Quins vs Gloucester

[Stom]

Smith finished what was a scrappy game with 10 points and two missed kicks but he showed enough glimpses of the talent that has already the eye of Eddie Jones, the England coach. “I spoke to him last week about controlling the game and [today] he was excellent,” added Kingston. “Bear in mind he didn’t train all week, that’s why he didn’t start. He couldn’t train until Friday, because he was on HIA, so to come on 15 minutes into the game, yes he missed two pots at goal, but he showed unbelievable composure for a man of that age.”

Does this sound a bit dodgy to anyone else?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... tch-report

Indeed. But I thought the criteria was that, when they come off for a head knock, they have to sit out x days of training, at which point they're given an HIA. If they pass, they're good to go.

And judging by Smith's reaction as he was being taken off, he may not have even failed his HIA on the pitch...just taken off as a precaution and logged as a head injury as that would give Quins more flexibility on the subs later in the game?

Dunno.

It's all got a bit too complicated for me.

[Which Tyler]

Indeed. But I thought the criteria was that, when they come off for a head knock, they have to sit out x days of training, at which point they're given an HIA. If they pass, they're good to go.

And judging by Smith's reaction as he was being taken off, he may not have even failed his HIA on the pitch...just taken off as a precaution and logged as a head injury as that would give Quins more flexibility on the subs later in the game?

Dunno.

It's all got a bit too complicated for me.

Nope - if you fail the HIA you have to go through the Graduated Return To Play Protocols - which take a minimum of 5 days to complete.
Stage one is to be symptom free for 24 hours doing sod all (no reading, no TV, no computer games etc)
Stage two is to be symptom free for 24 hours after doing light aerobic exercise (walking, swimming etc - low intensity)
Stage three is to be symptom free for 24 hours hours after doing sport-specific exercise (passing drills, straight and jinking running etc)
Stage four is to be symptom free for 24 hours hours after doing non-contact training
Stage five is to be symptom free for 24 hours hours after doing full contact training

Juniors have to take twice as long for each stage; amateurs have to add 2 weeks symptom free before starting these protocols (as they don't have the professional level of care and assessment)

[Cameo]

Indeed. But I thought the criteria was that, when they come off for a head knock, they have to sit out x days of training, at which point they're given an HIA. If they pass, they're good to go.

And judging by Smith's reaction as he was being taken off, he may not have even failed his HIA on the pitch...just taken off as a precaution and logged as a head injury as that would give Quins more flexibility on the subs later in the game?

Dunno.

It's all got a bit too complicated for me.

Nope - if you fail the HIA you have to go through the Graduated Return To Play Protocols - which take a minimum of 5 days to complete.
Stage one is to be symptom free for 24 hours doing sod all (no reading, no TV, no computer games etc)
Stage two is to be symptom free for 24 hours after doing light aerobic exercise (walking, swimming etc - low intensity)
Stage three is to be symptom free for 24 hours hours after doing sport-specific exercise (passing drills, straight and jonking running etc)
Stage four is to be symptom free for 24 hours hours after doing non-contact training
Stage five is to be symptom free for 24 hours hours after doing full contact training

Juniors have to take twice as long for each stage; amateurs have to add 2 weeks symptom free before starting these protocols (as they don't have the professional level of care and assessment)

Thanks, never seen it set out clearly like that before. Just one question on the amateurs - how does that work for people who don't train much or at all. I know plenty of people who barely do exercise outside rugby matches (let alone contact). Stages 4 and 5 seem unlikely for them. Is there any guidance other than the old 3 weeks?

[Which Tyler]

The protocols acknowledge that the amateurs won't have the support or knowledge base to go through this stuff properly - in part, hence the extra 2 weeks they get at the beginning.

In theory they need to be signed off as symptom free after their 2 weeks off - and any healthcare pro can do that (so club physio, local chiropractor, NHS outpatients), and then signed off by GP / specialist after they've gone through the 5 steps. Bear in mind though - they're going to be self-reporting that they've done the stages, and that they've been symptom free; and they'll be self-reporting that to the GP who won't be a neurologist in the first place. Oh, and then the patient will be self-reporting to the club that they've done all of that (a GP's letter is not necessary)
Basically I think it's acknowledged that patients lie, and that there's nothing can really be done about that; but the authorities have covered their arses as much as possible, kept it at 3 week minimum, and educated the patient not to lie in the first place. If the patient still wants to play anyway, then the risk is on them.

ETA: Found the latest protocol PDF: http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document ... eutral.pdf

[Stom]

Indeed. But I thought the criteria was that, when they come off for a head knock, they have to sit out x days of training, at which point they're given an HIA. If they pass, they're good to go.

And judging by Smith's reaction as he was being taken off, he may not have even failed his HIA on the pitch...just taken off as a precaution and logged as a head injury as that would give Quins more flexibility on the subs later in the game?

Dunno.

It's all got a bit too complicated for me.

Nope - if you fail the HIA you have to go through the Graduated Return To Play Protocols - which take a minimum of 5 days to complete.
Stage one is to be symptom free for 24 hours doing sod all (no reading, no TV, no computer games etc)
Stage two is to be symptom free for 24 hours after doing light aerobic exercise (walking, swimming etc - low intensity)
Stage three is to be symptom free for 24 hours hours after doing sport-specific exercise (passing drills, straight and jinking running etc)
Stage four is to be symptom free for 24 hours hours after doing non-contact training
Stage five is to be symptom free for 24 hours hours after doing full contact training

Juniors have to take twice as long for each stage; amateurs have to add 2 weeks symptom free before starting these protocols (as they don't have the professional level of care and assessment)

Well, close-ish

[Digby]

Hands up who thinks juniors (and really even seniors) aren't on their computers during stage one?

