Donny osmond wrote:Didnt see it but seemingly Elsie has just been on sky news stating that iScot would apply for EU membership, so that seems to put that one to bed. One of the big questions now is whether the million Scots who voted to leave the EU will support independence or not.
You could also look at it the other way too, how many people who voted to remain part of the UK would still want vote that way now he goal posts have been substantially moved.
Embra would be a good test of that. Majority of my city voted to remain in both... 74% for the EU.
Besides, surely this doesn't matter, the Tory prime minster, with her mandate of a couple of hundred Torys has told us we can't.
Stones of granite wrote:
If my understanding is correct (and it may not be), the downsides that could be avoided by an independent Scotland joining EFTA (EEA) rather than full EU membership are:
1. We would retain the ability to make trade agreements with non-EU countries. This would prevent trading issues with a fully brexited rUK.
2. We would not be forced into joining the Euro. Although, on reflection, the Euro does seem to work for the vast majority of member countries.
3. Membership cost would probably be significantly lower
4. We would not be bound by the Common Fisheries Policy, which would have the double advantage of placating the Fishing lobby while simultaneously showing the Spanish the stink-finger.
How do you think the proceeds of the fishing grounds and oil fields will be split up following Scottish Independence? Likely be a bun fight if you ask me.
The boundaries are already settled. The Scottish Adjacent Boundary Waters Order was enacted as a Statutory Instrument by the UK Government at the same time as the Scotland Act which enabled devolution.
I think the bigger problem would be paying for a navy to stop the Spaniards and everyone else just sailing in to take what they will
Why not resurrect and build on the Auld Alliance? Instead of declaring independence and then seeking entry into the EU, Scotland should become part of France and thus remain in the EU regardless of what the rump UK does.
Although the Frogs generally like to keep a tight rein on regions and overseas departments, I reckon that Scotland could negotiate almost complete autonomy under the nominal suzerainty of the French President in return for the sheer Lolz at the Rosbifs' expense France would get.
As a bonus, Glasgow and Edinburgh could join the Top 14.
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Dominating the SHMB
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Lizard wrote:Why not resurrect and build on the Auld Alliance? Instead of declaring independence and then seeking entry into the EU, Scotland should become part of France and thus remain in the EU regardless of what the rump UK does.
Although the Frogs generally like to keep a tight rein on regions and overseas departments, I reckon that Scotland could negotiate almost complete autonomy under the nominal suzerainty of the French President in return for the sheer Lolz at the Rosbifs' expense France would get.
As a bonus, Glasgow and Edinburgh could join the Top 14.
1... 2... 3...
But seriously, Top 14 doesnt look to be what it use to.
Not even going to mention how centralised France is
Donny osmond wrote:Didnt see it but seemingly Elsie has just been on sky news stating that iScot would apply for EU membership, so that seems to put that one to bed. One of the big questions now is whether the million Scots who voted to leave the EU will support independence or not.
You could also look at it the other way too, how many people who voted to remain part of the UK would still want vote that way now he goal posts have been substantially moved.
Embra would be a good test of that. Majority of my city voted to remain in both... 74% for the EU.
Besides, surely this doesn't matter, the Tory prime minster, with her mandate of a couple of hundred Torys has told us we can't.
Saw some research that suggested the number if people switching sides was about equal. I.e. just as many pro-indy voters would now vote to stay in the uk in order to leave eu as anti-indy voters would now vote to leave the uk to stay in the eu. I'll see if I can look it up later.
Speaking of later, and much as I hate to defend Theresa May, she hasn't said cant at all.
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.
So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.
The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.
So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.
The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."
Fair enough I guess. Can't understand that to be honest, then again, it's becoming increasingly obvious to me that I no longer agree with vast swaths of the voting public on this planet.
Martin McGuinness, the former Irish Republican Army commander who laid down his arms and turned peacemaker to help end Northern Ireland's 30-year conflict, died on Tuesday after a decade as deputy first minister of the British province.
Martin McGuinness, the former Irish Republican Army commander who laid down his arms and turned peacemaker to help end Northern Ireland's 30-year conflict, died on Tuesday after a decade as deputy first minister of the British province.
"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.
So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.
The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."
Fair enough I guess. Can't understand that to be honest, then again, it's becoming increasingly obvious to me that I no longer agree with vast swaths of the voting public on this planet.
My dig at Theresa May stands.
Its the Jim Sillars crowd innit?
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.
So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.
The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."
I'd have thought that if we learned one thing last year it was to not take polling too seriously.
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.
So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.
The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."
