Should Israel be banned from Rugby

[Digby]

Lots of teams should be banned from sports. Everyone who persecutes a population as does Israel, those who don't accord equality to homosexuals, and those who for instance refuse to give women the freedom to play sports and/or to play sports in sensible clothes. Probably not going to happen though

[rowan]

Lots of teams should be banned from sports. Everyone who persecutes a population as does Israel, those who don't accord equality to homosexuals, and those who for instance refuse to give women the freedom to play sports and/or to play sports in sensible clothes. Probably not going to happen though

You sound exactly like the Apartheid apologists of the 1980s (or at least those who defended sporting contacts with SA). & I'm old enough to remember

Yeh, Israel was at it back then too, and there was a genocide in Timor that no one seemed too bothered by. & now you've got NATO & the Saudis bombing the Middle East to smithereens. But about the most useless thing anyone can possibly do is say 'Why pick on one country?'

[rowan]

Way to answer his question. What's the distinction being drawn? Why pick on Israel only? Why not other states that openly persecute a group of people identifiable by a common feature, like specific ethnic groups or members of the LGBT community?

You, also, sound exactly like the Apartheid apologists of the 1980s (or at least those who defended sporting contacts with SA). & I'm old enough to remember

Yeh, Israel was at it back then too, and there was a genocide in Timor that no one seemed too bothered by. & now you've got NATO & the Saudis bombing the Middle East to smithereens. But about the most useless thing anyone can possibly do is say 'Why pick on one country?'

[rowan]

But if you want to ask a sensible question, and simply ask 'Why Israel? the answer is perfectly obvious: It is carrying out illegal colonization of Palestinian territories, forcing its impoverished native population to live in an open air prison, while its latest massacre of the natives a couple of years ago claimed over 2000 lives, its policies are racist and tantamount to Apartheid, and its politicians openly support the murderers of indigenous peoples. But you knew that. You're simply being belligerent for the sake of it.

[rowan]

Tell that to the Western Papuan natives, the women in Saudi Arabia (plus a multitude of others) or the LGBT community in your beloved Russia. Or hell, the refugees that wash up over in Australia that have now found themselves in shitholes like Christmas Island or Nauri camps.

Or maybe you're just being an awfully defensive baby. Literally no one has said "leave Israel alone," other than within your imagination, apparently.

Again, you parrot the catch-cries of the Apartheid apologists in the 1980s (or at least those who supported sporting contacts with SA at the time). It is also interesting that you have cited some of NATO's closest allies in your attempts to deflect attention from the issue - with the exception of Russia, which you evidently view with a degree of socially ingrained prejudice. &, no, nothing defensive about addressing the points that are raised on a thread I personally started.


"Or I could also just say "you sound off like some buttass who only takes up trendy causes that are in vogue because it helps with their street cred or whatever, without an ounce of originality or insight, and all opinions held are merely regurgitated from elsewhere."

Or I could wait for you to provide a satisfactory response to "why is Israel being singled out here, when we maintain contacts with other shitty countries?""

So you regard Israel's crimes against the Palestinians as a 'trendy' cause. No doubt you would also have judged Apartheid in South Africa as a 'trendy' cause too, then. There were plenty who did, but you won't get any of them to admit it now - because they've been proved completely and utterly wrong, and they know it. I've already responded to the question of 'why Israel is being singled out' by pointing out that posing such a question is an utterly useless stance to take. I've also answered the question of why Israel at all (a more sensible question but which wasn't actually posed) by listing the foremost of their crimes against humanity.

[rowan]

Criticising the Russian government for their prejudice against the Russian LGBT community equates to "ingrained prejudice," does it? Hahaha, holy shit.

Yes, and no one is saying "Israel shouldn't be held accountable," the question being posed is "why just them?"

No, my comment was in response to your silly 'beloved' comment, and your ingrained prejudice against Russia has been evident on many occasions before, of course. Incidentally, if you want to talk about singling countries out, how is it that you chose Russia as your example, with prejudice against the LGBT community widespread throughout Africa, Asia, Central America and the Caribbean, and even exists within some EU and Latin American nations? So why just Russia, Cashead? GOTCHA!

