Argentina tour

[Mikey Brown]

I wonder what the deal is with Sleightholme. I was assuming in-camp rehab group is much shorter term injuries, but he’s in the ‘not considered’ group.

Maybe they or he have taken the attitude that he's better taking the summer to rest and get a full pre-season in. Be oddly forward thinking if they have.

Probably more likely that he's come back too soon and tweaked it again though.

Puja

ETA. Yeahhh: https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/spor ... ur-5178675

Yeah. Unsurprising. Seeing him in a boot just a few weeks back it did seem surprising if he was 100% for the conclusion of the season.

A shame to hear Dingwall is considered a doubt too. He could well have captained the side. That site made me want to smash my phone to pieces so I didn’t get all the way through it. He must be rehabbing in camp for a reason though.

Still, a greater opportunity for Seb Atkinson to get some time at 12.

[FKAS]

Well that's a bit disappointing and feels like a missed opportunity with neither Benson nor Donoghue involved at 10 and no Porter at 9. Spencer is 33 next month and with his whopping 10 caps what's the point, similar with Davison.

I'm hoping for a core of the side that's going to play Vs Argentina then some of the younger players around them/on the bench.

Baxter, Dan, Heyes
Clarke, Coles
Kenningham, Willis, Pepper
JvP, Ford
S Atkinson, Ojomoh
Roebuck, Steward, IFW

Langdon, Ioygen, AOF, CCS, Hill, Quirke, C Atkinson, Beard

The midfield probably won't go that way, I can see Northmore starting and used as the direct option. Get Steward and Roebuck to come into the line and offer that for me.

Don't think we need George, Spencer or Slade for experience in this one but maybe two of the three into the 23 for the Pumas game.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Trevor Davison over Fasogbon is frustrating.

And I know we're missing some locks, but Isiekwe and Ewels just seems so meh! And Dombrandt. Deepest joy!

Muir is an odd one. Had a grand season, but at nearly 30 it doesn't seems too forward looking. I don't get Northmore either.

[Captainhaircut]

If those listed as rehabbing are out, then we are going to get pumped by Argies. Always the issue with this tour- missing an entire 15 with lions and then probably another 5 or 6 to injury.

Davidson over Fasogbon and Ewels/Isiekwe over Lockett frustrating.

[fivepointer]

Underhill named in the squad yet is still banned i thought?

Whats the deal with Fasogbon? Hes not rehabbing so has he simply been dropped.

An Atkinson-Ojomoh centre pairing would be very acceptable. Shame, we'll doubtless get Northmore-Slade.

[Mikey Brown]

Underhill named in the squad yet is still banned i thought?

Whats the deal with Fasogbon? Hes not rehabbing so has he simply been dropped.

An Atkinson-Ojomoh centre pairing would be very acceptable. Shame, we'll doubtless get Northmore-Slade.

Yeah. Sick of seeing Northmore get chance after chance for England and not delivering.

[Puja]

Underhill named in the squad yet is still banned i thought?

Whats the deal with Fasogbon? Hes not rehabbing so has he simply been dropped.

An Atkinson-Ojomoh centre pairing would be very acceptable. Shame, we'll doubtless get Northmore-Slade.

Yeah. Sick of seeing Northmore get chance after chance for England and not delivering.

In fairness, he's been in loads of training squads, both Jones and Showme Betterplay have had a lot of chances to look him over, and yet he's apparently never shown enough to ever endanger the starters. Are we really expecting him, at the age of 28, to suddenly launch a late run at an England career?

Puja

[jngf]

I think Guy Pepper is looking very impressive, not sure on his 2 MOTM calls though he was definitely up there, but I don’t know that I’d pick him ahead of Hill at 6 right now either.

To me Pepper has the makings of a great test 7 though I would still select a starting back row along the lines of 6 Hill 8 Willis 7 Underhill if all fit and available - can actually see this being the way up to next World Cup too ( regardless of any Lions coming back with enhanced reputations ).

Pollock is an interesting one, love his style and he’s the nearest thing England have ever had to a Michael Jones type back row forward - but I still wouldn’t pick him ahead of Underhill in that starting 7 berth, on grounds of sheer power and physicality alone.

