America

[Son of Mathonwy]

I am terrified by the US election. I don't understand how the country has descended to the point where polls are a coin toss between a fairly bog-standard dull politician, and an open, literal fascist, who lies as easily as breathing, and has specific and verifiable plans about converting America to an autocracy.

I find it highly stressful. Tiktok has taken to showing me this guy who claims he predicted the last 10 elections who is saying that the polling is underrepresenting Harris because of the surge in early voting showing that there's going to be a high turnout of Dem voters and that it's going to be comfortable. I'm aware that it's likely bullshit and there's people the other side of Tiktok getting fed someone saying the opposite, but I would like it very much to be true, as it's the only way that my anxiety will be alleviated - if there's a Blue wave which makes it early and obvious that Harris has won. Anything where it's close or undecided will be worse than a Trump landslide to me, cause that shit will carry on for **months**.

Puja

Look, I know it can be scary to think about a Trump presidency when there is actually a machine behind him this time.

But there is literally zero we can do about it. And the more we see how absolutely appalling it could be...the worse we feel, with nothing we can do to help that.

So all we can do is ignore the noise. Most of it won't directly impact us anyway.

There's nothing we can do, so let's not get too into it. Hope Harris wins or Trump isn't as bad as the most apocalyptic warnings suggest. The impact on Ukraine/Russia is the biggest worry for non-US citizens. And either way the US funded genocide in Palestine will continue. The US democracy (such as it is) will creak but probably* survive a second Trump term. Wouldn't want to live there though.

*yeah, worst case is not nice

[Puja]

I am terrified by the US election. I don't understand how the country has descended to the point where polls are a coin toss between a fairly bog-standard dull politician, and an open, literal fascist, who lies as easily as breathing, and has specific and verifiable plans about converting America to an autocracy.

I find it highly stressful. Tiktok has taken to showing me this guy who claims he predicted the last 10 elections who is saying that the polling is underrepresenting Harris because of the surge in early voting showing that there's going to be a high turnout of Dem voters and that it's going to be comfortable. I'm aware that it's likely bullshit and there's people the other side of Tiktok getting fed someone saying the opposite, but I would like it very much to be true, as it's the only way that my anxiety will be alleviated - if there's a Blue wave which makes it early and obvious that Harris has won. Anything where it's close or undecided will be worse than a Trump landslide to me, cause that shit will carry on for **months**.

Puja

Look, I know it can be scary to think about a Trump presidency when there is actually a machine behind him this time.

But there is literally zero we can do about it. And the more we see how absolutely appalling it could be...the worse we feel, with nothing we can do to help that.

So all we can do is ignore the noise. Most of it won't directly impact us anyway.

I try to be sanguine and take your position that it's not logically sensible to worry as there's nothing to be done, but it's hard to do (not least because my brain comes pre-broken). The issue is that it will directly impact me, or at least my children. They are the country that goes to space, that makes television and movies, that has a military budget larger than the next ten combined, that owns our debt, owns our sports teams, owns most of the internet - they are inescapable and we are talking about the election of someone with plans to transform the government so that he and his ideologues cannot lose power. It's not hyperbole - it's already happened in part with the packing of the courts (both lower and Supreme) with hundreds of judges who are loyal to the cause and who are, even as we speak, reshaping the law on the flimsiest of pretexts and the most tenuous of cases. Now combined that with firing everyone at every Federal agency who doesn't tug their forelock and kiss the ring, combine that with another four years of judge appointments, of voting restrictions and electoral roll purges, of rolling back equality protections, weaponising the justice system, and deploying the National Guard to defend against "internal threats".

This could be the last free US election. And, it might not be the country I live in, but there's a hell of a lot of cross-pollination and a hell of a lot of influence, quite apart from the fact that he could start a war, crash the global economy, or just kill the planet because he won't be around for the results of global warming and so doesn't care about it. And it's not like it'd stop with him - he's got his designated successor and there'll be a tight enough control that it'd go straight from President Trump (after his third term, sanctioned by his courts, quite probably) to President Vance.

It's hard to ignore the noise.

Puja

[Banquo]

I am terrified by the US election. I don't understand how the country has descended to the point where polls are a coin toss between a fairly bog-standard dull politician, and an open, literal fascist, who lies as easily as breathing, and has specific and verifiable plans about converting America to an autocracy.

