England pack for AIs?

[Banquo]

What on? How to combine the facial hair of a 16 year old with the face of a 46 year old?

That was my point at the time. Lancaster asked him to address the squad during his first year as coach. We had the most pointless argument about it at the time. Diggers and M Brown were in danger of going down the same cul de sac.

Shut your festering gob you tit. Your type makes me puke you vacuous toffee nose malodorous pervert

You've not been Idle

[Digby]

That was my point at the time. Lancaster asked him to address the squad during his first year as coach. We had the most pointless argument about it at the time. Diggers and M Brown were in danger of going down the same cul de sac.

Shut your festering gob you tit. Your type makes me puke you vacuous toffee nose malodorous pervert

You've not been Idle

I remember it as the importance of being Graham not Eric

[Mellsblue]

What on? How to combine the facial hair of a 16 year old with the face of a 46 year old?

That was my point at the time. Lancaster asked him to address the squad during his first year as coach. We had the most pointless argument about it at the time. Diggers and M Brown were in danger of going down the same cul de sac.

Shut your festering gob you tit. Your type makes me puke you vacuous toffee nose malodorous pervert

Proof that you are never really anonoymous on the internet. We've never met and that is pretty much me to a t.

[Digby]

That was my point at the time. Lancaster asked him to address the squad during his first year as coach. We had the most pointless argument about it at the time. Diggers and M Brown were in danger of going down the same cul de sac.

Shut your festering gob you tit. Your type makes me puke you vacuous toffee nose malodorous pervert

Proof that you are never really anonoymous on the internet. We've never met and that is pretty much me to a t.

I'm struggling to do better than no it isn't

[francoisfou]

Nobody's mentioned Simmons, the Exeter 8, who's been shifting a few pianos of late.
Surely he deserves to be considered by EJ?

[Mellsblue]

Nobody's mentioned Simmons, the Exeter 8, who's been shifting a few pianos of late.
Surely he deserves to be considered by EJ?

I think everybody has!

[francoisfou]

Nobody's mentioned Simmons, the Exeter 8, who's been shifting a few pianos of late.
Surely he deserves to be considered by EJ?

I think everybody has!

Hmm. I know me eyes an' ears ain't what they used to be, but I've picked up one or two references to tits, perverts and culs on this thread , but no Simmonses.

[Mellsblue]

Nobody's mentioned Simmons, the Exeter 8, who's been shifting a few pianos of late.
Surely he deserves to be considered by EJ?

I think everybody has!

Hmm. I know me eyes an' ears ain't what they used to be, but I've picked up one or two references to tits, perverts and culs on this thread , but no Simmonses.

There was a a short discussion about how well he was playing and everyone agreed. However, most felt that he might not be big enough to play the Billy role.

[Mikey Brown]

What on? How to combine the facial hair of a 16 year old with the face of a 46 year old?

That was my point at the time. Lancaster asked him to address the squad during his first year as coach. We had the most pointless argument about it at the time. Diggers and M Brown were in danger of going down the same cul de sac.

I appreciate it. The Neville comment completely threw me off.

As wrong as I know it is I'm struggling not to go back to it. I still can't quite wrap my head around whether he thinks that Quins themselves are going to view this game as a dud, because obviously there's no way they'll win the league. If any of these guys actually thought that way there would be no point in having a league in the first place.

If Jones is expecting any of his players to share that mindset, then they're simply not worth having.

[francoisfou]

I think everybody has!

Hmm. I know me eyes an' ears ain't what they used to be, but I've picked up one or two references to tits, perverts and culs on this thread , but no Simmonses.

There was a a short discussion about how well he was playing and everyone agreed. However, most felt that he might not be big enough to play the Billy role.

Billy is unique with what he contributes to a team but Simmons offers something different - perhaps more in the style of Kieran Read? (Personally, I would rather have a player like Read than Billy at 8 for England )
His stats for metres gained and tackles made are impressive and if he continues to shine, he'll be difficult to ignore.

[Stom]

Hmm. I know me eyes an' ears ain't what they used to be, but I've picked up one or two references to tits, perverts and culs on this thread , but no Simmonses.

There was a a short discussion about how well he was playing and everyone agreed. However, most felt that he might not be big enough to play the Billy role.

Billy is unique with what he contributes to a team but Simmons offers something different - perhaps more in the style of Kieran Read? (Personally, I would rather have a player like Read than Billy at 8 for England )
His stats for metres gained and tackles made are impressive and if he continues to shine, he'll be difficult to ignore.

