Snap General Election called

[Sandydragon]

Back to the topic of nationalisation.

Our water supply. This really ought to be nationalised and properly funded. Reading articles like this is really shocking.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ish-rivers
Enforcement down from 800 per year to 17...

We should be taking care of our nature, and clearly because private money is involved, the profit motive encourages companies to cut costs by ofloading those costs onto the external environment, and by cutting the enforcement budget of environmental standards the regulations that should prevent this are not enforced. By reducing enforcement of environmental standards, competition of private companies find themselves competing who can get away with the most egregious actions.

Something should be done. Clearly nationalisation is only one solution out of many. But it seems like the problem is caused by private money, so the solution should be to remove private money.

Like many other quangos, the Environmental Agency was cash starved during austerity and hasn't recovered since. Any industry needs a regulator, even privatised ones, and if the regulator isnt up to the job for whatever reason, companies will take the piss.

[Zhivago]

Back to the topic of nationalisation.

Our water supply. This really ought to be nationalised and properly funded. Reading articles like this is really shocking.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ish-rivers
Enforcement down from 800 per year to 17...

We should be taking care of our nature, and clearly because private money is involved, the profit motive encourages companies to cut costs by ofloading those costs onto the external environment, and by cutting the enforcement budget of environmental standards the regulations that should prevent this are not enforced. By reducing enforcement of environmental standards, competition of private companies find themselves competing who can get away with the most egregious actions.

Something should be done. Clearly nationalisation is only one solution out of many. But it seems like the problem is caused by private money, so the solution should be to remove private money.

Like many other quangos, the Environmental Agency was cash starved during austerity and hasn't recovered since. Any industry needs a regulator, even privatised ones, and if the regulator isnt up to the job for whatever reason, companies will take the piss.

They're taking our piss and dumping it in our rivers!!

I don't see how water companies can compete agaisnt each other. The same water all goes through the same pipes. There isn't choice for the consumer, so why is it private?

Even if it's a not-for-profit like Dwr Cymru... what is the benefit over nationalisation?

The private water companies have eye-watering debt:equity ratios of 73% on average. They've been taking loans, cutting costs, and paying dividends overseas. At some point they'll collapse and the government will have to nationalise. Meanwhile the investors would have made off with the loot. No wonder there's a drought coming. The water companies presumably haven't been investing in new reservoirs etc (or in whatever appropriate infrastructure is required).

Oh and btw, I'm sure you guessed it, but the tap water in Netherlands is better than in the UK.

[Sandydragon]

Back to the topic of nationalisation.

Our water supply. This really ought to be nationalised and properly funded. Reading articles like this is really shocking.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ish-rivers
Enforcement down from 800 per year to 17...

We should be taking care of our nature, and clearly because private money is involved, the profit motive encourages companies to cut costs by ofloading those costs onto the external environment, and by cutting the enforcement budget of environmental standards the regulations that should prevent this are not enforced. By reducing enforcement of environmental standards, competition of private companies find themselves competing who can get away with the most egregious actions.

Something should be done. Clearly nationalisation is only one solution out of many. But it seems like the problem is caused by private money, so the solution should be to remove private money.

Like many other quangos, the Environmental Agency was cash starved during austerity and hasn't recovered since. Any industry needs a regulator, even privatised ones, and if the regulator isnt up to the job for whatever reason, companies will take the piss.

They're taking our piss and dumping it in our rivers!!

I don't see how water companies can compete agaisnt each other. The same water all goes through the same pipes. There isn't choice for the consumer, so why is it private?

Even if it's a not-for-profit like Dwr Cymru... what is the benefit over nationalisation?

The private water companies have eye-watering debt:equity ratios of 73% on average. They've been taking loans, cutting costs, and paying dividends overseas. At some point they'll collapse and the government will have to nationalise. Meanwhile the investors would have made off with the loot. No wonder there's a drought coming. The water companies presumably haven't been investing in new reservoirs etc (or in whatever appropriate infrastructure is required).

Oh and btw, I'm sure you guessed it, but the tap water in Netherlands is better than in the UK.

If the regulator had some teeth they wouldn't take the piss.

As it happens, I do share your concerns over how you can privatise water when its all the same pipes. Its not a true competitive environment.

[morepork]

Like many other quangos, the Environmental Agency was cash starved during austerity and hasn't recovered since. Any industry needs a regulator, even privatised ones, and if the regulator isnt up to the job for whatever reason, companies will take the piss.