I'd have thought that if we learned one thing last year it was to not take polling too seriously.
Some lessons, it seems, are all too easily forgotten.
"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.
So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.
The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."
I'd have thought that if we learned one thing last year it was to not take polling too seriously.
Some lessons, it seems, are all too easily forgotten.
Depends which polls you read. Lynton Crosby's and Vote Leave's were pretty accurate.
Stones of granite wrote:
Some lessons, it seems, are all too easily forgotten.
Depends which polls you read. Lynton Crosby's and Vote Leave's were pretty accurate.
Lynton Crosby had a poll? Got a link?
No, sorry. I'm fairly certain that he didn't make them public. He didn't work specifically for either side in the referendum but did advise friends/ex-colleagues in both camps. He was so underwhelmed by the pollster working for Stronger In that he undertook his own polls. As far as I know, Vote Leave kept there's under wraps too as they thought being the underdog was a plus.
Mellsblue wrote:
Depends which polls you read. Lynton Crosby's and Vote Leave's were pretty accurate.
Lynton Crosby had a poll? Got a link?
No, sorry. I'm fairly certain that he didn't make them public. He didn't work specifically for either side in the referendum but did advise friends/ex-colleagues in both camps. He was so underwhelmed by the pollster working for Stronger In that he undertook his own polls. As far as I know, Vote Leave kept there's under wraps too as they thought being the underdog was a plus.
So the people who brought us £350 million to the NHS say they knew all along they were going to win. Aye. Sure.
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
Stones of granite wrote:
Lynton Crosby had a poll? Got a link?
No, sorry. I'm fairly certain that he didn't make them public. He didn't work specifically for either side in the referendum but did advise friends/ex-colleagues in both camps. He was so underwhelmed by the pollster working for Stronger In that he undertook his own polls. As far as I know, Vote Leave kept there's under wraps too as they thought being the underdog was a plus.
So the people who brought us £350 million to the NHS say they knew all along they were going to win. Aye. Sure.
Now c'mon, we've all seen the headlines about how the nhs is struggling to work out what to spend all the additional money on once we leave.
Stones of granite wrote:
Lynton Crosby had a poll? Got a link?
No, sorry. I'm fairly certain that he didn't make them public. He didn't work specifically for either side in the referendum but did advise friends/ex-colleagues in both camps. He was so underwhelmed by the pollster working for Stronger In that he undertook his own polls. As far as I know, Vote Leave kept there's under wraps too as they thought being the underdog was a plus.
So the people who brought us £350 million to the NHS say they knew all along they were going to win. Aye. Sure.
No. At that point they knew they were getting hammered on the economy and needed something big to change the conversation. During the run in they knew it was close, according to their polling anyway.
Stones of granite wrote:
Lynton Crosby had a poll? Got a link?
No, sorry. I'm fairly certain that he didn't make them public. He didn't work specifically for either side in the referendum but did advise friends/ex-colleagues in both camps. He was so underwhelmed by the pollster working for Stronger In that he undertook his own polls. As far as I know, Vote Leave kept there's under wraps too as they thought being the underdog was a plus.
So the people who brought us £350 million to the NHS say they knew all along they were going to win. Aye. Sure.
Im pretty confident that Boris did not expect to win. A close loss with credentials secured on the Tory right would have been his dream result.
My mates missus who voted leave reckons nobody was fooled by the 350 million a week bus. She is an idiot though.
The look on her face when article 50 is triggered and the real shit storm begins as she gets nothing that she voted for becomes apparent will be amazing.
Sandydragon wrote:
Im pretty confident that Boris did not expect to win. A close loss with credentials secured on the Tory right would have been his dream result.
Don't conflate Boris with Vote Leave. Boris may have been the queen but others were moving him around the chess board.
When he first declared I think he expected to lose, albeit with the knowledge that he became London Mayor swimming against the political tide. In fact, a lot around him told him it was career suicide as he'd lose and the Notting Hill set would keep him at arms length indefinitely.
See this is what gets me, I may be wrong (often am), but I don't believe it was stated anywhere by Vote Leave that they would give £350 mill a week to the NHS.
bruce wrote:See this is what gets me, I may be wrong (often am), but I don't believe it was stated anywhere by Vote Leave that they would give £350 mill a week to the NHS.
"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.
So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.
The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."
I'd have thought that if we learned one thing last year it was to not take polling too seriously.
Some lessons, it seems, are all too easily forgotten.
2014 Indy ref polling was pretty accurate. And if we're ignoring all polls, what else do we have to look at public opinion? Dramatic headlines aren't gospel, gents.
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