I find it highly stressful. Tiktok has taken to showing me this guy who claims he predicted the last 10 elections who is saying that the polling is underrepresenting Harris because of the surge in early voting showing that there's going to be a high turnout of Dem voters and that it's going to be comfortable. I'm aware that it's likely bullshit and there's people the other side of Tiktok getting fed someone saying the opposite, but I would like it very much to be true, as it's the only way that my anxiety will be alleviated - if there's a Blue wave which makes it early and obvious that Harris has won. Anything where it's close or undecided will be worse than a Trump landslide to me, cause that shit will carry on for **months**.

Puja

The guy who has got it right every time for 30 years ish is easy Harris win, so I reckon you can calm down. Either way, there's fck all you can do about it, so no point in getting stressed about something you can't control (and I know its easier said than done). Also, Trump's 'autocracy plan' has more than a hint of conspiracy theory about it, and its exactly what the US system is set up to stop.

[Sandydragon]

I am terrified by the US election. I don't understand how the country has descended to the point where polls are a coin toss between a fairly bog-standard dull politician, and an open, literal fascist, who lies as easily as breathing, and has specific and verifiable plans about converting America to an autocracy.

I find it highly stressful. Tiktok has taken to showing me this guy who claims he predicted the last 10 elections who is saying that the polling is underrepresenting Harris because of the surge in early voting showing that there's going to be a high turnout of Dem voters and that it's going to be comfortable. I'm aware that it's likely bullshit and there's people the other side of Tiktok getting fed someone saying the opposite, but I would like it very much to be true, as it's the only way that my anxiety will be alleviated - if there's a Blue wave which makes it early and obvious that Harris has won. Anything where it's close or undecided will be worse than a Trump landslide to me, cause that shit will carry on for **months**.

Puja

The guy who has got it right every time for 30 years ish is easy Harris win, so I reckon you can calm down. Either way, there's fck all you can do about it, so no point in getting stressed about something you can't control (and I know its easier said than done). Also, Trump's 'autocracy plan' has more than a hint of conspiracy theory about it, and its exactly what the US system is set up to stop.

Yep. Stock up on tinned goods and wait and see. I share Pujas disbelief that the polls should even be close. But that’s tribal voting for you I suppose and perceptions of Biden screwing up the economy have been around for a long time.

I’d normally agree with you about checks and balances, but how many states have been undermined by MAGA placemen? The only way this isn’t very messy is if Harris wins by a huge amount and I don’t think that is on the cards.

Plus, does a trump defeat make all this go away? He surely will be too old, or in prison, in four years time but Vance is probably the republican candidate for next time. Unless he is just playing Donald’s tune for the moment, there isn’t much in the way of policy difference between them. The influence of Trump and other influences like Peter Thiel, and I suppose Musk now, is a feature.

[Puja]

I am terrified by the US election. I don't understand how the country has descended to the point where polls are a coin toss between a fairly bog-standard dull politician, and an open, literal fascist, who lies as easily as breathing, and has specific and verifiable plans about converting America to an autocracy.

I find it highly stressful. Tiktok has taken to showing me this guy who claims he predicted the last 10 elections who is saying that the polling is underrepresenting Harris because of the surge in early voting showing that there's going to be a high turnout of Dem voters and that it's going to be comfortable. I'm aware that it's likely bullshit and there's people the other side of Tiktok getting fed someone saying the opposite, but I would like it very much to be true, as it's the only way that my anxiety will be alleviated - if there's a Blue wave which makes it early and obvious that Harris has won. Anything where it's close or undecided will be worse than a Trump landslide to me, cause that shit will carry on for **months**.

Puja

The guy who has got it right every time for 30 years ish is easy Harris win, so I reckon you can calm down. Either way, there's fck all you can do about it, so no point in getting stressed about something you can't control (and I know its easier said than done). Also, Trump's 'autocracy plan' has more than a hint of conspiracy theory about it, and its exactly what the US system is set up to stop.

The problem is that it's not starting from the top down, with all the checks and balances rigorously in place - they started from the bottom up. Trump installed 234 judges in his 4 years, including the 3 Supreme Court judges, and they were almost all from a list sourced by the Heritage Foundation, which identified true believers who would rule the way they want (and some of the appointees' lower court rulings have been truely comedic so far, with barely a figleaf of legal justification). His movement also has true believers in key local governmental roles. Finally, one of the first actions recommended by Project 2025 and which is specifically mentioned in Trump's manifesto (and which can be carried out by Presidential fiat, no Congress approval necessary) is reclassifying about 50,000 civil servants as "Political Appointees" who can then be terminated immediately and replaced with more Heritage Foundation people, who have already been picked out for the roles, pre-election.

