Ireland v All Blacks I: Sweet Home Away from Home, Chicago

[Len]

Not taking anything away from Irelands win. Not looking for excuses.

In McCaws book (or maybe it was Carters?) They discussed the 2012 loss to England and how the preperation just wasn't there. They were off around London doing appearences and what not instead of their usual build up. I noticed they were all over they place in the states appearing at BB games and stuff. I wonder if the NZRU are trying to sell the ABs brand too hard at the exspense of the team.

[cashead]

I can see the rationale in picking Kaino at lock, and wanting to get Aaron Smith in there, but it probably also motivated the Irish. "Those fuckers are seeing US as a team to experiment against? The fucking nerve!"

Savea did fuck up at the end, but the All Blacks defence still had a chance to stop Henshaw's try at the end and failed to do so. Yeah, it was off a 5m scrum, but they've managed to hold out in those situations in the past before.

Basically, that quote from Bane is good to keep in mind - "Peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you!"

[morepork]

Mind you, a good team needs these kinds of bitter experiences once in a while to learn from, and Kieran Read'll hopefully be better for this in the same way the 2007 quarterfinal turned out to be the best thing to ever happen to McCaw as a captain.

There is something in this. Ireland fully deserved the win, and I'm not trying to take anything away from their historic victory, but I think NZ went in over-confident and complacent as we often do when we've been on a good run. The team selection was over-confident, and the starting attitude was poor. Margins are fine in top-level sport, as I've always said, and the AB's winning by 15 in one match doesn't mean they're not far off losing by 5 in another. This is a kick in the pants, which is good for the All Blacks (and their fans) to experience every so often.

What do you think about Sam Cane in this game? We got nailed at the breakdown over the entire game. The rent-a-lock situation didn't help but Ireland are traditionally strong at the breakdown. I thought Ardie was a big improvement.

[cashead]

Mind you, a good team needs these kinds of bitter experiences once in a while to learn from, and Kieran Read'll hopefully be better for this in the same way the 2007 quarterfinal turned out to be the best thing to ever happen to McCaw as a captain.

There is something in this. Ireland fully deserved the win, and I'm not trying to take anything away from their historic victory, but I think NZ went in over-confident and complacent as we often do when we've been on a good run. The team selection was over-confident, and the starting attitude was poor. Margins are fine in top-level sport, as I've always said, and the AB's winning by 15 in one match doesn't mean they're not far off losing by 5 in another. This is a kick in the pants, which is good for the All Blacks (and their fans) to experience every so often.

What do you think about Sam Cane in this game? We got nailed at the breakdown over the entire game. The rent-a-lock situation didn't help but Ireland are traditionally strong at the breakdown. I thought Ardie was a big improvement.

He was getting some key turnovers and he was being his usual grindy self, but I don't think you can really pin it entirely on him when there are 7 others that were struggling to get involved in the rucks.

[hellovating]

So after 18 in a row against tier 1 teams are we going to throw it away against a tier 2 side?

tier 2?

[dk4]

He was getting some key turnovers and he was being his usual grindy self, but I don't think you can really pin it entirely on him when there are 7 others that were struggling to get involved in the rucks.

Who got the yellow card? Was it deserved?

Ardie Savea was quite good in the end, even though he slipped during the last try.
Not sure about Kane, but we really got too many penalties in the first half. Even when we scored the last try in the second half, we managed to give immediately a silly penalty.

Not sure why he selected Kaino as a lock. Dont there are any more locks in NZ besides Romano/Metallicka and Whitelock? Makes no sense to me...

And did A Smith perform ok or was he abit rusty?

When Savea got the ball in our line , should he had gone the other way (or kicked) instead of giving them the scrum?

[morepork]

So after 18 in a row against tier 1 teams are we going to throw it away against a tier 2 side?

tier 2?

Agreed. Poor WUM.

[morepork]

There is something in this. Ireland fully deserved the win, and I'm not trying to take anything away from their historic victory, but I think NZ went in over-confident and complacent as we often do when we've been on a good run. The team selection was over-confident, and the starting attitude was poor. Margins are fine in top-level sport, as I've always said, and the AB's winning by 15 in one match doesn't mean they're not far off losing by 5 in another. This is a kick in the pants, which is good for the All Blacks (and their fans) to experience every so often.

What do you think about Sam Cane in this game? We got nailed at the breakdown over the entire game. The rent-a-lock situation didn't help but Ireland are traditionally strong at the breakdown. I thought Ardie was a big improvement.

He was getting some key turnovers and he was being his usual grindy self, but I don't think you can really pin it entirely on him when there are 7 others that were struggling to get involved in the rucks.

For sure. But there is a bit of clarity for future casual selection policy, no?

[rowan]

This 40 points must rank up there with the highest scores the All Blacks have ever conceded too. I can only think of France (43) at the 1991 RWC being higher.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

So Schmidt, fancy a job bro?