[Mikey Brown]

Underhill named in the squad yet is still banned i thought?

Whats the deal with Fasogbon? Hes not rehabbing so has he simply been dropped.

An Atkinson-Ojomoh centre pairing would be very acceptable. Shame, we'll doubtless get Northmore-Slade.

Yeah. Sick of seeing Northmore get chance after chance for England and not delivering.

In fairness, he's been in loads of training squads, both Jones and Showme Betterplay have had a lot of chances to look him over, and yet he's apparently never shown enough to ever endanger the starters. Are we really expecting him, at the age of 28, to suddenly launch a late run at an England career?

Puja

Not particularly. He just seemed like a funny choice as an example of sticking with the tired old status quo.

Maybe his versatility is proving useful, having played a fair bit more of 12 recently, but frankly I’d have ruled him out based on his complete inability to stay fit.

There’s potential that outside a distributor like Atkinson you’d see him breaking the line at will, he probably runs better lines than any centre in the league, but no I don’t expect to see him have much of an England career to be honest.

[Banquo]

I think Guy Pepper is looking very impressive, not sure on his 2 MOTM calls though he was definitely up there, but I don’t know that I’d pick him ahead of Hill at 6 right now either.

To me Pepper has the makings of a great test 7 though I would still select a starting back row along the lines of 6 Hill 8 Willis 7 Underhill if all fit and available - can actually see this being the way up to next World Cup too ( regardless of any Lions coming back with enhanced reputations ).

Pollock is an interesting one, love his style and he’s the nearest thing England have ever had to a Michael Jones type back row forward - but I still wouldn’t pick him ahead of Underhill in that starting 7 berth, on grounds of sheer power and physicality alone.

You really over rate Underhill- he's very good, but a tad one dimensional still. He hits hard, and has improved his ground work and even links play sometimes. But, hitting hard is a minimum standard. When Pollock hits 21 (:)) come back to us, as you allude to, his versatility is impressive, especially for his age....and if you are actually wanting to develop, a much better bet v not available that much but very good Underhill (1 try in 40 intls is on the low side for a 7, you'd think)

[Puja]

Arundell and Ma'asi-White both notable absentees, given the amount of posts that we're spent on them of late.

Puja

[Banquo]

Arundell and Ma'asi-White both notable absentees, given the amount of posts that we're spent on them of late.

Puja

tru dat, though Maasi-White chat seemed a bit premature to me, having watched him in the CHAMP earlier this season.

[Scrumhead]

If those listed as rehabbing are out, then we are going to get pumped by Argies. Always the issue with this tour- missing an entire 15 with lions and then probably another 5 or 6 to injury.

Davidson over Fasogbon and Ewels/Isiekwe over Lockett frustrating.

You keep saying this but it doesn’t ever play out like that …

Our record against Argentina is excellent and despite this tour being a golden chance to beat us, our worst return is a 50:50 win/loss ratio.

Arguably Argentina are a better side now, but we had the stellar talents of Harry Williams, Piers Francis and Nathan Hughes in the squad on one of those tours.

[jngf]

Chat GPT is a lying piece of shit though

Without getting too geeky, Chat GPT has reached the point where its perspective ( namely the statistical average of much of what’s ever been published about rugby) increasingly make it a reasonable source of objective reference e.g. a few years back it would get the Curry twins playing styles completely mixed up now it’s really a lot, lot better. It doesn’t actually have the affordance of ‘lying’ as such as despite what the hype cycle and a few less informed on this believe, it really isn’t built to be in any way cognitively sentient.

Chat GPT has not got a perspective. It's a language model that works out the most likely word to put next to the last one. It doesn't *know* or *understand* anything - it's just creating sentences that are statistically plausible. The fact that those sentences are quite often factually true doesn't mean that it is a reliable source of information, because it's not designed to give you a correct answer, it's designed to give you a correct-sounding answer and those two things are sometimes very drastically not the same thing.

As such, using it as a "source of objective reference" is frankly risible.