What's going to stop him? Even if the Dems win both houses of Congress (highly unlikely if the vote goes badly and he wins the Presidency) and are able to stonewall him on new bills, he will have complete control of Federal Agencies because all the heads will be his people, so he can take action through them. And the state level people can continue changing the voting rules and electoral rolls, and they'll be praying for someone to bring a lawsuit because that'll just make things worse - a Trump-friendly judge will encode it into law or strike down a previous equality ruling, and even if it ends up in front of a judge that's non-hand-picked, it'll just get appealed to the Supreme Court where Clarence Thomas will lead the majority opinion to whatever the hells he likes - it requires something being so extreme that both Roberts and Alito break ranks before it can be shot down and that's well nigh impossible. And then that becomes the precedent that the country runs on for decades.

It sounds like I'm being alarmist because "America doesn't do authoritarianism" and "They won't let that happen," and "Somebody would stop him," and "Surely he wouldn't actually do that," but it's what he's literally running on. He's openly promising to do this and has all the tools and knowhow and money and backing to accomplish it. It's not alarmist; it's just alarming.

Plus, does a trump defeat make all this go away? He surely will be too old, or in prison, in four years time but Vance is probably the republican candidate for next time. Unless he is just playing Donald’s tune for the moment, there isn’t much in the way of policy difference between them. The influence of Trump and other influences like Peter Thiel, and I suppose Musk now, is a feature.

You're right, a Trump defeat doesn't make it all go away, but it does at least push it back for four years and give some kind of chance for Harris to do something that changes the picture for the next election. The only way to make it go away is for voters to reject it enough times and that'll only happen if she actually makes things better.

Puja

[Banquo]

I am terrified by the US election. I don't understand how the country has descended to the point where polls are a coin toss between a fairly bog-standard dull politician, and an open, literal fascist, who lies as easily as breathing, and has specific and verifiable plans about converting America to an autocracy.

I find it highly stressful. Tiktok has taken to showing me this guy who claims he predicted the last 10 elections who is saying that the polling is underrepresenting Harris because of the surge in early voting showing that there's going to be a high turnout of Dem voters and that it's going to be comfortable. I'm aware that it's likely bullshit and there's people the other side of Tiktok getting fed someone saying the opposite, but I would like it very much to be true, as it's the only way that my anxiety will be alleviated - if there's a Blue wave which makes it early and obvious that Harris has won. Anything where it's close or undecided will be worse than a Trump landslide to me, cause that shit will carry on for **months**.

Puja

The guy who has got it right every time for 30 years ish is easy Harris win, so I reckon you can calm down. Either way, there's fck all you can do about it, so no point in getting stressed about something you can't control (and I know its easier said than done). Also, Trump's 'autocracy plan' has more than a hint of conspiracy theory about it, and its exactly what the US system is set up to stop.

The problem is that it's not starting from the top down, with all the checks and balances rigorously in place - they started from the bottom up. Trump installed 234 judges in his 4 years, including the 3 Supreme Court judges, and they were almost all from a list sourced by the Heritage Foundation, which identified true believers who would rule the way they want. His movement also has true believers in key local governmental roles. Finally, one of the first actions recommended by Project 2025 and which is specifically mentioned in Trump's manifesto (and which can be carried out by Presidential fiat, no Congress approval necessary) is reclassifying about 50,000 civil servants as "Political Appointees" who can then be terminated immediately and replaced with more Heritage Foundation people, who have already been picked out for the roles, pre-election.

What's going to stop him? Even if the Dems win both houses of Congress (highly unlikely if the vote goes badly and he wins the Presidency) and are able to stonewall him on new bills, he will have complete control of Federal Agencies because all the heads will be his people, so he can take action through them. And the state level people can continue changing the voting rules and electoral rolls, and they'll be praying for someone to bring a lawsuit because that'll just make things worse - a Trump-friendly judge will encode it into law or strike down a previous equality ruling, and even if it ends up in front of a judge that's non-hand-picked, it'll just get appealed to the Supreme Court where Clarence Thomas will lead the majority opinion to whatever the hells he likes - it requires something being so extreme that both Roberts and Alito break ranks before it can be shot down and that's well nigh impossible. And then that becomes the precedent that the country runs on for decades.

It sounds like I'm being alarmist because "America doesn't do authoritarianism" and "They won't let that happen," and "Somebody would stop him," and "Surely he wouldn't actually do that," but it's what he's literally running on. He's openly promising to do this and has all the tools and knowhow and money and backing to accomplish it. It's not alarmist; it's just alarming.