He's a shoo-in now when Hansen goes now, surely.

[cashead]

Moala's apparently got a broken arm, and Crotty's hamstring is fucked. It would be interesting to see who'll be called in now for the midfield.

Obviously the front-line midfield will become Fekitoa and Lienert-Brown (probably ALB at 12 and Fekitoa at 13), but at least one guy will need to be called up. They're going to be a bit thin at 12.

So from what I can see, the options are:

Jordie Barrett - upgraded to a full squad member.
Rieko Ioane - moved in a spot, with Fekitoa used as a 12, which has happened in the past.
Lima Sopoaga - he's on the tour anyway, and has experience at 12.
Tim Bateman - he's in town for the Maori All Blacks, and he'd be eligible via the Luke McAlister Clause
Seta Tamanivalu - he's played for the All Blacks earlier this year, so he'd be familiar with the environment and the plays

[cashead]

This 40 points must rank up there with the highest scores the All Blacks have ever conceded too. I can only think of France (43) at the 1991 RWC being higher.

Springboks in 2000, who scored 46 (in a 46-40 win at Ellis Park) which is the highest score ever registered against the All Blacks.

[Spy]

Mind you, a good team needs these kinds of bitter experiences once in a while to learn from, and Kieran Read'll hopefully be better for this in the same way the 2007 quarterfinal turned out to be the best thing to ever happen to McCaw as a captain.

There is something in this. Ireland fully deserved the win, and I'm not trying to take anything away from their historic victory, but I think NZ went in over-confident and complacent as we often do when we've been on a good run. The team selection was over-confident, and the starting attitude was poor. Margins are fine in top-level sport, as I've always said, and the AB's winning by 15 in one match doesn't mean they're not far off losing by 5 in another. This is a kick in the pants, which is good for the All Blacks (and their fans) to experience every so often.

What do you think about Sam Cane in this game? We got nailed at the breakdown over the entire game. The rent-a-lock situation didn't help but Ireland are traditionally strong at the breakdown. I thought Ardie was a big improvement.

I don't have any particular insights into Cane. I think he was forced to play pretty tight in the first half as part of a generally struggling pack, and Savea came on at a stage in the game that suited his style. I didn't think Savea really grabbed his chance to nail a starting spot earlier this year when Cane was injured.

[rowan]

This 40 points must rank up there with the highest scores the All Blacks have ever conceded too. I can only think of France (43) at the 1991 RWC being higher.

Springboks in 2000, who scored 46 (in a 46-40 win at Ellis Park) which is the highest score ever registered against the All Blacks.

Thanks. I was just looking at that. I think this might be the 3rd biggest score against them, coming after that result and 99 (not 91, obviously). Neither Australia nor England have ever scored 40 against New Zealand.

Anyway, this is a great day for rugby folks. Well done, Ireland!

[morepork]

This 40 points must rank up there with the highest scores the All Blacks have ever conceded too. I can only think of France (43) at the 1991 RWC being higher.

Springboks in 2000, who scored 46 (in a 46-40 win at Ellis Park) which is the highest score ever registered against the All Blacks.

Thanks. I was just looking at that. I think this might be the 3rd biggest score against them, coming after that result and 91. Neither Australia nor England have ever scored 40 against New Zealand.

Anyway, this is a great day for rugby folks. Well done, Ireland!

You are on the wrong board for mindless optimism.

[Spy]

One thing that hurt us, imo, was the lack of guile in the backline, especially after Crotty went off. It was his short ball that put Naholo through for the first try. But when you've got Moala, Fekitoa, Naholo and Savea all in the same backline, that's a lot of big, hard running guys with perhaps not enough creative players around them. Barrett and B Smith were potential creators, and neither of them really got going. Although Linert-Brown has missed a couple of tackles, he has managed to create a few opportunities and the backline looked better for it. Obviously the FB/wing balance has already been mentioned as well. The Crotty injury was unfortunate in that it exacerbated the issue, but even so I thought we looked a bit heavy on ball runners vs cunning planners.

[cashead]

There is something in this. Ireland fully deserved the win, and I'm not trying to take anything away from their historic victory, but I think NZ went in over-confident and complacent as we often do when we've been on a good run. The team selection was over-confident, and the starting attitude was poor. Margins are fine in top-level sport, as I've always said, and the AB's winning by 15 in one match doesn't mean they're not far off losing by 5 in another. This is a kick in the pants, which is good for the All Blacks (and their fans) to experience every so often.

What do you think about Sam Cane in this game? We got nailed at the breakdown over the entire game. The rent-a-lock situation didn't help but Ireland are traditionally strong at the breakdown. I thought Ardie was a big improvement.

I don't have any particular insights into Cane. I think he was forced to play pretty tight in the first half as part of a generally struggling pack, and Savea came on at a stage in the game that suited his style. I didn't think Savea really grabbed his chance to nail a starting spot earlier this year when Cane was injured.