They're taking our piss and dumping it in our rivers!!

I don't see how water companies can compete agaisnt each other. The same water all goes through the same pipes. There isn't choice for the consumer, so why is it private?

Even if it's a not-for-profit like Dwr Cymru... what is the benefit over nationalisation?

The private water companies have eye-watering debt:equity ratios of 73% on average. They've been taking loans, cutting costs, and paying dividends overseas. At some point they'll collapse and the government will have to nationalise. Meanwhile the investors would have made off with the loot. No wonder there's a drought coming. The water companies presumably haven't been investing in new reservoirs etc (or in whatever appropriate infrastructure is required).

Oh and btw, I'm sure you guessed it, but the tap water in Netherlands is better than in the UK.

If the regulator had some teeth they wouldn't take the piss.

As it happens, I do share your concerns over how you can privatise water when its all the same pipes. Its not a true competitive environment.

You think competition is the most appropriate conduit for managing the integrity of natural resources? Jesus man, that mantra died with the Dodo. The world is literally sick of this supply side bullshit. It’s failed by every available metric for the last century. Fucking hell.

[Sandydragon]

They're taking our piss and dumping it in our rivers!!

I don't see how water companies can compete agaisnt each other. The same water all goes through the same pipes. There isn't choice for the consumer, so why is it private?

Even if it's a not-for-profit like Dwr Cymru... what is the benefit over nationalisation?

The private water companies have eye-watering debt:equity ratios of 73% on average. They've been taking loans, cutting costs, and paying dividends overseas. At some point they'll collapse and the government will have to nationalise. Meanwhile the investors would have made off with the loot. No wonder there's a drought coming. The water companies presumably haven't been investing in new reservoirs etc (or in whatever appropriate infrastructure is required).

Oh and btw, I'm sure you guessed it, but the tap water in Netherlands is better than in the UK.

If the regulator had some teeth they wouldn't take the piss.

As it happens, I do share your concerns over how you can privatise water when its all the same pipes. Its not a true competitive environment.

You think competition is the most appropriate conduit for managing the integrity of natural resources? Jesus man, that mantra died with the Dodo. The world is literally sick of this supply side bullshit. It’s failed by every available metric for the last century. Fucking hell.

And nationalisation doesn't work that well either. The privatised companies complained vocally when they saw the state of the network when they took over from the state provider; literally no investment. The current system doesn't work, but thats not a reason to throw out privatisation altogether because its ideologically opposed to a way of thinking.

[Stom]

If the regulator had some teeth they wouldn't take the piss.

As it happens, I do share your concerns over how you can privatise water when its all the same pipes. Its not a true competitive environment.

You think competition is the most appropriate conduit for managing the integrity of natural resources? Jesus man, that mantra died with the Dodo. The world is literally sick of this supply side bullshit. It’s failed by every available metric for the last century. Fucking hell.

And nationalisation doesn't work that well either. The privatised companies complained vocally when they saw the state of the network when they took over from the state provider; literally no investment. The current system doesn't work, but thats not a reason to throw out privatisation altogether because its ideologically opposed to a way of thinking.

If an organization is given no reason to provide a better service, it won’t. Private water has no reason

[Puja]

If the regulator had some teeth they wouldn't take the piss.

As it happens, I do share your concerns over how you can privatise water when its all the same pipes. Its not a true competitive environment.

You think competition is the most appropriate conduit for managing the integrity of natural resources? Jesus man, that mantra died with the Dodo. The world is literally sick of this supply side bullshit. It’s failed by every available metric for the last century. Fucking hell.

And nationalisation doesn't work that well either. The privatised companies complained vocally when they saw the state of the network when they took over from the state provider; literally no investment. The current system doesn't work, but thats not a reason to throw out privatisation altogether because its ideologically opposed to a way of thinking.

The difference is that, if a nationalised utility has no investment, then that is easily fixed. A privatised utility that has no investment and no real incentive to invest? The only leverage is government bribery and in which case, they may as well have just invested the money and got 100% use out of it.

What, in your opinion, makes the private sector more likely than nationalised utilities to invest in infrastructure, when there's no meaningful choice for the consumer?

Puja

[morepork]

Let’s define “works well “ in terms of the integrity of the natural resource. Then we can compare appropriate metrics. If the resource is poisoned, is your supply side mantra going to fix that? It’s fucking rhetorical at this point because we both know it won’t. How many decades of hard data do you need to acknowledge this blindingly obvious fact? Fucking hell. It’s just a ridiculous conversation, debating the very definition of stupidity at the expense of time, which is the commodity in shortest supply. Just fuck.

