England pack for AIs?

[Mikey Brown]

I think we'd also see the fistful of red cards that Johnson picks up every season as a barrier to becoming an England player if he were around right now.

[Puja]

I think we'd also see the fistful of red cards that Johnson picks up every season as a barrier to becoming an England player if he were around right now.

IIRC, Johnno was only once red carded. A few sinbins and a few bans across his career, but no more than Sinckler or Marler. Certainly far less than Hartley.

Puja

[Banquo]

I think we'd also see the fistful of red cards that Johnson picks up every season as a barrier to becoming an England player if he were around right now.

IIRC, Johnno was only once red carded. A few sinbins and a few bans across his career, but no more than Sinckler or Marler. Certainly far less than Hartley.

Puja

Think he is saying he'd get more these days.....which would likely be the case if he didn't adapt, but he consistently showed he could. I never thought of him as an ill disciplined or dirty player anyway, though some do.

Anyway, if Itoje has as great a career in terms of impact as Johnson, that would be a great result.

[Oakboy]

I think we'd also see the fistful of red cards that Johnson picks up every season as a barrier to becoming an England player if he were around right now.

IIRC, Johnno was only once red carded. A few sinbins and a few bans across his career, but no more than Sinckler or Marler. Certainly far less than Hartley.

Puja

Think he is saying he'd get more these days.....which would likely be the case if he didn't adapt, but he consistently showed he could. I never thought of him as an ill disciplined or dirty player anyway, though some do.

Anyway, if Itoje has as great a career in terms of impact as Jonhson, that would be a great result.

Johnson was an enforcer in times when the word meant something. Largely, the need for some of his man-to-man aggression has been side-lined by the laws and codes of conduct - basically, no punch-ups without red cards.

Of course, the other factors were that he was captain and leader of England when they were the world's best (not popular with all other countries) and he was captain of Leicester when they were the dominant club (not popular with fans of all other clubs).

That he could maintain such a dignified on and off-field presence in those circumstances make him one of the all-time great characters (apart from him being a damned good player). If Itoje gets close to Johnson's overall contribution to the game it will be fantastic but he has hell of a way to go yet.

[Mikey Brown]

Aye. Was a bit tongue in cheek but I meant his past behaviour in today's game would yield an impressive collection of bans. Same of Wilkinson though, every tackle he made was a "tip" tackle.

Don't concern yourselves over whether I have a point or not. I absolutely don't.

[Puja]

Aye. Was a bit tongue in cheek but I meant his past behaviour in today's game would yield an impressive collection of bans. Same of Wilkinson though, every tackle he made was a "tip" tackle.

Don't concern yourselves over whether I have a point or not. I absolutely don't.

I was actually thinking of Wilkinson when the comparisons were going round - I've got videos of some of his tackles saved and they'd be straight red 4 week ban nowadays. Back in those days, we just chuckled at Matt Giteau flailing helplessly before getting driven into the ground neck first.

And no-one ever really has a point on here - that's the beauty of it.

Puja

[Stom]

IIRC, Johnno was only once red carded. A few sinbins and a few bans across his career, but no more than Sinckler or Marler. Certainly far less than Hartley.

Puja

Think he is saying he'd get more these days.....which would likely be the case if he didn't adapt, but he consistently showed he could. I never thought of him as an ill disciplined or dirty player anyway, though some do.

Anyway, if Itoje has as great a career in terms of impact as Jonhson, that would be a great result.

Johnson was an enforcer in times when the word meant something. Largely, the need for some of his man-to-man aggression has been side-lined by the laws and codes of conduct - basically, no punch-ups without red cards.

Of course, the other factors were that he was captain and leader of England when they were the world's best (not popular with all other countries) and he was captain of Leicester when they were the dominant club (not popular with fans of all other clubs).

That he could maintain such a dignified on and off-field presence in those circumstances make him one of the all-time great characters (apart from him being a damned good player). If Itoje gets close to Johnson's overall contribution to the game it will be fantastic but he has hell of a way to go yet.

But the point is, he wasn't any of these things at 22.

I came late to Johnson's career. The first England game I remember anything of was in 1995.

[Banquo]

I'd actually liken the idea of putting Itoje at 8 to the current situation with Farrell at 12. For me it qualifies as an actual problem.

Unless you're saying the answer is to simply put one of them on the bench.

its a miles worse idea, and the farrell call isn't great.

[Oakboy]

But the point is, he wasn't any of these things at 22.

Quite true but, to an extent, the point is also that he could not have been as the game was so different. It's comparing an elephant with a mammoth. But, just to give an extreme (but slightly silly) example, would Itoje have been the player that Johnson was at 22 if he'd been punched as many times as Johnson had? We'll never know.

[Mikey Brown]

That's got to be one of my favourite sentences of all time in this place?

[Puja]

Shall I just lock the thread now? It feels like we've achieved entelchy.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Well we've stopped talking about opensides so I doubt Jngf gives a shit anymore.

[Banquo]

Well we've stopped talking about opensides so I doubt Jngf gives a shit anymore.

ha, exactly what I thought. Job done.

Though I do think Itoje would be more suited to 7, than to 8.

lights blue touch paper

[Digby]

Could Itoje play 12?

[Banquo]

Could Itoje play 12?

slaps forehead with palm...no, his kicking isn't quite on the money. Every other box is firmly ticked.

[Oakboy]

Could Itoje play 12?

slaps forehead with palm...no, his kicking isn't quite on the money. Every other box is firmly ticked.

If his kicking is crap, are you suggesting he can do everything that T'eo can do?

[Puja]

Could Itoje play 12?

I keep telling you - he's not really a blindside flanker! Of course he can't wear 12!

Puja

[Peat]

I say we try Itoje as a Mike Brown replacement.

[Banquo]

Could Itoje play 12?

slaps forehead with palm...no, his kicking isn't quite on the money. Every other box is firmly ticked.

If his kicking is crap, are you suggesting he can do everything that T'eo can do?

No, Teo is better in the lineout....if we are pressing the ridiculous button....

[Digby]

Could Itoje play 12?

I keep telling you - he's not really a blindside flanker! Of course he can't wear 12!

Puja

As a twelve he'd be twice what he was at six

[Mikey Brown]

Gosh. Imagine a backline with Itoje at 12 and Batteringramahan at 15.

[Banquo]

Gosh. Imagine a backline with Itoje at 12 and Batteringramahan at 15.

that's Beef/Jones porn, that is

[Digby]

I forget, was Batteringramahan one of the masters of the universe?

[Scrumhead]

You're thing of Ram Man. He would definitely be a prop.

[Puja]

You're thing of Ram Man. He would definitely be a prop.

Isn't Ram Man just Andrew Sheridan's secret identity?

Puja