Puja

Puja, not quite, it uses a hyper dimensional word space to rank terms of relative semantic relevance to each other. Terms of similar semantic meaning get more closely linked to each other within aforementioned space so in effect provide the equivalent of a source of objectivity, from the shear statistical amounts of weighting involved in the parameters of current large language models, now running into the trillions. I won’t go on about this because will be in danger of having to mod ourselves due to becoming increasingly off the topic of rugby

[jngf]

I think Guy Pepper is looking very impressive, not sure on his 2 MOTM calls though he was definitely up there, but I don’t know that I’d pick him ahead of Hill at 6 right now either.

To me Pepper has the makings of a great test 7 though I would still select a starting back row along the lines of 6 Hill 8 Willis 7 Underhill if all fit and available - can actually see this being the way up to next World Cup too ( regardless of any Lions coming back with enhanced reputations ).

Pollock is an interesting one, love his style and he’s the nearest thing England have ever had to a Michael Jones type back row forward - but I still wouldn’t pick him ahead of Underhill in that starting 7 berth, on grounds of sheer power and physicality alone.

You really over rate Underhill- he's very good, but a tad one dimensional still. He hits hard, and has improved his ground work and even links play sometimes. But, hitting hard is a minimum standard. When Pollock hits 21 (:)) come back to us, as you allude to, his versatility is impressive, especially for his age....and if you are actually wanting to develop, a much better bet v not available that much but very good Underhill (1 try in 40 intls is on the low side for a 7, you'd think)

Not sure I that I do tbh He’s arguably been the best tackler in world rugby for a decade and pound for pound one of the most powerful back rows England have ever fielded. For me he pocesses a physical and power edge over either of the Curry twins at 7 , and only Jack Willis is in the same class in terms of ability, albeit their styles differ. No doubt Pollock will take over the mantle in a few years time but he’s not the finished article yet.

[Stom]

Underhill named in the squad yet is still banned i thought?

Whats the deal with Fasogbon? Hes not rehabbing so has he simply been dropped.

An Atkinson-Ojomoh centre pairing would be very acceptable. Shame, we'll doubtless get Northmore-Slade.

Yeah. Sick of seeing Northmore get chance after chance for England and not delivering.

In fairness, he's been in loads of training squads, both Jones and Showme Betterplay have had a lot of chances to look him over, and yet he's apparently never shown enough to ever endanger the starters. Are we really expecting him, at the age of 28, to suddenly launch a late run at an England career?

Puja

TBF, there is some value in having a good footballer who is a good influence on others in the squad. He must be liked as a presence in the squad to keep getting in there without making the 23...and I do think he's one of the best CURRENT options for the 13 shirt...

But is he going to be a long term or even medium term option? I doubt it.

[FKAS]

Jack van Poortvliet has joined the British & Irish Lions squad as cover ahead of their game against Argentina on Friday in Dublin.

The Leicester Tigers and England scrum-half was named in England's 36-player training squad on Monday afternoon after featuring in Saturday's Gallagher Premiership Final.

The 24-year-old has made 15 appearances for England since his debut in 2022 against Australia in Perth.

[Danno]

Jack van Poortvliet has joined the British & Irish Lions squad as cover ahead of their game against Argentina on Friday in Dublin.

The Leicester Tigers and England scrum-half was named in England's 36-player training squad on Monday afternoon after featuring in Saturday's Gallagher Premiership Final.

The 24-year-old has made 15 appearances for England since his debut in 2022 against Australia in Perth.

Oh cool, more Spencer. Just wonderful.

[TheDasher]

Jack van Poortvliet has joined the British & Irish Lions squad as cover ahead of their game against Argentina on Friday in Dublin.

The Leicester Tigers and England scrum-half was named in England's 36-player training squad on Monday afternoon after featuring in Saturday's Gallagher Premiership Final.

The 24-year-old has made 15 appearances for England since his debut in 2022 against Australia in Perth.

Oh cool, more Spencer. Just wonderful.

I don't understand the negativity around Spencer on RR, I think he's really excellent... Better than JVP at this moment (JVP could well develop) in my view.