[Zhivago]

If the regulator had some teeth they wouldn't take the piss.

As it happens, I do share your concerns over how you can privatise water when its all the same pipes. Its not a true competitive environment.

You think competition is the most appropriate conduit for managing the integrity of natural resources? Jesus man, that mantra died with the Dodo. The world is literally sick of this supply side bullshit. It’s failed by every available metric for the last century. Fucking hell.

And nationalisation doesn't work that well either. The privatised companies complained vocally when they saw the state of the network when they took over from the state provider; literally no investment. The current system doesn't work, but thats not a reason to throw out privatisation altogether because its ideologically opposed to a way of thinking.

Seems to be working fine for Scotland and Northern Ireland. And the rest of Europe.

[Which Tyler]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ish-rivers?

Sewage sleuths: the men who revealed the slow, dirty death of Welsh and English rivers

A tide of effluent, broken laws and ruthless cuts is devastating the nations’ waterways. An academic and a detective have dredged up the truth of how it was allowed to happen – but will anything be done?

...

ARTICLE CONTINUES

[Son of Mathonwy]

Like many other quangos, the Environmental Agency was cash starved during austerity and hasn't recovered since. Any industry needs a regulator, even privatised ones, and if the regulator isnt up to the job for whatever reason, companies will take the piss.

They're taking our piss and dumping it in our rivers!!

I don't see how water companies can compete agaisnt each other. The same water all goes through the same pipes. There isn't choice for the consumer, so why is it private?

Even if it's a not-for-profit like Dwr Cymru... what is the benefit over nationalisation?

The private water companies have eye-watering debt:equity ratios of 73% on average. They've been taking loans, cutting costs, and paying dividends overseas. At some point they'll collapse and the government will have to nationalise. Meanwhile the investors would have made off with the loot. No wonder there's a drought coming. The water companies presumably haven't been investing in new reservoirs etc (or in whatever appropriate infrastructure is required).

Oh and btw, I'm sure you guessed it, but the tap water in Netherlands is better than in the UK.

If the regulator had some teeth they wouldn't take the piss.

As it happens, I do share your concerns over how you can privatise water when its all the same pipes. Its not a true competitive environment.

That will never happen with a government that listens to lobbyists for privatised water companies.

So get a better government or end lobbying or nationalise the industry.

Preferably all three.

[Sandydragon]

They're taking our piss and dumping it in our rivers!!

I don't see how water companies can compete agaisnt each other. The same water all goes through the same pipes. There isn't choice for the consumer, so why is it private?

Even if it's a not-for-profit like Dwr Cymru... what is the benefit over nationalisation?

The private water companies have eye-watering debt:equity ratios of 73% on average. They've been taking loans, cutting costs, and paying dividends overseas. At some point they'll collapse and the government will have to nationalise. Meanwhile the investors would have made off with the loot. No wonder there's a drought coming. The water companies presumably haven't been investing in new reservoirs etc (or in whatever appropriate infrastructure is required).

Oh and btw, I'm sure you guessed it, but the tap water in Netherlands is better than in the UK.

If the regulator had some teeth they wouldn't take the piss.

As it happens, I do share your concerns over how you can privatise water when its all the same pipes. Its not a true competitive environment.

That will never happen with a government that listens to lobbyists for privatised water companies.

So get a better government or end lobbying or nationalise the industry.

Preferably all three.

I think austerity was the biggest culprit given that the regulator used to take companies to court and now don't. Other regulators are far less effective and probably because of politics. for the EA it feels more like a financial thing.

[Zhivago]

If the regulator had some teeth they wouldn't take the piss.

As it happens, I do share your concerns over how you can privatise water when its all the same pipes. Its not a true competitive environment.

That will never happen with a government that listens to lobbyists for privatised water companies.

So get a better government or end lobbying or nationalise the industry.

Preferably all three.

I think austerity was the biggest culprit given that the regulator used to take companies to court and now don't. Other regulators are far less effective and probably because of politics. for the EA it feels more like a financial thing.

It doesn't work. The companies would just provision for a fine and pass the cost onto their customers.

[Which Tyler]

It doesn't work. The companies would just provision for a fine and pass the cost onto their customers.

