RugbyRebels

Big D wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Big D wrote:
It is a tough one. Especially with the changes up top.

Playing devils advocate, how many batsmen in the England side playing Ireland are proven, and by that I mean consistently performing, at test level when you consider all of them down to Bairstow and maybe at a push Ali are picked for their batting over any other discipline. Arguably only Root. Bairstow and Ali is full flow are great to watch, but both are very inconsistent and at times lack the technique needed. Bairstow averages 35 across 100+ innings, a good bit below that over the last 2 years (30). Moeen has played 100 innings and averaging 30, again a good bit lower over the last 2 years (22).

At what point do the alternatives get given an extended run in the side like a Ben Foakes for example who had a promising start but had a difficult series in the West Indies (wasn't the only one)? Or Sibley who has scored heavily this year?

On the plus side Archer has passed a fitness test.

My key point is that YJB, Root, and Ali are much better test batsman than they have just demonstrated, and its jitters. That's shown by falls of wicket clustering together. All this batting lineup should be doing much better against a county level bowling attack tbh. See Leach.

Again, playing the other side of the discussion, other than Root, are they really based upon the last two years? Over the last quarter of their current international careers they aren't much better test batsman than what they have shown. At what point does their early international form become the outlier in their performances? 11 out of Bairstows last 18 or so innings have seen scores of 15 or less back to the start of the India series or 12 out of 22 of including Pakistan.

The batting line up has generally been inconsistent for a while. It cannot only be the top 3 are at fault.

Stom wrote:I just feel like the players are not performing in white, and it's gone on for a while... I blamed the coaches a year or so back. I still blame them. Wonderful white ball coaches, somethings off with the red ball.

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:I just feel like the players are not performing in white, and it's gone on for a while... I blamed the coaches a year or so back. I still blame them. Wonderful white ball coaches, somethings off with the red ball.

specifically what do you blame the coaches for?

Banquo wrote:

Big D wrote:

Banquo wrote: My key point is that YJB, Root, and Ali are much better test batsman than they have just demonstrated, and its jitters. That's shown by falls of wicket clustering together. All this batting lineup should be doing much better against a county level bowling attack tbh. See Leach.

Again, playing the other side of the discussion, other than Root, are they really based upon the last two years? Over the last quarter of their current international careers they aren't much better test batsman than what they have shown. At what point does their early international form become the outlier in their performances? 11 out of Bairstows last 18 or so innings have seen scores of 15 or less back to the start of the India series or 12 out of 22 of including Pakistan.

The batting line up has generally been inconsistent for a while. It cannot only be the top 3 are at fault.

My contention is that Root and YJB in particular are test quality batsmen, who have seen a drop off in form, at least in part because the top 3 failing puts a load of pressure on them, and this is compounded by playing against a side you should easily beat...and that jitters have set in. In fairness, as you will have spotted, the middle/lower middle order have been bailing us out when we have succeeded. All of Root, YJB and Woakes are much better batsmen than they have shown (have a look at ODI, even if its a different game), and especially against Ireland they should be doing a load better. Ali is in a large trough I agree, but again, its bottle with him imo.

To me, it absolutely is rooted in 50% of your specialist batsmen not being reliable, and the knock on is obvious; you can see how nervous the guys have become.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:I just feel like the players are not performing in white, and it's gone on for a while... I blamed the coaches a year or so back. I still blame them. Wonderful white ball coaches, somethings off with the red ball.

specifically what do you blame the coaches for?

When there is a single, identifiable weakness in a team, and that weakness continues for 3 years, meanwhile there is a coaching team who's best results are in white ball cricket and who had a focus on white ball cricket...

Apart from Burns, who has the form of a single cell ameoba, the failures are all players who have been playing white ball cricket and the players who scored any runs or took any wickets have been playing red ball cricket.

Big D wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Big D wrote:

Again, playing the other side of the discussion, other than Root, are they really based upon the last two years? Over the last quarter of their current international careers they aren't much better test batsman than what they have shown. At what point does their early international form become the outlier in their performances? 11 out of Bairstows last 18 or so innings have seen scores of 15 or less back to the start of the India series or 12 out of 22 of including Pakistan.