[canta_brian]

Criticising the Russian government for their prejudice against the Russian LGBT community equates to "ingrained prejudice," does it? Hahaha, holy shit.

Yes, and no one is saying "Israel shouldn't be held accountable," the question being posed is "why just them?"

No, my comment was in response to your silly 'beloved' comment, and your ingrained prejudice against Russia has been evident on many occasions before, of course. Incidentally, if you want to talk about singling countries out, how is it that you chose Russia as your example, with prejudice against the LGBT community widespread throughout Africa, Asia, Central America and the Caribbean, and even exists within some EU and Latin American nations? So why just Russia, Cashead? GOTCHA!

Anyone who holds a different opinion to you is accused of playing the man. Your responses to cashead on this thread just show what an utter hypocrite you are.

[rowan]

Criticising the Russian government for their prejudice against the Russian LGBT community equates to "ingrained prejudice," does it? Hahaha, holy shit.

Yes, and no one is saying "Israel shouldn't be held accountable," the question being posed is "why just them?"

No, my comment was in response to your silly 'beloved' comment, and your ingrained prejudice against Russia has been evident on many occasions before, of course. Incidentally, if you want to talk about singling countries out, how is it that you chose Russia as your example, with prejudice against the LGBT community widespread throughout Africa, Asia, Central America and the Caribbean, and even exists within some EU and Latin American nations? So why just Russia, Cashead? GOTCHA!

Anyone who holds a different opinion to you is accused of playing the man. Your responses to cashead on this thread just show what an utter hypocrite you are.

That in itself was an extremely hypocritical comment, Canta brian, which only exposes your own lack of integrity, judgement, maturity and morality. I have quite patiently and rationally respond to the same questions again and again, despite the fact some of them are really quite pointless - and this on a thread which I personally started for debate in the topic.

[rowan]

But, again, if you want to ask a sensible question rather than just create diversions with silly ad hominems, and simply ask: 'Why Israel? the answer is perfectly obvious: It is carrying out illegal colonization of Palestinian territories, forcing its impoverished native population to live in an open air prison, while its latest massacre of the natives a couple of years ago claimed over 2000 lives, its policies are racist and tantamount to Apartheid, and its politicians openly support the murderers of indigenous peoples.

Classic:

[morepork]

Let's play a game. See how many different threads you can use the phrase"...which only exposes your own lack of...." in your penultimate thin-skinned last word.

[rowan]

It would be defined by how many threads the Russophobe brigade decided to derail with ad hominems - as you've just done youself, once again.

[morepork]

Stop being a fanny. You are an easy target.

[J Dory]

Rowan and Cashead sitting up a tree, k...i...s...s...i...n...g.

[morepork]

Dyslexics......that is NOT fisting.

[rowan]

[WaspInWales]

Considering the serious of the scandal, I'm extremely surprised it hasn't been given more airtime or column inches.

It's done and dusted...can't even find the story on the beeb. I'm sure I could find a link to it from Google or somewhere else but it's not on the main BBC page, UK page, middle east or politics pages.

We've had months of non-stop headlines on Russia allegedly manipulating democracy and here's Israel caught red handed trying to fwck with our political system for their gain and not a peep.

Fucking disgraceful.

[rowan]

[Digby]

Considering the serious of the scandal, I'm extremely surprised it hasn't been given more airtime or column inches.

It's done and dusted...can't even find the story on the beeb. I'm sure I could find a link to it from Google or somewhere else but it's not on the main BBC page, UK page, middle east or politics pages.

We've had months of non-stop headlines on Russia allegedly manipulating democracy and here's Israel caught red handed trying to fwck with our political system for their gain and not a peep.

Fucking disgraceful.