Plus, does a trump defeat make all this go away? He surely will be too old, or in prison, in four years time but Vance is probably the republican candidate for next time. Unless he is just playing Donald’s tune for the moment, there isn’t much in the way of policy difference between them. The influence of Trump and other influences like Peter Thiel, and I suppose Musk now, is a feature.

You're right, a Trump defeat doesn't make it all go away, but it does at least push it back for four years and give some kind of chance for Harris to do something that changes the picture for the next election. The only way to make it go away is for voters to reject it enough times and that'll only happen if she actually makes things better.

Puja

I'll have to bow to your expertise in the US Constitution and allow you to be terrified. Meanwhile I'll stay off the internet of politics.

[Puja]

I'll have to bow to your expertise in the US Constitution and allow you to be terrified. Meanwhile I'll stay off the internet of politics.

Probably much better for your sanity; I really wish my brain would allow me to do the same.

Puja

[Banquo]

I'll have to bow to your expertise in the US Constitution and allow you to be terrified. Meanwhile I'll stay off the internet of politics.

Probably much better for your sanity; I really wish my brain would allow me to do the same.

Puja

come off soshul meedja did wonders for my daughter

[Stom]

I'll have to bow to your expertise in the US Constitution and allow you to be terrified. Meanwhile I'll stay off the internet of politics.

Probably much better for your sanity; I really wish my brain would allow me to do the same.

Puja

Delete the news apps from your phone. Stay off social. Get some walks in during the day.

That’s about it.

I was really struggling around Brexit and then covid

[Puja]

I'll have to bow to your expertise in the US Constitution and allow you to be terrified. Meanwhile I'll stay off the internet of politics.

Probably much better for your sanity; I really wish my brain would allow me to do the same.

Puja

come off soshul meedja did wonders for my daughter

It's generally not social media where I get my politics from - the problem is that it's not thrust upon me, but I go out of my way to find and research it. Difficulty of an ADHD brain - I know it's there so it's hard not to go looking and hyperfocus on it.

I should. And I will be trying harder cause, as you say, it's not like me knowing will affect it at all.

Puja

[paddy no 11]

It's important she wins, watching vlad tear down nato is a serious issue for all of us. A bit of anxiety about this is understandable and we're not totally removed from the result(s) - there'll be more than one!

[Sandydragon]

Probably much better for your sanity; I really wish my brain would allow me to do the same.

Puja

come off soshul meedja did wonders for my daughter

It's generally not social media where I get my politics from - the problem is that it's not thrust upon me, but I go out of my way to find and research it. Difficulty of an ADHD brain - I know it's there so it's hard not to go looking and hyperfocus on it.

I should. And I will be trying harder cause, as you say, it's not like me knowing will affect it at all.

Puja

I’d brace yourself. I fear we’re all in for an interesting 4 years

[Son of Mathonwy]

Watch this if you missed it last night on BBC2 - Trump: The Criminal Conspiracy Case.

Oh God, I wanted Trump to lose before, but after seeing that it's visceral. If he wins, he and that bunch of, well traitors is a pretty accurate description, will no doubt slip the legal process and avoid the jail time they richly deserve. On top of destroying democracy, it's the lives of normal people they casually destroy that really gets me.

Towards the end we see Pence telling a glum Fox News reporter how Trump and his legal guy outright asked him to overturn the votes from the states. How anybody who's seen that can believe Trump wasn't arranging a coup I don't know.

[paddy no 11]

Tucker Carlson - Dr Freud would have a field day with this fella

[Eugene Wrayburn]

It's basically the mask slipping a little bit more than usual. America ran a full on Apartheid regime until the mid 60s. Authoritarianism is absolutely in their nature - listen to Rachel Maddow's Ultra podcast for historical analogues. The majority of the country has always believed might is right. We give their nationalism the fancy name "American Exceptionalism" but it's exactly thesame nationalism wesee elsewhere, except that even apparently sane politicians like Harris firmly believe in it.

I'm resigned to whatever is going to happen. America has a chance to deny its authoritatian tendency rule of the federal government once again. But it's busy running most of the states and SCOTUS so it's only a matter of time before it bubbles up again. Next time probably with someone brighter and slicker and not suffering from dementia. Harris would be better for the world and better for America. But NATO would clearly kick the shit out of Russia with or without the Yanks. He wants a trade war? Well fine. Let the americans start suffering the pain of their choices. The isolationism will hurt them more than the rest of us - though I accept it will be a fucking pain in the arse all round. Maybe some of their voters will pull their heads out of their asses, maybe they won't.