Which has been the case for donkeys years.

The cost of the fine is less than the cost of the maintenance, and you rarely have to pay the fine anyway.
The odd fine is just baked in as the cost of doing business, and way, WAY less than the cost of doing the work.

[Son of Mathonwy]

If the regulator had some teeth they wouldn't take the piss.

As it happens, I do share your concerns over how you can privatise water when its all the same pipes. Its not a true competitive environment.

That will never happen with a government that listens to lobbyists for privatised water companies.

So get a better government or end lobbying or nationalise the industry.

Preferably all three.

I think austerity was the biggest culprit given that the regulator used to take companies to court and now don't. Other regulators are far less effective and probably because of politics. for the EA it feels more like a financial thing.

Austerity + hatred of regulations + too cosy with lobbyists/business leaders (possibly donors too?)

[Puja]

The other thing with privatised utilities is that the government has given away one of its major economic levers. At the moment, we've got a massive cost of living crisis and ridiculous inflation and the only tools that the government has to deal with it are all by squashing the demand - fighting wage/benefit/pension rises and raising interest rates, none of which are particularly great for getting us out of a recession (and that's not thinking about the fact that fighting payrises is the government effectively saying that the poor starving is an acceptable solution to curb inflation damaging the value of capital).

If gas, electric, water, and trains were in public hands, then they'd have another tool - suppressing price rises, or even instituting price drops. It'd be costly, but probably less costly than the hit to growth that will come from suppressing demand.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

The other thing with privatised utilities is that the government has given away one of its major economic levers. At the moment, we've got a massive cost of living crisis and ridiculous inflation and the only tools that the government has to deal with it are all by squashing the demand - fighting wage/benefit/pension rises and raising interest rates, none of which are particularly great for getting us out of a recession (and that's not thinking about the fact that fighting payrises is the government effectively saying that the poor starving is an acceptable solution to curb inflation damaging the value of capital).

If gas, electric, water, and trains were in public hands, then they'd have another tool - suppressing price rises, or even instituting price drops. It'd be costly, but probably less costly than the hit to growth that will come from suppressing demand.

Puja

They could also subsidise the r utility companies and enforce a price cap that was underpinned by public money.

[Puja]

The other thing with privatised utilities is that the government has given away one of its major economic levers. At the moment, we've got a massive cost of living crisis and ridiculous inflation and the only tools that the government has to deal with it are all by squashing the demand - fighting wage/benefit/pension rises and raising interest rates, none of which are particularly great for getting us out of a recession (and that's not thinking about the fact that fighting payrises is the government effectively saying that the poor starving is an acceptable solution to curb inflation damaging the value of capital).

If gas, electric, water, and trains were in public hands, then they'd have another tool - suppressing price rises, or even instituting price drops. It'd be costly, but probably less costly than the hit to growth that will come from suppressing demand.

Puja

They could also subsidise the r utility companies and enforce a price cap that was underpinned by public money.

In theory yes, although that's got a lot more steps and a lot more places for money to leave the system, especially since utility companies' main raison d'etre is "make money" rather than "do what the government wants". Far easier to have your hand on the wheel than it is to bribe the person with the hand on the wheel to steer the way you want.

Puja

[Stom]

The other thing with privatised utilities is that the government has given away one of its major economic levers. At the moment, we've got a massive cost of living crisis and ridiculous inflation and the only tools that the government has to deal with it are all by squashing the demand - fighting wage/benefit/pension rises and raising interest rates, none of which are particularly great for getting us out of a recession (and that's not thinking about the fact that fighting payrises is the government effectively saying that the poor starving is an acceptable solution to curb inflation damaging the value of capital).

If gas, electric, water, and trains were in public hands, then they'd have another tool - suppressing price rises, or even instituting price drops. It'd be costly, but probably less costly than the hit to growth that will come from suppressing demand.

Puja

They could also subsidise the r utility companies and enforce a price cap that was underpinned by public money.

In theory yes, although that's got a lot more steps and a lot more places for money to leave the system, especially since utility companies' main raison d'etre is "make money" rather than "do what the government wants". Far easier to have your hand on the wheel than it is to bribe the person with the hand on the wheel to steer the way you want.

Puja

You could always do what the Hungarian government has done in a similar situation, but with nationalised/part-nationalised utilities and transport...