[Mikey Brown]

His England performances haven’t exactly been thrilling, but I agree the criticism goes a bit over board.

I think it’s a valid concern that he’s not remotely one for the future, but we’ve also got a backline full of kids on this tour.

[TheDasher]

To me Pepper has the makings of a great test 7 though I would still select a starting back row along the lines of 6 Hill 8 Willis 7 Underhill if all fit and available - can actually see this being the way up to next World Cup too ( regardless of any Lions coming back with enhanced reputations ).

Pollock is an interesting one, love his style and he’s the nearest thing England have ever had to a Michael Jones type back row forward - but I still wouldn’t pick him ahead of Underhill in that starting 7 berth, on grounds of sheer power and physicality alone.

You really over rate Underhill- he's very good, but a tad one dimensional still. He hits hard, and has improved his ground work and even links play sometimes. But, hitting hard is a minimum standard. When Pollock hits 21 (:)) come back to us, as you allude to, his versatility is impressive, especially for his age....and if you are actually wanting to develop, a much better bet v not available that much but very good Underhill (1 try in 40 intls is on the low side for a 7, you'd think)

Not sure I that I do tbh He’s arguably been the best tackler in world rugby for a decade and pound for pound one of the most powerful back rows England have ever fielded. For me he pocesses a physical and power edge over either of the Curry twins at 7 , and only Jack Willis is in the same class in terms of ability, albeit their styles differ. No doubt Pollock will take over the mantle in a few years time but he’s not the finished article yet.

Jngf - I am a huge fan of Underhill, I absolutely get people picking him as 1st choice 7 (I wouldn't) - but aside from his absolutely world class tackling (a big factor I grant you) you can't say that he's having more impact on games than Tom Curry and he doesn't bring the carrying threat of Earl, Pollock. He also won't turnover as much as ball as Pepper I'd guess. When you say 'pound for pound most powerful' - that's a tough one... As a tackler absolutely, but surely in carrying terms Earl would trump him, no? Earl is a powerful carrier and is a smaller man than Underhill. By the way I think at this moment I'm a 6 Hill, 7 T Curry man... although let's face it 6 Curry, 7 Earl, 8 Willis has confused some of us as it was rather fine in the 6ns...

[TheDasher]

His England performances haven’t exactly been thrilling, but I agree the criticism goes a bit over board.

I think it’s a valid concern that he’s not remotely one for the future, but we’ve also got a backline full of kids on this tour.

Sorry, you're absolute right, his age is a 'thing', that's a good argument. But as a player, I think he's excellent, a very accomplished all around 9.

[Danno]

Jack van Poortvliet has joined the British & Irish Lions squad as cover ahead of their game against Argentina on Friday in Dublin.

The Leicester Tigers and England scrum-half was named in England's 36-player training squad on Monday afternoon after featuring in Saturday's Gallagher Premiership Final.

The 24-year-old has made 15 appearances for England since his debut in 2022 against Australia in Perth.

Oh cool, more Spencer. Just wonderful.

I don't understand the negativity around Spencer on RR, I think he's really excellent... Better than JVP at this moment (JVP could well develop) in my view.

At Bath yes. In white, no. One of those players that never quite made the step up.

[TheDasher]

Arundell and Ma'asi-White both notable absentees, given the amount of posts that we're spent on them of late.

Puja

tru dat, though Maasi-White chat seemed a bit premature to me, having watched him in the CHAMP earlier this season.

I thought I was alone on the Maasi-White hype... I'm with you, I'm not sure I'm as excited as the media... Mind you, they're only excited as they're going with the 'Manu replacement' story because he's a Pacific Islander etc etc, even though Manu was an absolute dynamite, freak athlete and Maasi-White just seems much more 'normal' in comparison.

[Mikey Brown]

I still think Underhill is massively underrated with the ball in hand. His running style, angles and little tip-on passes seem pretty hard for defences to deal with. He might not get over the ball as much as we’d like, but boy does he thump opponents in the breakdown.

I think he’s absolutely world class, and seems to lift his game for the big occasions, but can he be relied upon to be available? It’s the Luke Northmore conundrum all over again.