As regards the UK our institutions are stronger than theirs (because they aren't entirely partisan) and our tv news not straight-up lying.Thankfully the sort of gerrymandering and voter suppression they have there is pretty much impossible here. Our media is a lot less deferential which helps as well. I'm confident we won't suffer the same fate as america.

[Sandydragon]

It's basically the mask slipping a little bit more than usual. America ran a full on Apartheid regime until the mid 60s. Authoritarianism is absolutely in their nature - listen to Rachel Maddow's Ultra podcast for historical analogues. The majority of the country has always believed might is right. We give their nationalism the fancy name "American Exceptionalism" but it's exactly thesame nationalism wesee elsewhere, except that even apparently sane politicians like Harris firmly believe in it.

I'm resigned to whatever is going to happen. America has a chance to deny its authoritatian tendency rule of the federal government once again. But it's busy running most of the states and SCOTUS so it's only a matter of time before it bubbles up again. Next time probably with someone brighter and slicker and not suffering from dementia. Harris would be better for the world and better for America. But NATO would clearly kick the shit out of Russia with or without the Yanks. He wants a trade war? Well fine. Let the americans start suffering the pain of their choices. The isolationism will hurt them more than the rest of us - though I accept it will be a fucking pain in the arse all round. Maybe some of their voters will pull their heads out of their asses, maybe they won't.

As regards the UK our institutions are stronger than theirs (because they aren't entirely partisan) and our tv news not straight-up lying.Thankfully the sort of gerrymandering and voter suppression they have there is pretty much impossible here. Our media is a lot less deferential which helps as well. I'm confident we won't suffer the same fate as america.

The NATO minus the US vs Russia discussion is an interesting one. The sad reality is that without a lot of the US supporting technology, it wouldn't be a fun event going toe to toe with a much larger military that was being supported by other regimes such as North Korea, Iran and China. The rest of Natos capabilities are (mostly) technologically superior to Russia which provides an advantage, but the investment in the nuts and bolts of a good military isn't universal. UK and France struggled with certain aspects of the operations in Libya until the US lent logistic support.

Politically too, if the US decided not to get involved and ignore its treaty commitments, there is no guarantee that other members wouldnt do the same. Greece and Turkey wouldnt work together at all. Poland would be beligerent, Germany might be, not so sure about other key members. Plus there is no clear command structure that works from top to bottom without American personnel. That latter point is fixable, but its not something you would want to do overnight if the US suddenly decided to step away mid-crisis point.

This kind of puts the discussions over a Euro army into focus.

[Sandydragon]

Watch this if you missed it last night on BBC2 - Trump: The Criminal Conspiracy Case.

Oh God, I wanted Trump to lose before, but after seeing that it's visceral. If he wins, he and that bunch of, well traitors is a pretty accurate description, will no doubt slip the legal process and avoid the jail time they richly deserve. On top of destroying democracy, it's the lives of normal people they casually destroy that really gets me.

Towards the end we see Pence telling a glum Fox News reporter how Trump and his legal guy outright asked him to overturn the votes from the states. How anybody who's seen that can believe Trump wasn't arranging a coup I don't know.

I just dont think they (the voters) are listening. The counter argument is that the Democrats are weaponising the justice system to go after Trump, so that kind of balances everythign out. Thats utter nonsense to any vaguely intelligent person but its somehow not an uncommon view.

I hope Harris can focus on the economy in the next week or so. That seems to be the area she is most afraid of discussion on and where swing voters might feel Trump is stronger.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Watch this if you missed it last night on BBC2 - Trump: The Criminal Conspiracy Case.

Oh God, I wanted Trump to lose before, but after seeing that it's visceral. If he wins, he and that bunch of, well traitors is a pretty accurate description, will no doubt slip the legal process and avoid the jail time they richly deserve. On top of destroying democracy, it's the lives of normal people they casually destroy that really gets me.

Towards the end we see Pence telling a glum Fox News reporter how Trump and his legal guy outright asked him to overturn the votes from the states. How anybody who's seen that can believe Trump wasn't arranging a coup I don't know.

I just dont think they (the voters) are listening. The counter argument is that the Democrats are weaponising the justice system to go after Trump, so that kind of balances everythign out. Thats utter nonsense to any vaguely intelligent person but its somehow not an uncommon view.

I hope Harris can focus on the economy in the next week or so. That seems to be the area she is most afraid of discussion on and where swing voters might feel Trump is stronger.