The worry is that in a different system, and with better defenses to contend with, he would be shown up. Plus, his defensive work perhaps needs a bit of improvement for international rugby. But he is a bright prospect, that's for sure. But I see him more like Hooper than Read, tbh.

[Mikey Brown]

One prospect I find potentially interesting in the absence of Vunipola is using a combo of the Simmons/Armband/Underhill/Clifford type 7/8s who are good on the ball and decent carriers, but not quite the heavyweight carriers of BV/Hughes.

Clifford for example I was really keen to see back at 8 this season, but the more I think about it he is at his best supporting a primary carrier (Luamanu currently, but hopefully Chisholm will come back and develop in to an England contender at some stage) and being able to pick and choose with his linking/carrying play. I could see all of the above players offering something like this if we're persisting with a big, physical openside. I've seen Underhill a couple of times look really threatening carrying the ball for the Ospreys, but we're yet to see if he can do that for Bath.

Basically I think we could spread the load a bit if we were to look at having a more free-roaming, linking 8 like Read.

[Stom]

One prospect I find potentially interesting in the absence of Vunipola is using a combo of the Simmons/Armband/Underhill/Clifford type 7/8s who are good on the ball and decent carriers, but not quite the heavyweight carriers of BV/Hughes.

Clifford for example I was really keen to see back at 8 this season, but the more I think about it he is at his best supporting a primary carrier (Luamanu currently, but hopefully Chisholm will come back and develop in to an England contender at some stage) and being able to pick and choose with his linking/carrying play. I could see all of the above players offering something like this if we're persisting with a big, physical openside. I've seen Underhill a couple of times look really threatening carrying the ball for the Ospreys, but we're yet to see if he can do that for Bath.

Basically I think we could spread the load a bit if we were to look at having a more free-roaming, linking 8 like Read.

The problem for personal floatation device is that he's almost 30 already...He won't make it until 2023, and he's not going to displace Robshaw. So he's at best 3rd choice at 6.

But I agree in general. If we can add more, and more effective, carrying from the flanks, we can develop our attacking game plan. I think Underhill can be one of those options, can Simmonds develop into the other?

[Timbo]

One prospect I find potentially interesting in the absence of Vunipola is using a combo of the Simmons/Armband/Underhill/Clifford type 7/8s who are good on the ball and decent carriers, but not quite the heavyweight carriers of BV/Hughes.

Clifford for example I was really keen to see back at 8 this season, but the more I think about it he is at his best supporting a primary carrier (Luamanu currently, but hopefully Chisholm will come back and develop in to an England contender at some stage) and being able to pick and choose with his linking/carrying play. I could see all of the above players offering something like this if we're persisting with a big, physical openside. I've seen Underhill a couple of times look really threatening carrying the ball for the Ospreys, but we're yet to see if he can do that for Bath.

Basically I think we could spread the load a bit if we were to look at having a more free-roaming, linking 8 like Read.

The problem for personal floatation device is that he's almost 30 already...He won't make it until 2023, and he's not going to displace Robshaw. So he's at best 3rd choice at 6.

But I agree in general. If we can add more, and more effective, carrying from the flanks, we can develop our attacking game plan. I think Underhill can be one of those options, can Simmonds develop into the other?

Armand has only just turned 28, according to wiki his birthday was 2 days ago. Don't think it's an age thing, Eddie just don't fancy him for whatever reason.

[Mikey Brown]

I wouldn't begrudge going with the other guys based on age, but Almond could certainly be a good option in 2019, even if not much further.

[Mikey Brown]

Basically I'd rather see any of;

7. Underhill, Simmonds, Armand, Clifford, Curry, Curry, Kvesic
8. Hughes, Clifford, Armand, Simmonds

...before seeing Haskell back.

[Mellsblue]

Almond

Not sure if you did this on purpose or not, but it made me laugh so loud half the office turned round to stare at me.

[Mellsblue]

One prospect I find potentially interesting in the absence of Vunipola is using a combo of the Simmons/Armband/Underhill/Clifford type 7/8s who are good on the ball and decent carriers, but not quite the heavyweight carriers of BV/Hughes.

Clifford for example I was really keen to see back at 8 this season, but the more I think about it he is at his best supporting a primary carrier (Luamanu currently, but hopefully Chisholm will come back and develop in to an England contender at some stage) and being able to pick and choose with his linking/carrying play. I could see all of the above players offering something like this if we're persisting with a big, physical openside. I've seen Underhill a couple of times look really threatening carrying the ball for the Ospreys, but we're yet to see if he can do that for Bath.

Basically I think we could spread the load a bit if we were to look at having a more free-roaming, linking 8 like Read.