Two issues with the link, one it's facebook which granted I might only look at once or twice a year but does seem to be full of drivel, and then George Galloway, which means it'll not only be drivel but vile drivel, there's sputem to be engaged with before thinking of listening to a man who being kind is an appalling waste of oxygen.

[rowan]

But all you have done is question the sources - ie attacked the messenger. You haven't dealt with any of the content. At the end of the day, what weight do some dude's comments on a message board hold

[Sandydragon]

Considering the serious of the scandal, I'm extremely surprised it hasn't been given more airtime or column inches.

It's done and dusted...can't even find the story on the beeb. I'm sure I could find a link to it from Google or somewhere else but it's not on the main BBC page, UK page, middle east or politics pages.

We've had months of non-stop headlines on Russia allegedly manipulating democracy and here's Israel caught red handed trying to fwck with our political system for their gain and not a peep.

Fucking disgraceful.

Precisely what is the scandal? An Israeli diplomat is caught talking shyte. He is sacked by the Israeli Foreign Service who apologise for one of their staff being a cretin. Do actual agents of the intelligence services go around blabbing to people they hardly know, or are they just a bit more secretive? This is of course embarrassing for the Israelis and people like Galloway will spin this into a huge conspiracy because most of their conspiracies involve Israel anyway. Ive heard plenty of ambitious but not too bright people gob off at social events, usually overplaying their importance. The difference here is that someone recorded it; this isn't proof of Israeli government policy.

There are a number of stories in the Guardian over this, including how Shai Masot was involved in setting up political groups in the UK. However, there is nothing inherently unlawful in that - there re plenty of pressure groups funding by all sorts of organisations. To compare this to an unlawful hack of a political party is pushing it.

[Sandydragon]

But all you have done is question the sources - ie attacked the messenger. You haven't dealt with any of the content. At the end of the day, what weight do some dude's comments on a message board hold

Ive just listened to it. Its Galloways opinion on the news that we have all read, one Israeli embassy official making unguarded comments over a few beers to people he thought he knew. I take Galloways opinion with a huge pinch of salt for the simple reason that he has form in this area and will jump on any bandwagon that involves slating Israel. I note that he talks about Israel subverting the British democratic process. This is an example of him pushing the limit of the evidence given that there is no evidence of any Israeli plot to undermine ministers. Its one bloke shooting his mouth off.

[rowan]

& of course your view would be the same had it been a Russian political officer ...

[WaspInWales]

Considering the serious of the scandal, I'm extremely surprised it hasn't been given more airtime or column inches.

It's done and dusted...can't even find the story on the beeb. I'm sure I could find a link to it from Google or somewhere else but it's not on the main BBC page, UK page, middle east or politics pages.

We've had months of non-stop headlines on Russia allegedly manipulating democracy and here's Israel caught red handed trying to fwck with our political system for their gain and not a peep.

Fucking disgraceful.

Precisely what is the scandal? An Israeli diplomat is caught talking shyte. He is sacked by the Israeli Foreign Service who apologise for one of their staff being a cretin. Do actual agents of the intelligence services go around blabbing to people they hardly know, or are they just a bit more secretive? This is of course embarrassing for the Israelis and people like Galloway will spin this into a huge conspiracy because most of their conspiracies involve Israel anyway. Ive heard plenty of ambitious but not too bright people gob off at social events, usually overplaying their importance. The difference here is that someone recorded it; this isn't proof of Israeli government policy.

There are a number of stories in the Guardian over this, including how Shai Masot was involved in setting up political groups in the UK. However, there is nothing inherently unlawful in that - there re plenty of pressure groups funding by all sorts of organisations. To compare this to an unlawful hack of a political party is pushing it.

Have to disagree with you there Sandy. I think it's a huge scandal and one that warrants further investigation.

Here we have a senior political officer of the Israeli embassy in London, an aide to the Israeli ambassador, plotting to remove British politicians that are considered 'hostile' to Israel.

Of course it's embarrassing for Israel and it's no surprise they apologised but I don't get why the matter is closed?!