I agree. Of course, sadly, I don't expect this documentary to have any impact on a Trump supporter. They believe everything he says and/or think if loyal Republicans change the vote counts then it's all for the best anyway. Who needs democracy if you like the dictator? For the undecided (how there is such a group I don't know...) I suppose they hear Trump using the Joseph Goebbels technique of accusing the enemy of what he's doing (ie stealing the election) and don't know who to believe.

I am too ignorant of the US electorate to know what Harris should be concentrating on at this point. But whatever she does she needs to open that gap again. They're neck and neck. Unbelievably.

[Son of Mathonwy]

It's basically the mask slipping a little bit more than usual. America ran a full on Apartheid regime until the mid 60s. Authoritarianism is absolutely in their nature - listen to Rachel Maddow's Ultra podcast for historical analogues. The majority of the country has always believed might is right. We give their nationalism the fancy name "American Exceptionalism" but it's exactly thesame nationalism wesee elsewhere, except that even apparently sane politicians like Harris firmly believe in it.

I'm resigned to whatever is going to happen. America has a chance to deny its authoritatian tendency rule of the federal government once again. But it's busy running most of the states and SCOTUS so it's only a matter of time before it bubbles up again. Next time probably with someone brighter and slicker and not suffering from dementia. Harris would be better for the world and better for America. But NATO would clearly kick the shit out of Russia with or without the Yanks. He wants a trade war? Well fine. Let the americans start suffering the pain of their choices. The isolationism will hurt them more than the rest of us - though I accept it will be a fucking pain in the arse all round. Maybe some of their voters will pull their heads out of their asses, maybe they won't.

As regards the UK our institutions are stronger than theirs (because they aren't entirely partisan) and our tv news not straight-up lying.Thankfully the sort of gerrymandering and voter suppression they have there is pretty much impossible here. Our media is a lot less deferential which helps as well. I'm confident we won't suffer the same fate as america.

The NATO minus the US vs Russia discussion is an interesting one. The sad reality is that without a lot of the US supporting technology, it wouldn't be a fun event going toe to toe with a much larger military that was being supported by other regimes such as North Korea, Iran and China. The rest of Natos capabilities are (mostly) technologically superior to Russia which provides an advantage, but the investment in the nuts and bolts of a good military isn't universal. UK and France struggled with certain aspects of the operations in Libya until the US lent logistic support.

Politically too, if the US decided not to get involved and ignore its treaty commitments, there is no guarantee that other members wouldnt do the same. Greece and Turkey wouldnt work together at all. Poland would be beligerent, Germany might be, not so sure about other key members. Plus there is no clear command structure that works from top to bottom without American personnel. That latter point is fixable, but its not something you would want to do overnight if the US suddenly decided to step away mid-crisis point.

This kind of puts the discussions over a Euro army into focus.

I think NATO minus US might struggle for the will to fight. Forced into war it would probably be fine against Russia, but I imagine it would be much more likely to slip into appeasement and avoid conflict. And obviously if Trump actually favoured Putin he might try to impede our use of the military tech.

[Sandydragon]

It's basically the mask slipping a little bit more than usual. America ran a full on Apartheid regime until the mid 60s. Authoritarianism is absolutely in their nature - listen to Rachel Maddow's Ultra podcast for historical analogues. The majority of the country has always believed might is right. We give their nationalism the fancy name "American Exceptionalism" but it's exactly thesame nationalism wesee elsewhere, except that even apparently sane politicians like Harris firmly believe in it.

I'm resigned to whatever is going to happen. America has a chance to deny its authoritatian tendency rule of the federal government once again. But it's busy running most of the states and SCOTUS so it's only a matter of time before it bubbles up again. Next time probably with someone brighter and slicker and not suffering from dementia. Harris would be better for the world and better for America. But NATO would clearly kick the shit out of Russia with or without the Yanks. He wants a trade war? Well fine. Let the americans start suffering the pain of their choices. The isolationism will hurt them more than the rest of us - though I accept it will be a fucking pain in the arse all round. Maybe some of their voters will pull their heads out of their asses, maybe they won't.

As regards the UK our institutions are stronger than theirs (because they aren't entirely partisan) and our tv news not straight-up lying.Thankfully the sort of gerrymandering and voter suppression they have there is pretty much impossible here. Our media is a lot less deferential which helps as well. I'm confident we won't suffer the same fate as america.

