Brexit delayed

[Digby]

I can completely understand why those in key positions kept information quiet. The damage that could have been caused by a panic. It s a bit naive to expect governments to release every piece of information they hold. In some areas it could do more harm than good.

I get that, but I do tend toward thinking being honest and open on a standard basis actually helps build trust so people are more inclined to believe you. Also without seeing the figures it'd be hard to know, but one would have to assume Norther Rock was going to the wall whatever was or wasn't said, so why not be honest about the Rock so when you make the claim for the next bank people don't assume you were being secretive as might have King's plan?

I do in the main have a fair amount of respect for King, this one I think he's on the wrong side of, though the pressure was massive, especially with a PM and Chancellor desperate not to use the word 'nationalise' - at least we wouldn't have that problem should dear Jeremy come to power

If NR could have been saved then there was no need to start a panic. Financial services rely on confidence and without it, NR was screwed. We know now that NR was stuffed regardless, but if there as a chance to save it then the Govt and BoE were right to try. I'd suggest that King acted with the best of intentions.

I'd agree he attempted to act with the best of intentions, I simply think he was wrong. And I don't see where they could have seen a chance to save the Rock coming from as it happens, and I don't see how it wouldn't have leaked anyway, even aside from all the BoE and NRK staff you'd still have had all the civil service and government staff in on the know, and both Blair's and Brown's governments leaked like a sieve

I also think people are more likely to panic if you're not open and honest with them, though quite how one rebuilds trust in the political classes I don't know

[Sandydragon]

The problem is that some voters are so keen to get an authentic politician, they will take any idiot who isn't a smooth politician, i.e. Trump. Apparently, being a lunatic bigot is perfectly fine provided you aren't a slick politician.

[Digby]

The problem is that some voters are so keen to get an authentic politician, they will take any idiot who isn't a smooth politician, i.e. Trump. Apparently, being a lunatic bigot is perfectly fine provided you aren't a slick politician.

And some people didn't like the BBC weather forecasts as they had isobars which befuddled them and so we get dumbed down content. I sticking with the best way past this is to raise the standard of debate, raise the standard of education, and to expect honesty and openness wherever possible

[kk67]

Since the explosion of the information and technology era, I get the feeling that the dumbing down of political debate has been quite deliberate on some people's behalf. We are in an age of victimization and resentment that is a bit scary. Maybe I'm just a big softie but things certainly seem very ugly.

[kk67]

Boris is losing this discussion.
Jo Coburn ripped IDS to pieces on The Daily Politics. I've always thought she was a bit of a pain but as she's maturing, she might yet become one of my guilty secrets.

[Sandydragon]

Boris is losing this discussion.
Jo Coburn ripped IDS to pieces on The Daily Politics. I've always thought she was a bit of a pain but as she's maturing, she might yet become one of my guilty secrets.

Boris has been told that jumping ship now is the wrong time and will just look petulant. The only ideology that Boris has is Boris.

[kk67]

Boris thinks he's Churchill. A serious war would suit his plans perfectly.

The only difference is that he'll be hoping to run his fingers through his luxuriant hair while demonstrating his angst and regret at having to sacrifice 'so many innocent lives' in the name of English Elitism.

[Mikey Brown]

Why did I bother watching that?

Oh, here we go. https://markets.ft.com/data/currencies/ ... y?s=gbpeur

[Sandydragon]

And predictably Farage talks of betrayal. At least a hard brexit seems to be off the agenda. At least for this week.

[kk67]

I find it a bit worrying that some home counties MP's believe they can dictate what sort of Brexit is going to occur.
Whereas the rest of the union think that we are the ones that shat the bed and we're going to have to sleep in it.
Which seems fair enough.

[Mikey Brown]

Once again.

[Sandydragon]

I find it a bit worrying that some home counties MP's believe they can dictate what sort of Brexit is going to occur.
Whereas the rest of the union think that we are the ones that shat the bed and we're going to have to sleep in it.
Which seems fair enough.

Well on one case they/ the Uk could by just leaving in 2019 with no agreement. I’m not suggesting we should do that incidentally, but it’s the only course of action where we don’t need to compromise with the rest of Europe.

Anything else needs us to work together which is looking like a difficult hurdle to overcome given some of the views on both sides and neither side having to plot a clear course of what they want to achieve through that confusion.

The Tory’s are arguing amongst themselves, but so too are labour. For me this all comes back to the referendum and the recklessness of holding a major constitutional decision with the general public without any real clear plan of what they were voting for.

[Stom]

I find it a bit worrying that some home counties MP's believe they can dictate what sort of Brexit is going to occur.
Whereas the rest of the union think that we are the ones that shat the bed and we're going to have to sleep in it.
Which seems fair enough.

