced by other Irish veterans and the majority of our respected rugby journalists who have taken the view that the IRFU had little option but to take the action it did and that this is a reasonable response to the circumstances.

[BBD]

Clermont aren't having a great season, languishing in the lower half of the table, but they have fanatical home support and if PJ manages to perform there they will adore him and ignore his past transgressions.

Theres a full spectrum of views across a variety of different groups.
Ulster fans, Irish rugby fans, general public who are interested, groups campaigning for political and or social change
so its impossible to pin a nice convenient label and say "Ulster fans think this" As soon as I put it down there'd be someone correcting it and pointing out the variation or disagreement.

This whole process has been a massive point of debate, that for legal reasons had a big lid on prior to the court case, since the verdict its all gone a bit mental tbh but it will calm eventually. Both players will find new employers and the IRFU have been careful to not close the door entirely, whether thats because of a negative backlash if they did or theres a genuine chance they could return at some point remains to be seen

[SerjeantWildgoose]

So the scenario where PJ returns to Ravenhill wearing the blue and yellow of ASM in next season's Challenge Cup isn't out of the question?

Are you saying, Serj, that Ulster won't qualify for the Champions' Cup?
It must be the first time that Clermont haven't qualified.

I think there is a chance that Ulster won’t make it into the Chamions Cup. It’s between them and Cardiff for the 7th spot I think and while Ulster have 2 points and a game in hand, they have a couple of tough games to round off the regular season. Even without all of this distraction, they wouldn’t be confident of getting much out of Glasgow and a trip to Thomond Park.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

I think that ASM’s problems this season stem from Lopez’ injury in October and the lack of a fly half able to get their prodigiously talented backs moving. PJ would offer them a superb alternative but in the work up to a World Cup and the national side struggling to find a reliable and consistent out half will PJ simply be a bench-warmer for Cammy? Is this a judicial move by ASM to keep him out of another T14 squad?

[BBD]

Ive just been reading that Ulster supporters club are balloting their membership to find out if there is sufficient anger at the decision for a protest at the next game vs Glasgow, boycotts and a late arrival are two of teh suggestions

Mind you the late arrival could be achieved if they simply offered two for one on curry chip, the queues would be enormous!

[Numbers]

Ive just been reading that Ulster supporters club are balloting their membership to find out if there is sufficient anger at the decision for a protest at the next game vs Glasgow, boycotts and a late arrival are two of teh suggestions

Mind you the late arrival could be achieved if they simply offered two for one on curry chip, the queues would be enormous!

What the fuck are they complaining about? Do they think that the behaviour shown by these players is in anyway acceptable?

This is a reflection on the attitude of some rugby supporters, and not a good one.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

Calm down Numbers! Between you and Hughie we could end up with this place looking like the Syria thread.

I think, in answer to your question, its just that these Ulster folk like to say 'No!" given any opportunity.

[Numbers]

Calm down Numbers! Between you and Hughie we could end up with this place looking like the Syria thread.

I think, in answer to your question, its just that these Ulster folk like to say 'No!" given any opportunity.

Serge, I'm severely affronted by the sheer temerity of these people to protest that Jackson and Olding should be re-instated, as any decent human being would be.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

There is talk of protests in support of J & O at the Glasgow game on Saturday. There was, with the exception of one wee girl and her t-shirt, no visible protest in support of them at the Ospreys game on Friday, though there was a vocal picket of local feminists outside the stadium.

One or two former Ulster players have made public statements of support, but these have been more than balanced by other Irish veterans and the majority of our respected rugby journalists who have taken the view that the IRFU had little option but to take the action it did and that this is a reasonable response to the circumstances.

Not ticket holders then? That's a surprise.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

You and me alike, Big Fella, but they won't be reinstated so no need to get too angry about it. And to be honest, Ulster fans are such a bunch of anti-social ballixes anyway; what difference would this make?

[SerjeantWildgoose]

There is talk of protests in support of J & O at the Glasgow game on Saturday. There was, with the exception of one wee girl and her t-shirt, no visible protest in support of them at the Ospreys game on Friday, though there was a vocal picket of local feminists outside the stadium.

One or two former Ulster players have made public statements of support, but these have been more than balanced by other Irish veterans and the majority of our respected rugby journalists who have taken the view that the IRFU had little option but to take the action it did and that this is a reasonable response to the circumstances.

Not ticket holders then? That's a surprise.

No, not ticket holders. Likely that none of them had ever set foot in a rugby stadium or club in their lives. But that does not invalidate their view. This wasn't ever about behaviour inside a rugby stadium, was it?

[Numbers]

You and me alike, Big Fella, but they won't be reinstated so no need to get too angry about it. And to be honest, Ulster fans are such a bunch of anti-social ballixes anyway; what difference would this make?

Fair enough.

[BBD]

I'll answer, but remember, Im reporting the views of others as I see them, I dont necessarily agree with their views, so I'd appreciate it if you could tone it down as Im liable to over react and call you a digit or something

Several angles to their complaint, from different sources so they dont necessarily all make joined up sense

1) The jury found them not guilty and the presumption of innocence therefore stands
2) That leaves their conduct on the night and the texts
3) They were in their own time not on company business/time
4) Consensual group sex is not a crime and in a country that is easing itself away at increasing speed from the yoke of catholic grip upon morality/education/healthcare/sex etc what goes on in the privacy of someones home between consenting adults is nobodies business
5) That leaves the texts which firstly was a private circle of people and only became public knowledge because of the trial - circle back to point 1)
6) secondly PJ only made one derogatory comment that was that there was a lot of spit roast last night, Stuart Olding made a few, and generally worse comments on the WhatsApp group, whilst Craig Gilroy who wasn't there on the night also made some derogatory comments and so far hasn't been mentioned as facing any kind of discipline.
7) theres other bits of pedantry about the terms "spit roast" - its a descriptive term of the act in question, and "sluts" - the victim herself said in a text to her friend the morning after that the other girls there were acting "slutty" so why is ok for her to use the term and not PJ/SO/CG
8) The power of sponsors, especially the Bank of Ireland preaching morality is also a sticking point for many given their history - But this one is teh one thats hardest to gain traction on because Ulsters accounts show they made 12-16 million euros from sponsorship last year and only 3million euros on gate receipts
9) Theres also some who are still pissed off at losing Ruan Pienaar and the increase in price of a curry chip


The whole thing is a minefield

[Digby]

in a country that is easing itself away at increasing speed from the yoke of catholic grip upon morality/education/healthcare/sex etc what goes on in the privacy of someones home between consenting adults is nobodies business

We know some demand the right to be under a protestant moralising grip, catholics be damned!