The NATO minus the US vs Russia discussion is an interesting one. The sad reality is that without a lot of the US supporting technology, it wouldn't be a fun event going toe to toe with a much larger military that was being supported by other regimes such as North Korea, Iran and China. The rest of Natos capabilities are (mostly) technologically superior to Russia which provides an advantage, but the investment in the nuts and bolts of a good military isn't universal. UK and France struggled with certain aspects of the operations in Libya until the US lent logistic support.

Politically too, if the US decided not to get involved and ignore its treaty commitments, there is no guarantee that other members wouldnt do the same. Greece and Turkey wouldnt work together at all. Poland would be beligerent, Germany might be, not so sure about other key members. Plus there is no clear command structure that works from top to bottom without American personnel. That latter point is fixable, but its not something you would want to do overnight if the US suddenly decided to step away mid-crisis point.

This kind of puts the discussions over a Euro army into focus.

I think NATO minus US might struggle for the will to fight. Forced into war it would probably be fine against Russia, but I imagine it would be much more likely to slip into appeasement and avoid conflict. And obviously if Trump actually favoured Putin he might try to impede our use of the military tech.

That's an interesting point and one that could be a very nasty surprise. At least if not impede, then at least inhibit the provision of spares which would be almost as bad. Our new shiny JSF F35 aircraft wont work well without that enduring support. Also worth pointing out the reliance we have on the US for our nuclear deterrent as well.

If Russia was naked in its ambition to conquer all of Europe, I think there would be the will to fight. if they decided to pick off the Baltic states then I wouldnt bet my mortgage on that.

[Sandydragon]

Watch this if you missed it last night on BBC2 - Trump: The Criminal Conspiracy Case.

Oh God, I wanted Trump to lose before, but after seeing that it's visceral. If he wins, he and that bunch of, well traitors is a pretty accurate description, will no doubt slip the legal process and avoid the jail time they richly deserve. On top of destroying democracy, it's the lives of normal people they casually destroy that really gets me.

Towards the end we see Pence telling a glum Fox News reporter how Trump and his legal guy outright asked him to overturn the votes from the states. How anybody who's seen that can believe Trump wasn't arranging a coup I don't know.

I just dont think they (the voters) are listening. The counter argument is that the Democrats are weaponising the justice system to go after Trump, so that kind of balances everythign out. Thats utter nonsense to any vaguely intelligent person but its somehow not an uncommon view.

I hope Harris can focus on the economy in the next week or so. That seems to be the area she is most afraid of discussion on and where swing voters might feel Trump is stronger.

I agree. Of course, sadly, I don't expect this documentary to have any impact on a Trump supporter. They believe everything he says and/or think if loyal Republicans change the vote counts then it's all for the best anyway. Who needs democracy if you like the dictator? For the undecided (how there is such a group I don't know...) I suppose they hear Trump using the Joseph Goebbels technique of accusing the enemy of what he's doing (ie stealing the election) and don't know who to believe.

I am too ignorant of the US electorate to know what Harris should be concentrating on at this point. But whatever she does she needs to open that gap again. They're neck and neck. Unbelievably.

The economy seems to be a big issue (unsurprisingly) and despite recovering from the covid and other pressures, its reported (interested to see if our US based contributors agree) that many Americans 'feel' worse off compared to the pre-covid Trump era. Biden hasnt got much credit for the work he has done.

Harris should be hitting Trump hard on his blatantly harmful ideas, but seems wary of getting into the economic argument too much. It looks on paper to be an area where the Democrats should have strong ideas and be pushing for something positive, rather than rely on the anti-Trump message.

[paddy no 11]

Lancaster County reporting actual evidence of voters fraud in Pensylvania

[Son of Mathonwy]

As regards the UK our institutions are stronger than theirs (because they aren't entirely partisan) and our tv news not straight-up lying.Thankfully the sort of gerrymandering and voter suppression they have there is pretty much impossible here. Our media is a lot less deferential which helps as well. I'm confident we won't suffer the same fate as america.

I agree we are in a better place than the US but I'm not so confident that we won't suffer a similar fate.

Our institutions are stronger in some ways, weaker in others. Our TV news is incomparably better than in the US but our newspapers are appalling. We have no constitution, no rights which are truly protected. Anything could be changed by Parliament. A prime minister with a loyal majority has dictatorial powers for 5 years, unlike a president who usually faces meaningful opposition in Congress. The few checks that exist could be removed. UK supreme court? Reduce its powers or disband it. European Convention on Human Rights? Leave it. Voters rights? Reduce them for certain groups. Ministerial code? We already know that's a joke. Etc etc

Also re the same fate - if the Tories make a deal with Farage he could easily win the next election.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

It's basically the mask slipping a little bit more than usual. America ran a full on Apartheid regime until the mid 60s. Authoritarianism is absolutely in their nature - listen to Rachel Maddow's Ultra podcast for historical analogues. The majority of the country has always believed might is right. We give their nationalism the fancy name "American Exceptionalism" but it's exactly thesame nationalism wesee elsewhere, except that even apparently sane politicians like Harris firmly believe in it.