The batting line up has generally been inconsistent for a while. It cannot only be the top 3 are at fault.

My contention is that Root and YJB in particular are test quality batsmen, who have seen a drop off in form, at least in part because the top 3 failing puts a load of pressure on them, and this is compounded by playing against a side you should easily beat...and that jitters have set in. In fairness, as you will have spotted, the middle/lower middle order have been bailing us out when we have succeeded. All of Root, YJB and Woakes are much better batsmen than they have shown (have a look at ODI, even if its a different game), and especially against Ireland they should be doing a load better. Ali is in a large trough I agree, but again, its bottle with him imo.

To me, it absolutely is rooted in 50% of your specialist batsmen not being reliable, and the knock on is obvious; you can see how nervous the guys have become.

I think it is an interesting discussion to have as it is easy to simply brush off extended poor runs of form. Particularly around Bairstow as there better keepers out there. Root is class and Woakes is a bowler who can bat a little so I expect a little inconsistency from him.

Batting where Bairstow does in one dayers is ideal for him if there is no swing as the white ball doesnt do much and he can attack most of the time and failure is tolerated.

Batting where Bairstow does in tests will see him need to dig in at times either through collapses or the new ball and just see bowlers off and he can't or doesnt do it. It is easy to blame the top order and they must shoulder part of the blame, but he should have the know how and game sense to dig in rather than the dross he has served up at times over the last 2 years.

Maybe it is a lack of red ball cricket?

Banquo wrote:

Big D wrote:

Banquo wrote: My contention is that Root and YJB in particular are test quality batsmen, who have seen a drop off in form, at least in part because the top 3 failing puts a load of pressure on them, and this is compounded by playing against a side you should easily beat...and that jitters have set in. In fairness, as you will have spotted, the middle/lower middle order have been bailing us out when we have succeeded. All of Root, YJB and Woakes are much better batsmen than they have shown (have a look at ODI, even if its a different game), and especially against Ireland they should be doing a load better. Ali is in a large trough I agree, but again, its bottle with him imo.

To me, it absolutely is rooted in 50% of your specialist batsmen not being reliable, and the knock on is obvious; you can see how nervous the guys have become.

I think it is an interesting discussion to have as it is easy to simply brush off extended poor runs of form. Particularly around Bairstow as there better keepers out there. Root is class and Woakes is a bowler who can bat a little so I expect a little inconsistency from him.

Batting where Bairstow does in one dayers is ideal for him if there is no swing as the white ball doesnt do much and he can attack most of the time and failure is tolerated.

Batting where Bairstow does in tests will see him need to dig in at times either through collapses or the new ball and just see bowlers off and he can't or doesnt do it. It is easy to blame the top order and they must shoulder part of the blame, but he should have the know how and game sense to dig in rather than the dross he has served up at times over the last 2 years.

Maybe it is a lack of red ball cricket?

So your argument is basically centred around Bairstow not being a test class batsman. Which is a bit of a step away from my point about collapsing.

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote: specifically what do you blame the coaches for?

When there is a single, identifiable weakness in a team, and that weakness continues for 3 years, meanwhile there is a coaching team who's best results are in white ball cricket and who had a focus on white ball cricket...

Apart from Burns, who has the form of a single cell ameoba, the failures are all players who have been playing white ball cricket and the players who scored any runs or took any wickets have been playing red ball cricket.

The single identifiable problem being the top 3 batsmen? Or are you now talking about this specific game?

Or do you mean we are worse at red ball cricket than white ball cricket?

The big problem is consistency in red ball, not sure how one minute you are hammering India in tests, and the next losing badly to the West Indies; I think its mental resilience as much as anything, though not helped by not having a top 3!

Big D wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Big D wrote:
I think it is an interesting discussion to have as it is easy to simply brush off extended poor runs of form. Particularly around Bairstow as there better keepers out there. Root is class and Woakes is a bowler who can bat a little so I expect a little inconsistency from him.

Batting where Bairstow does in one dayers is ideal for him if there is no swing as the white ball doesnt do much and he can attack most of the time and failure is tolerated.