Meanwhile, I'd have to say Moody's done the exact opposite of what you reckon Savea's done. He and Franks probably account for about 3/4 of the penalties the All Blacks concede in a game, and that was probably the costliest 10 minute spell I can remember in quite some time.

[morepork]

Moody and Franks did their job at the scrum. Moody was trying to lift the boys with the big fasi balasi.League background see.

[hellovating]

Moala's apparently got a broken arm, and Crotty's hamstring is fucked. It would be interesting to see who'll be called in now for the midfield.

Obviously the front-line midfield will become Fekitoa and Lienert-Brown (probably ALB at 12 and Fekitoa at 13), but at least one guy will need to be called up. They're going to be a bit thin at 12.

So from what I can see, the options are:

Jordie Barrett - upgraded to a full squad member.
Rieko Ioane - moved in a spot, with Fekitoa used as a 12, which has happened in the past.
Lima Sopoaga - he's on the tour anyway, and has experience at 12.
Tim Bateman - he's in town for the Maori All Blacks, and he'd be eligible via the Luke McAlister Clause
Seta Tamanivalu - he's played for the All Blacks earlier this year, so he'd be familiar with the environment and the plays

charles piutau, if ye had any sense.

[cashead]

Who got the yellow card? Was it deserved?

Ardie Savea was quite good in the end, even though he slipped during the last try.
Not sure about Kane, but we really got too many penalties in the first half. Even when we scored the last try in the second half, we managed to give immediately a silly penalty.

Not sure why he selected Kaino as a lock. Dont there are any more locks in NZ besides Romano/Metallicka and Whitelock? Makes no sense to me...

And did A Smith perform ok or was he abit rusty?

When Savea got the ball in our line , should he had gone the other way (or kicked) instead of giving them the scrum?

Joe Moody got the yellow, and during his time on the sidelines, the Irish scored two tries, once of which was converted.

There were also times where the Irish got away with a fair bit from the ref, as well as a questionable (at best) penalty which contributed to an Irish try (Moody tackles player legitimately, ref gives Ireland advantage because reasons, All Blacks get the ball back, ref goes to TMO, obvious legitimate tackle, ref awards Ireland a penalty anyway because reasons, Ireland go for a lineout, leads to a try to... I forget whom, one of the forwards, I think), but that was the only one which was an egregious error, and it happened at a stage in the game where it probably didn't really affect the outcome of the game.

The rationale for Kaino at lock would've been that 1. he's one of the team leaders with a shitload of experience (2 world cups, captaincy of his Super Rugby side, etc.) and 2. Scott Barrett, while talented and in form, has, like, 1 season of Super Rugby under his belt. Hansen clearly opted for experience over specialisation. There are good locks like Tom Franklin, Michael Fatialofa and Joe Wheeler, and Dominic Bird - 2 of whom have been involved in the All Blacks and I think Hansen really goofed in not bringing at least one of those guys along as well.

Aaron Smith played like a guy who hasn't played in over a month, an in a game like this, he was made to look like shit.

Julian Savea probably should've taken the ball into contact near his own players so that the ABs had a chance of recycling it. Pretty much just about every option he had was better than what he ended up doing.

[cashead]

charles piutau, if ye had any sense.

Piutau is not eligible, and won't be unless he finishes his Ulster contract early and signs with the NZRU (plus one of the provinces).

[hellovating]

charles piutau, if ye had any sense.

Piutau is not eligible, and won't be unless he finishes his Ulster contract early and signs with the NZRU (plus one of the provinces).

certainly is eligible under world rugby regs.

internal NZ rules have been broken before.

[hellovating]

There were also times where the Irish got away with a fair bit from the ref

don't do that shit. people do that shit when they lose against ye all the time. it's crap then and now.

[cashead]

charles piutau, if ye had any sense.

Piutau is not eligible, and won't be unless he finishes his Ulster contract early and signs with the NZRU (plus one of the provinces).

certainly is eligible under world rugby regs.

internal NZ rules have been broken before.

They've been bent, but never actually broken. The 2 closest I can think of are:

1. Daniel Carter in 2009 - He was injured and barely played anyway, but he was still actually signed with the NZRU during his jolly jaunt with Perpignan that year, as part of a "sabbatical clause," which is now offered to elite-level All Blacks where they can remain signed but have a lengthy amount of time off to do what they please be it sign a brief deal with an overseas club/province (a la Carter in France, SBW and Nonu in Japan) or sit around and let their bodies rest up like McCaw or Conrad Smith did.

2. Luke McAlister, also in 2009 - He was making a surprise return from Sale (I think), and while he had yet to appear for any New Zealand Super Rugby side or province, the NZRU amended their eligibility rules to say "hey, he's signed with us and that's good enough!" I'm not sure it's actually been exploited since, and he played like shit anyway.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

There were also times where the Irish got away with a fair bit from the ref

don't do that shit. people do that shit when they lose against ye all the time. it's crap then and now.

What hellov said.