Greatest All Blacks XV (pro era) - first five-eighth

[Lizard]

This is an impressive shortlist, any of whom could be regarded as an all-time great. Names that don't even make the shortlist include such highly regarded players as Beauden Barrett, Tony Brown, Steve Donald, Luke McAlister, Colin Slade and Nick Evans.

Nevertheless, it will be very hard to argue against DC. Barrett might eclipse him, but he's 81 test starts and 1193 points off the pace at the moment. Mehrtens was very influential but lacked some of the alround skill that saw Spencer edge him out on occasion. Also, Mehrts duffed the drop goal that would have won us RWC1995.

[rowan]

Where's the 'other' option? I'm voting for Beauden Barrett!

[Lizard]

Where's the 'other' option? I'm voting for Beauden Barrett!

Oops. Fixed now, sorry.

Do you really think that a bloke who can't kick goals and has had half a season as the first choice is greater than a bloke generally regarded as the world's best for about a decade?

[rowan]

Well, Carter and Mehtens weren't bad, as far as they go, but I think Barrett will indeed eclipse them both. As for Carlos, surely you jest. I can only remember him being the first choice 10 in losing tests, or tests in which the ABs grossly underperformed. Wasn't too accurate in the goal-kicking department either, was he? & Aaron who ??

[zer0]

Well, Carter and Mehtens weren't bad, as far as they go, but I think Barrett will indeed eclipse them both. As for Carlos, surely you jest. I can only remember him being the first choice 10 in losing tests, or tests in which the ABs grossly underperformed. Wasn't too accurate in the goal-kicking department either, was he? & Aaron who ??

You don't recall them winning the Bledisloe back then, and, in the process, putting 50 on Australia (in Australia, no less)?

[cashead]

Gonna go with DC here.

[zer0]

Regardless, the correct answer is...

[Lizard]

Well, Carter and Mehtens weren't bad, as far as they go, but I think Barrett will indeed eclipse them both. As for Carlos, surely you jest. I can only remember him being the first choice 10 in losing tests, or tests in which the ABs grossly underperformed. Wasn't too accurate in the goal-kicking department either, was he? & Aaron who ??

Carlos started at 10 in 30 of his 35 tests (of which NZ lost 5), and was picked ahead of Mehrts (probably wrongly) for RWC2003 and for most of 2004. Of those 30

I agree that Mehrtens was the better player but some, I recall clearly, preferred Carlos for his "X factor."

[rowan]

Well, Carter and Mehtens weren't bad, as far as they go, but I think Barrett will indeed eclipse them both. As for Carlos, surely you jest. I can only remember him being the first choice 10 in losing tests, or tests in which the ABs grossly underperformed. Wasn't too accurate in the goal-kicking department either, was he? & Aaron who ??

You don't recall them winning the Bledisloe back then, and, in the process, putting 50 on Australia (in Australia, no less)?

Oh, maybe. Incidentally, I used to go out drinking with with the Spencers. Carlos' old man Graham was a senior rugby coach during my days as a junior reporter and derived much amusement from getting me drunk as a skunk. So it's all a bit hazy these days...

[cashead]

2004 was pretty much the last gasp for Spencer and Mehrts as All Blacks, and the France test that year was a definitive test where Carter became the first five-eighth for the All Blacks. As good as Spencer and Mehrtens were, I don't think either of them at the height of their powers could provide the complete package that Carter could.

Carter has gone up against 10s that were better on attack, better goalkickers and better defenders (an in-form Cooper, Steyn and Wilkinson), but none of them were as good as Carter overall.

If Barrett is playing as well as he is now 10 years from now, maybe he'd be a strong contender for best ABs 10 ever, but as it stands, Carter is pretty much peerless.

[Spy]

Easy choice. Barrett's smoking hot as a running 5/8 right now, but Carter was clearly a more complete player, and maintained excellence over a long career. Barrett has a long way to go if he's to be regarded as a better all-round first-five over a career than DC. (ie, basically what Cashead said above).

[Lizard]

Yes. At 25 years old, how long until Barrett loses that amazing acceleration? Then what?


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[canta_brian]

Carter was the first non protected 1st 5 in nz. Up till he came along 10s didn't tackle. Having your 10 buried at the bottom of a ruck was seen as a bad thing. Interesting to think how backlines have had to adapt to allow for the traditional playmaker to be out of the game for a phase or two.

[Spiffy]

Yes. At 25 years old, how long until Barrett loses that amazing acceleration? Then what?


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About 5-6 years.
Did you happen to see little Jimmy Gopperth (33) outsprint George North in a Wasps v. Saints club game a couple od weeks ago? Great stuff. (Gopperth is surrently the leading points scored in the English PI).

[morepork]

George North's top end is roughly at the level of Savea 5 minutes after a post-coital fish and chip binge.

[Lizard]

Yes. At 25 years old, how long until Barrett loses that amazing acceleration? Then what?


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About 5-6 years.
Did you happen to see little Jimmy Gopperth (33) outsprint George North in a Wasps v. Saints club game a couple od weeks ago? Great stuff. (Gopperth is surrently the leading points scored in the English PI).

No way. Really?



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[zer0]

Gopperth is still playing?! Still not wearing the gloves is he?

[Spiffy]

Yes. At 25 years old, how long until Barrett loses that amazing acceleration? Then what?


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About 5-6 years.
Did you happen to see little Jimmy Gopperth (33) outsprint George North in a Wasps v. Saints club game a couple od weeks ago? Great stuff. (Gopperth is surrently the leading points scored in the English PI).

No way. Really?



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Yes. He has had a new lease of life as a playmaking 12 for Wasps outside Cipriani at 10. He is scoring tries, making breaks and doing the place kicking. At the moment he's looking about the best all-round 12 in the league. (And despite what morepork says, North is really quite fast.)