My hope when Billy was last out was that we'd use the opportunity to look at a different type of carrier at 8. Billy is a freak and will be almost impossible to replicate.

[Digby]

What on? How to combine the facial hair of a 16 year old with the face of a 46 year old?

That was my point at the time. Lancaster asked him to address the squad during his first year as coach. We had the most pointless argument about it at the time. Diggers and M Brown were in danger of going down the same cul de sac.

I appreciate it. The Neville comment completely threw me off.

As wrong as I know it is I'm struggling not to go back to it. I still can't quite wrap my head around whether he thinks that Quins themselves are going to view this game as a dud, because obviously there's no way they'll win the league. If any of these guys actually thought that way there would be no point in having a league in the first place.

If Jones is expecting any of his players to share that mindset, then they're simply not worth having.

The query about whether Brown should have played is for England given their paying for the EPS. What Quins make of the game isn't immaterial, but if Quins went to England and said this is a massive game for us, one that's key to our season I have my doubts England would believe them, and given Quins' last few seasons I couldn't blame them. So putting to one side what Quins think of this game the query is whether England see Brown as a key player, and whether that being the case they would/should be looking to withdraw a player who isn't fit to train from a match which isn't going to make if any difference to Quins season? And again I don't think England should, but if they're paying for the EPS it shifts the conversation, and again where it a big game for Quins such as if Quins made if out of their Champions Cup group into a quarter final I'd think it more reasonable to take a risk, round 4 of the AP with England paying for player control, well that starts to come into a conversation about when and if England stand a player down.

[Puja]

Basically I'd rather see any of;

7. Underhill, Simmonds, Armand, Clifford, Curry, Curry, Kvesic
8. Hughes, Clifford, Armand, Simmonds

...before seeing Haskell back.

Is Kvesic injured, or just not fancied by Exeter right now?

Puja

[twitchy]

Exeter use simmonds in a specific way at 8. England would end up using him running at a static brick wall of bigger blokes and then he would get knocked back/turned over and never selected again.

[Mikey Brown]

Didn't hurt Hughes (for some reason) getting knocked back about 10 games in a row, but I totally agree with the principal. I think the whole idea of this conversation is how England use some of these guys (that aren't Billy) in a more effective way.

On Kvesic, I feel like he was on the Exe bench the first few rounds. Not sure if he just didn't make an impression or is not fully fit.

Digby I get what you're saying a bit more now, it was rather confused by the talk of the game being irrelevant and whether Quins are "interesting" or not, and I'm also interested how much control Jones actually has. I don't really know the details of the injury throughout the week (oddly enough) but perhaps you do. I guess what I was really arguing with was the idea that Jones could justify labelling the game as irrelevant, for a team desperate to finally show some consistent form, but obviously he has to be able to draw a line somewhere.

[jngf]

One prospect I find potentially interesting in the absence of Vunipola is using a combo of the Simmons/Armband/Underhill/Clifford type 7/8s who are good on the ball and decent carriers, but not quite the heavyweight carriers of BV/Hughes.

Clifford for example I was really keen to see back at 8 this season, but the more I think about it he is at his best supporting a primary carrier (Luamanu currently, but hopefully Chisholm will come back and develop in to an England contender at some stage) and being able to pick and choose with his linking/carrying play. I could see all of the above players offering something like this if we're persisting with a big, physical openside. I've seen Underhill a couple of times look really threatening carrying the ball for the Ospreys, but we're yet to see if he can do that for Bath.

Basically I think we could spread the load a bit if we were to look at having a more free-roaming, linking 8 like Read.

A further slightly different approach again to the No.8 role, would be to convert one of our top four locks to it, in this case I'm thinking Itoje so that that we picked a back 5 along the lines of:

4. Launchbury 5. Kruis 6. Lawes 7. Underhill/Curry 8.Itoje

This is not my own preferred approach but it's a feasible option (if Robshaw were injured for example ) and gives us 4 quality line out jumpers.

[Mikey Brown]

Puja, this one has your name written all over it.

[Puja]

Puja, this one has your name written all over it.

You say that, but I've actually got a lot fewer objections to this than I do to shovelling a lock to blindside. 8 and 4 share an awful lot of similar skills and there's less of a loose responsibility for an 8 than for a 6.

That's not to say that I have *no* objections, of course. 8 is a specialist position and, especially with more scrums staying up and the requirement for an 8 to pick from the locks' feet, control at the base could make the difference between winning a scrum and losing a scrum.

Plus, I would not shift Itoje if we had to pick a lock to move. He's world class at 4 - why are we trying to make him average elsewhere?! Ewels perhaps.

Puja