Batting where Bairstow does in tests will see him need to dig in at times either through collapses or the new ball and just see bowlers off and he can't or doesnt do it. It is easy to blame the top order and they must shoulder part of the blame, but he should have the know how and game sense to dig in rather than the dross he has served up at times over the last 2 years.

Maybe it is a lack of red ball cricket?

So your argument is basically centred around Bairstow not being a test class batsman. Which is a bit of a step away from my point about collapsing.

Yes although they are linked if the collapses are happening because the batsman/men aren't up to it.

I guess it is at what point do the selectors say the likes of Sibley, Foakes etc deserve their chance for a prolonged period. Australia at home and South Africa away will be stern tests.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:
When there is a single, identifiable weakness in a team, and that weakness continues for 3 years, meanwhile there is a coaching team who's best results are in white ball cricket and who had a focus on white ball cricket...

Apart from Burns, who has the form of a single cell ameoba, the failures are all players who have been playing white ball cricket and the players who scored any runs or took any wickets have been playing red ball cricket.

The single identifiable problem being the top 3 batsmen? Or are you now talking about this specific game?

Or do you mean we are worse at red ball cricket than white ball cricket?

The big problem is consistency in red ball, not sure how one minute you are hammering India in tests, and the next losing badly to the West Indies; I think its mental resilience as much as anything, though not helped by not having a top 3!

Mental aptitude. Because it happens to the middle orders as well as the top 3. That they just can't concentrate.

Roy in the first innings was the most "caught in 2 minds" player I've seen.

They're not being prepared for red ball cricket. I think it's as simple as that. Hence our best players consistently being our red ball specialists and Root (who's just class).

Digby wrote:Still think they should drag the captaincy off Root, he's not scoring the runs to justify holding onto the role. And he's arguably our biggest talent

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:Still think they should drag the captaincy off Root, he's not scoring the runs to justify holding onto the role. And he's arguably our biggest talent

The problem still occurs, same as it did when he was given the job - who else is there to give it to?

Puja

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:Still think they should drag the captaincy off Root, he's not scoring the runs to justify holding onto the role. And he's arguably our biggest talent

The problem still occurs, same as it did when he was given the job - who else is there to give it to?

Puja

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:Still think they should drag the captaincy off Root, he's not scoring the runs to justify holding onto the role. And he's arguably our biggest talent

The problem still occurs, same as it did when he was given the job - who else is there to give it to?

Puja

In the first instance I'd take Root getting his batting average back to how he was scoring before he was made captain, that would help more than whoever the actual captain is.

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:
The problem still occurs, same as it did when he was given the job - who else is there to give it to?

Puja

In the first instance I'd take Root getting his batting average back to how he was scoring before he was made captain, that would help more than whoever the actual captain is.

There's no guarantee that he'd drop straight back into form though, but appointing a shunt captain would cost us immediately. The only name that springs to mind is Broad and it's rarely a good idea to make a bowler captain.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:
The problem still occurs, same as it did when he was given the job - who else is there to give it to?

Puja

In the first instance I'd take Root getting his batting average back to how he was scoring before he was made captain, that would help more than whoever the actual captain is.

There's no guarantee that he'd drop straight back into form though, but appointing a shunt captain would cost us immediately. The only name that springs to mind is Broad and it's rarely a good idea to make a bowler captain.

Puja

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:
In the first instance I'd take Root getting his batting average back to how he was scoring before he was made captain, that would help more than whoever the actual captain is.

There's no guarantee that he'd drop straight back into form though, but appointing a shunt captain would cost us immediately. The only name that springs to mind is Broad and it's rarely a good idea to make a bowler captain.

Puja

..or a player who isn't certain to start...

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
There's no guarantee that he'd drop straight back into form though, but appointing a shunt captain would cost us immediately. The only name that springs to mind is Broad and it's rarely a good idea to make a bowler captain.

Puja

..or a player who isn't certain to start...

Indeed. No-one wants a Phil de Glanville - same problem with Buttler. Stokes is a reasonable shout though.

Puja