[Raggs]

Hands up who thinks juniors (and really even seniors) aren't on their computers during stage one?

And amateurs not on computers for 2 weeks...

[Banquo]

Hands up who thinks juniors (and really even seniors) aren't on their computers during stage one?

And amateurs not on computers for 2 weeks...

explains some of the posting on here ?

[Mellsblue]

Hands up who thinks juniors (and really even seniors) aren't on their computers during stage one?

And amateurs not on computers for 2 weeks...

explains some of the posting on here ?

Pretty hard to blame that solely on concussion. Early onset dementia seems more plausible.

[Gloskarlos]

Hands up who thinks juniors (and really even seniors) aren't on their computers during stage one?

I coach my Son's U 10's team along with 5 others - we have all done the RFU online head case course - and advised all players and parents to do the same - there are targeted courses for each detailing what each section of the rugby community should really know....

I would hope this is being encouraged everywhere but would not be surprised if it isn't

[Digby]

Hands up who thinks juniors (and really even seniors) aren't on their computers during stage one?

I coach my Son's U 10's team along with 5 others - we have all done the RFU online head case course - and advised all players and parents to do the same - there are targeted courses for each detailing what each section of the rugby community should really know....

I would hope this is being encouraged everywhere but would not be surprised if it isn't

Some chance at age 10 that parents will take it seriously and limit access to phones, tablets, laptops and game stations and even TV. But go up 1-2 years and even reporting back to parents there's been an issue isn't always done properly, even before it'll be really hard to stop a 14 year old going online

[kk67]

I coach my Son's U 10's team along with 5 others - we have all done the RFU online head case course - and advised all players and parents to do the same - there are targeted courses for each detailing what each section of the rugby community should really know....

I would hope this is being encouraged everywhere but would not be surprised if it isn't

The problem seems to be getting all the participants acting on the information they've been given. The RFU, in fairness, have been pushing this issue for awhile. They've been like a DFS sale for 4/5 years.

[jngf]

I would have started Slater.

I was wondering about that. He got a glowing write up in the Rugby Post.

He did look very handy from the bench. I completely understand Glaws starting the local lads until he proves himself, but I think it's only a matter of time before one of Savage or Ludlam is pushed out of the XV.

Puja

Puja did you mean Ludlow (rather than Ludlam) there? Incidentally they both play 7 and are of similar build so how do we rate Ludlow compared to Ludlum and the other up and coming premiership opensides?

[Which Tyler]

The problem seems to be getting all the participants acting on the information they've been given. The RFU, in fairness, have been pushing this issue for awhile. They've been like a DFS sale for 4/5 years.

To really push the message home, we need the pro.s to lead by example; not to simply ignore the protocols just because.

[Puja]

I was wondering about that. He got a glowing write up in the Rugby Post.

He did look very handy from the bench. I completely understand Glaws starting the local lads until he proves himself, but I think it's only a matter of time before one of Savage or Ludlam is pushed out of the XV.

Puja

Puja did you mean Ludlow (rather than Ludlam) there? Incidentally they both play 7 and are of similar build so how do we rate Ludlow compared to Ludlum and the other up and coming premiership opensides?

I did mean Low rather than Lam - slip of the keyboard. I was under the impression that Low was a 6 by preference though?

Puja

[Scrumhead]

He did look very handy from the bench. I completely understand Glaws starting the local lads until he proves himself, but I think it's only a matter of time before one of Savage or Ludlam is pushed out of the XV.

Puja

Puja did you mean Ludlow (rather than Ludlam) there? Incidentally they both play 7 and are of similar build so how do we rate Ludlow compared to Ludlum and the other up and coming premiership opensides?

I did mean Low rather than Lam - slip of the keyboard. I was under the impression that Low was a 6 by preference though?

Puja

As was I. Ludlow played 7 against Quins, but I think Ackermann Snr is still tinkering and it was part of an ill-advised strategy of playing 3 big (ish) guys in the same back row with Clarke and Ackermann Jnr.

They looked a lot better/more balanced against Exeter with Rowan at 7 and Ludlow at 6.

[Scrumhead]

Incidentally, I wonder what Ackermann makes of Ben Morgan? He started him against Exeter but dropped him from the 23 against Quins.

Obviously Gloucester we're pretty poor against Quins so it'll be interesting to see what Ackermann does for the next game.

I've always liked Morgan, I just wish he could be more consistent. At his best, I think he's a very good player, but at his worst, he's anonymous. Sometimes I wonder whether he just needs the right coach to get in to his head. A bit late at 28 though ...

[Timbo]

Morgan has a slight injury I think, not dropped.

[Raggs]

The backrows job in the Exeter game was made significantly easier by having two monstrously large centres.

[Mikey Brown]

Hmm. Large centres you say? Tell me more about this intriguing concept.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Hands up who thinks juniors (and really even seniors) aren't on their computers during stage one?

And amateurs not on computers for 2 weeks...

Back to buying magazines instead of 'browsing'

[Oakboy]

And amateurs not on computers for 2 weeks...

explains some of the posting on here ?

Pretty hard to blame that solely on concussion. Early onset dementia seems more plausible.

I was going to post something similar but I couldn't remember if I already had.

[Banquo]

explains some of the posting on here ?

Pretty hard to blame that solely on concussion. Early onset dementia seems more plausible.

I was going to post something similar but I couldn't remember if I already had.

[Puja]

explains some of the posting on here ?

Pretty hard to blame that solely on concussion. Early onset dementia seems more plausible.

I was going to post something similar but I couldn't remember if I already had.

Never stops me.

Puja

[Puja]

explains some of the posting on here ?

Pretty hard to blame that solely on concussion. Early onset dementia seems more plausible.

I was going to post something similar but I couldn't remember if I already had.

Never stops me.

Puja