Well on one case they/ the Uk could by just leaving in 2019 with no agreement. I’m not suggesting we should do that incidentally, but it’s the only course of action where we don’t need to compromise with the rest of Europe.

Anything else needs us to work together which is looking like a difficult hurdle to overcome given some of the views on both sides and neither side having to plot a clear course of what they want to achieve through that confusion.

The Tory’s are arguing amongst themselves, but so too are labour. For me this all comes back to the referendum and the recklessness of holding a major constitutional decision with the general public without any real clear plan of what they were voting for.

If the current Labour leadership team were a bit better at (privately) communicating their reasons for their EU policy, I'd imagine there would be a lot less in-fighting. Alas, they're not the best at that.

There is one good, and only one, reason for leaving the EU, and that is to try and enact change. The Visegrad countries tried to give some input into how the EU could be changed, but were shouted down. The UK holds more power, so would be better able to actually push something through. Anything that takes power away from benelux is good in my eyes.

[Digby]

I find it a bit worrying that some home counties MP's believe they can dictate what sort of Brexit is going to occur.
Whereas the rest of the union think that we are the ones that shat the bed and we're going to have to sleep in it.
Which seems fair enough.

Well on one case they/ the Uk could by just leaving in 2019 with no agreement. I’m not suggesting we should do that incidentally, but it’s the only course of action where we don’t need to compromise with the rest of Europe.

Anything else needs us to work together which is looking like a difficult hurdle to overcome given some of the views on both sides and neither side having to plot a clear course of what they want to achieve through that confusion.

The Tory’s are arguing amongst themselves, but so too are labour. For me this all comes back to the referendum and the recklessness of holding a major constitutional decision with the general public without any real clear plan of what they were voting for.

If the current Labour leadership team were a bit better at (privately) communicating their reasons for their EU policy, I'd imagine there would be a lot less in-fighting. Alas, they're not the best at that.

There is one good, and only one, reason for leaving the EU, and that is to try and enact change. The Visegrad countries tried to give some input into how the EU could be changed, but were shouted down. The UK holds more power, so would be better able to actually push something through. Anything that takes power away from benelux is good in my eyes.

We would still need to compromise with the rest of the EU if we left with no deal as there'd still be WTO issues to iron out between us and the EU.

And Labour aren't going to make much headway on their position on Europe if they're not even willing to debate it at conference. It would seem Corbyn has taken a traditional Commie solution to the fact that many of his younger supporters want to stay in the single market and decided in the interests of democracy to save asking everyone else what their opinion is, and I'm not making this up, you can only discuss future policy of Brexit at fringe events in Brighton (which is to say the Labour annual conference), there's no general discussion/vote period. Maybe not asking anyone what their opinion is, not being clear on what your opinion is, and then ramming home his decision without discussion at the last minute is what Corbyn means by doing it a different way, but it's an utter failing in openness and accountability from the Dear Leader™

Obviously Corbyn doesn't want the EU as he wants to be able to move on state aid and state ownership, and EU rules prevent much of that. He's been talking about state aid quite a bit recently, though as he's not setting out how he's paying for anything I can only hope nobody takes him seriously.

[canta_brian]

Remind me again how we paid for quantitative easing and how that differs from state aid?

[kk67]

Altruistic unity is anathema to business.
Until we recognize this on a global level......then profit will eventually kill us all.


If you make health 'for profit',......then illness becomes the profit maker.

[Stom]

Remind me again how we paid for quantitative easing and how that differs from state aid?

Because only dirty commies use state aid?

Or is it dictatorships?

I forget. But upstanding governments use quantitive easing. Upstanding governments prop up banks, it's essential to the economy.

Schools aren't, though, no.

[Digby]

Remind me again how we paid for quantitative easing and how that differs from state aid?

Because only dirty commies use state aid?

Or is it dictatorships?

I forget. But upstanding governments use quantitive easing. Upstanding governments prop up banks, it's essential to the economy.

Schools aren't, though, no.

The QE process has been barking mad, but perhaps also necessary. I'd have thought it was at least a chance to sit on the banks and not let them simply continue to pay ever higher salaries and bonuses apart from anything else, but we didn't get that in return. And there's little doubt the QE process flies in the face of a great many rules on state aid, which is being ignored for some obvious reasons.

However it's not a process that one should look to continue, it's perhaps only worked this far as everyone involved is tacitly agreeing to ignore it's a barking mad policy and the whole edifice might crumble if anyone was stupid enough to start asking questions. Quite frankly it makes PFI look a sane and well administered piece of work, and I didn't expect anything would do that so easily, certainly not so quickly.