Comparing this to the Democrat hacking claims is completely reasonable to me. It's on a different scale, but the intention appears to be the same. The US have claimed that Russia organised and carried out the hacks which has caused uproar in the western world..albeit without actually offering any real evidence linking the hacking to the Russian government. If the claims about Russia are true, it's an attack on another nation's democracy.

The Israeli official wanted to remove British politicians from government and we're supposed to just believe Regev's lame apology and claims that it isn't the view of the embassy and his government. Ludicrous.

[Digby]

Precisely what is the scandal? An Israeli diplomat is caught talking shyte. He is sacked by the Israeli Foreign Service who apologise for one of their staff being a cretin. Do actual agents of the intelligence services go around blabbing to people they hardly know, or are they just a bit more secretive? This is of course embarrassing for the Israelis and people like Galloway will spin this into a huge conspiracy because most of their conspiracies involve Israel anyway. Ive heard plenty of ambitious but not too bright people gob off at social events, usually overplaying their importance. The difference here is that someone recorded it; this isn't proof of Israeli government policy.

There are a number of stories in the Guardian over this, including how Shai Masot was involved in setting up political groups in the UK. However, there is nothing inherently unlawful in that - there re plenty of pressure groups funding by all sorts of organisations. To compare this to an unlawful hack of a political party is pushing it.

I hadn't realised that was all he was talking about, really it's a nothing story. We can quite easily do as we please in this area whether there's pressure from Israel or not, just as they too can do as they wish, as we see with the massive unlawful building of settlements no matter the pressure from others.

I'm not sure this is especially useful or insightful journalism either, we already knew Israel has a problem with other than unconditional support of their policies, and they're not going to get that from us. But broadly we muddle on as there isn't a sensible alternative.

[rowan]

Considering the serious of the scandal, I'm extremely surprised it hasn't been given more airtime or column inches.

It's done and dusted...can't even find the story on the beeb. I'm sure I could find a link to it from Google or somewhere else but it's not on the main BBC page, UK page, middle east or politics pages.

We've had months of non-stop headlines on Russia allegedly manipulating democracy and here's Israel caught red handed trying to fwck with our political system for their gain and not a peep.

Fucking disgraceful.

Precisely what is the scandal? An Israeli diplomat is caught talking shyte. He is sacked by the Israeli Foreign Service who apologise for one of their staff being a cretin. Do actual agents of the intelligence services go around blabbing to people they hardly know, or are they just a bit more secretive? This is of course embarrassing for the Israelis and people like Galloway will spin this into a huge conspiracy because most of their conspiracies involve Israel anyway. Ive heard plenty of ambitious but not too bright people gob off at social events, usually overplaying their importance. The difference here is that someone recorded it; this isn't proof of Israeli government policy.

There are a number of stories in the Guardian over this, including how Shai Masot was involved in setting up political groups in the UK. However, there is nothing inherently unlawful in that - there re plenty of pressure groups funding by all sorts of organisations. To compare this to an unlawful hack of a political party is pushing it.

Have to disagree with you there Sandy. I think it's a huge scandal and one that warrants further investigation.

Here we have a senior political officer of the Israeli embassy in London, an aide to the Israeli ambassador, plotting to remove British politicians that are considered 'hostile' to Israel.

Of course it's embarrassing for Israel and it's no surprise they apologised but I don't get why the matter is closed?!

Comparing this to the Democrat hacking claims is completely reasonable to me. It's on a different scale, but the intention appears to be the same. The US have claimed that Russia organised and carried out the hacks which has caused uproar in the western world..albeit without actually offering any real evidence linking the hacking to the Russian government. If the claims about Russia are true, it's an attack on another nation's democracy.

The Israeli official wanted to remove British politicians from government and we're supposed to just believe Regev's lame apology and claims that it isn't the view of the embassy and his government. Ludicrous.

Precisely. If this is a storm in a tea cup, then so are the hacking claims. The only difference is, the Israeli was caught red handed, so there's no question it happened.