I'm resigned to whatever is going to happen. America has a chance to deny its authoritatian tendency rule of the federal government once again. But it's busy running most of the states and SCOTUS so it's only a matter of time before it bubbles up again. Next time probably with someone brighter and slicker and not suffering from dementia. Harris would be better for the world and better for America. But NATO would clearly kick the shit out of Russia with or without the Yanks. He wants a trade war? Well fine. Let the americans start suffering the pain of their choices. The isolationism will hurt them more than the rest of us - though I accept it will be a fucking pain in the arse all round. Maybe some of their voters will pull their heads out of their asses, maybe they won't.

As regards the UK our institutions are stronger than theirs (because they aren't entirely partisan) and our tv news not straight-up lying.Thankfully the sort of gerrymandering and voter suppression they have there is pretty much impossible here. Our media is a lot less deferential which helps as well. I'm confident we won't suffer the same fate as america.

The NATO minus the US vs Russia discussion is an interesting one. The sad reality is that without a lot of the US supporting technology, it wouldn't be a fun event going toe to toe with a much larger military that was being supported by other regimes such as North Korea, Iran and China. The rest of Natos capabilities are (mostly) technologically superior to Russia which provides an advantage, but the investment in the nuts and bolts of a good military isn't universal. UK and France struggled with certain aspects of the operations in Libya until the US lent logistic support.

Politically too, if the US decided not to get involved and ignore its treaty commitments, there is no guarantee that other members wouldnt do the same. Greece and Turkey wouldnt work together at all. Poland would be beligerent, Germany might be, not so sure about other key members. Plus there is no clear command structure that works from top to bottom without American personnel. That latter point is fixable, but its not something you would want to do overnight if the US suddenly decided to step away mid-crisis point.

This kind of puts the discussions over a Euro army into focus.

If it's a full on world war with the Chinese weighing in properly then perhaps all bets are off. But assuming something like the Russian force as is decided to pick off an EU state they'd get shat on from a very great height. They're currently in a draw with Ukraine. If they invaded any EU state I am absolutely certain the others all weigh in and we do too. Turkey can decide whether they want to be a Russian satellite or stay with the free world. I'm pretty sure the American arms manufacturers will insist on continuing to supply us. Europe doesn't need aid in the way Ukraine does and has its own arms manufacturers. I am unusually confident that even with Trump in charge we're grand.

[Sandydragon]

Watch this if you missed it last night on BBC2 - Trump: The Criminal Conspiracy Case.

Oh God, I wanted Trump to lose before, but after seeing that it's visceral. If he wins, he and that bunch of, well traitors is a pretty accurate description, will no doubt slip the legal process and avoid the jail time they richly deserve. On top of destroying democracy, it's the lives of normal people they casually destroy that really gets me.

Towards the end we see Pence telling a glum Fox News reporter how Trump and his legal guy outright asked him to overturn the votes from the states. How anybody who's seen that can believe Trump wasn't arranging a coup I don't know.

I just dont think they (the voters) are listening. The counter argument is that the Democrats are weaponising the justice system to go after Trump, so that kind of balances everythign out. Thats utter nonsense to any vaguely intelligent person but its somehow not an uncommon view.

I hope Harris can focus on the economy in the next week or so. That seems to be the area she is most afraid of discussion on and where swing voters might feel Trump is stronger.

I agree. Of course, sadly, I don't expect this documentary to have any impact on a Trump supporter. They believe everything he says and/or think if loyal Republicans change the vote counts then it's all for the best anyway. Who needs democracy if you like the dictator? For the undecided (how there is such a group I don't know...) I suppose they hear Trump using the Joseph Goebbels technique of accusing the enemy of what he's doing (ie stealing the election) and don't know who to believe.

I am too ignorant of the US electorate to know what Harris should be concentrating on at this point. But whatever she does she needs to open that gap again. They're neck and neck. Unbelievably.

It’s also worth considering that political insults are so common place now that many people just switch off. Voices n the left have been calling anyone right of centre a fascist for years. It’s lost its meaning. Now when someone genuinely authoritarian enters US politics, why should the average voter take that warning seriously?