I'd hope nodoby wants to even consider continuing with QE, for whatever reason.

[Sandydragon]

I find it a bit worrying that some home counties MP's believe they can dictate what sort of Brexit is going to occur.
Whereas the rest of the union think that we are the ones that shat the bed and we're going to have to sleep in it.
Which seems fair enough.

Well on one case they/ the Uk could by just leaving in 2019 with no agreement. I’m not suggesting we should do that incidentally, but it’s the only course of action where we don’t need to compromise with the rest of Europe.

Anything else needs us to work together which is looking like a difficult hurdle to overcome given some of the views on both sides and neither side having to plot a clear course of what they want to achieve through that confusion.

The Tory’s are arguing amongst themselves, but so too are labour. For me this all comes back to the referendum and the recklessness of holding a major constitutional decision with the general public without any real clear plan of what they were voting for.

If the current Labour leadership team were a bit better at (privately) communicating their reasons for their EU policy, I'd imagine there would be a lot less in-fighting. Alas, they're not the best at that.

There is one good, and only one, reason for leaving the EU, and that is to try and enact change. The Visegrad countries tried to give some input into how the EU could be changed, but were shouted down. The UK holds more power, so would be better able to actually push something through. Anything that takes power away from benelux is good in my eyes.

The UK tried to change the EU whilst part of it. I'm not sure that we have have any increased impact now.

[Digby]

And now we've a problem with nations outside the EU

https://www.ft.com/content/92bb5636-a95 ... 219df83c97

'The Trump administration has joined a group of countries objecting to a deal between the UK and EU to divide valuable agricultural import quotas, in a sign of how the US and others plan to use Brexit to force the UK to further open its sensitive market for farm products. 

President Donald Trump has been one of the most prominent international backers of Brexit and has vowed quickly to negotiate a “beautiful trade deal” with the UK after it leaves the EU. 

But his administration’s objection to a preliminary plan, agreed to by Brussels and London over how to split the EU’s existing “tariff rate quotas” under World Trade Organisation rules after the UK assumes its own WTO obligations following Brexit, illustrates how Washington is likely to drive a hard bargain....'

It's almost like this is a highly detailed and complex set of negotiations, as was made abundantly clear.

[Stom]

And now we've a problem with nations outside the EU

https://www.ft.com/content/92bb5636-a95 ... 219df83c97

'The Trump administration has joined a group of countries objecting to a deal between the UK and EU to divide valuable agricultural import quotas, in a sign of how the US and others plan to use Brexit to force the UK to further open its sensitive market for farm products. 

President Donald Trump has been one of the most prominent international backers of Brexit and has vowed quickly to negotiate a “beautiful trade deal” with the UK after it leaves the EU. 

But his administration’s objection to a preliminary plan, agreed to by Brussels and London over how to split the EU’s existing “tariff rate quotas” under World Trade Organisation rules after the UK assumes its own WTO obligations following Brexit, illustrates how Washington is likely to drive a hard bargain....'

It's almost like this is a highly detailed and complex set of negotiations, as was made abundantly clear.

I'm so glad I'm not going to have to deal with the fallout first hand...

[Digby]

McDonnell on Marr saying that Labour would take legal advice on our obligations (payments) due to the EU. Which isn't a bit of a cop out, it's a massive cop out, but only runs on from the Labour conference not having a debate on Brexit.

McDonnell also saying Labour will not countenance a no deal scenario, I'd imagine some Labour MPs will vote for Brexit no matter any dictate from the Glorious Leader™, but even so it's not like there aren't many Tory MPs who abhor a no deal scenario, so it could be close on any Brexit vote in parliament. I tend to think given the referendum result enough MPs will be inclined to vote for the leave deal, no matter personal preferences but it's bloody hard to see what path anyone could plot through this.

[kk67]

Observer reporting that the cross-party lobby refusing to accept a 'no deal' agreement is currently at 120 MP's.

The possibility of Amber or JKnut becoming chancellor is deeply disturbing.

[Digby]

In advance I don't have an issue with Amber Rudd taking the job of chancellor, I don't agree with her on a number of issues but she seems capable. I'd think similar for Keir Starmer, Chuka Ummuna, Yvette Cooper....

[Digby]

May on her way to Europe to set things straight, Number 10 says this was a planned visit, that until very recently it wasn't on anyone's schedule suggests it might have been some last minute planning. And last minute decisions was something we saw much more of under Cameron than being a style one associates with May, with May I'm more inclined to think she's realised if she doesn't give people time to lobby they can't pester her as much.

Perhaps some slightly annoying news for May as she travels that the ONS have revealed we've last half a trillion down the back of the sofa, a readjustment is one thing, but half a trillion is a hell of a rounding error.