Raise utility bills by 400% (nationalised industry)
Put a government funded price cap on petrol (not a nationalised industry) and chicken (again, not nationalised)
Fight to keep wages low to make sure Hungary is the go to place for Shared Service Centres looking for slave labour that isn't Indian
Kill off sole traderships
Aggressively fight the corporation tax increases led by Biden
Cut funding to Budapest by 200%
Raise government levy on Budapest controlled public transport by 200%
Budapest therefore has no choice but to increase ticket prices...

Yay, dictatorship FTW

[Puja]

They could also subsidise the r utility companies and enforce a price cap that was underpinned by public money.

In theory yes, although that's got a lot more steps and a lot more places for money to leave the system, especially since utility companies' main raison d'etre is "make money" rather than "do what the government wants". Far easier to have your hand on the wheel than it is to bribe the person with the hand on the wheel to steer the way you want.

Puja

You could always do what the Hungarian government has done in a similar situation, but with nationalised/part-nationalised utilities and transport...

Raise utility bills by 400% (nationalised industry)
Put a government funded price cap on petrol (not a nationalised industry) and chicken (again, not nationalised)
Fight to keep wages low to make sure Hungary is the go to place for Shared Service Centres looking for slave labour that isn't Indian
Kill off sole traderships
Aggressively fight the corporation tax increases led by Biden
Cut funding to Budapest by 200%
Raise government levy on Budapest controlled public transport by 200%
Budapest therefore has no choice but to increase ticket prices...

Yay, dictatorship FTW

Wow. That doesn't even look like the ruthlessly getting what they want of an autocracy, but instead random flailing. What's the endgame of all that?

Puja

[Stom]

In theory yes, although that's got a lot more steps and a lot more places for money to leave the system, especially since utility companies' main raison d'etre is "make money" rather than "do what the government wants". Far easier to have your hand on the wheel than it is to bribe the person with the hand on the wheel to steer the way you want.

Puja

You could always do what the Hungarian government has done in a similar situation, but with nationalised/part-nationalised utilities and transport...

Raise utility bills by 400% (nationalised industry)
Put a government funded price cap on petrol (not a nationalised industry) and chicken (again, not nationalised)
Fight to keep wages low to make sure Hungary is the go to place for Shared Service Centres looking for slave labour that isn't Indian
Kill off sole traderships
Aggressively fight the corporation tax increases led by Biden
Cut funding to Budapest by 200%
Raise government levy on Budapest controlled public transport by 200%
Budapest therefore has no choice but to increase ticket prices...

Yay, dictatorship FTW

Wow. That doesn't even look like the ruthlessly getting what they want of an autocracy, but instead random flailing. What's the endgame of all that?

Puja

Make life so terrible for the "liberal elite" that they (we) all fuck off and leave Hungary to the racist, sexist scumbags.

Oh, did you not hear? Mixed race marriage shouldn't be allowed. Yeah. Our Viktator was up there on a podium basically quoting Mein fucking Kampf, and being cheered for it.

[Zhivago]

It doesn't work. The companies would just provision for a fine and pass the cost onto their customers.

Which has been the case for donkeys years.

The cost of the fine is less than the cost of the maintenance, and you rarely have to pay the fine anyway.
The odd fine is just baked in as the cost of doing business, and way, WAY less than the cost of doing the work.

Lack of maintenance surely in this case:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ght-crisis

[Puja]

Jesus Fuck, Liz: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ke-culture

This bit especially:

At the same time, she set out her own view of Jewish values, saying: “So many Jewish values are Conservative values and British values too, for example seeing the importance of family and always taking steps to protect the family unit; and the value of hard work and self-starting and setting up your own business.

Liz Truss worries about racism against those Jewish people who she knows just want to be left alone to start businesses and earn lots of money. Spectacular.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

Jesus Fuck, Liz: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ke-culture

This bit especially:

At the same time, she set out her own view of Jewish values, saying: “So many Jewish values are Conservative values and British values too, for example seeing the importance of family and always taking steps to protect the family unit; and the value of hard work and self-starting and setting up your own business.

Liz Truss worries about racism against those Jewish people who she knows just want to be left alone to start businesses and earn lots of money. Spectacular.

Puja

I'm just waiting to hear her explain what Welsh values are. If she can stereotype Jews then it's my right as a Welshman to be similarly stereotyped.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Jesus Fuck, Liz: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ke-culture

This bit especially:

At the same time, she set out her own view of Jewish values, saying: “So many Jewish values are Conservative values and British values too, for example seeing the importance of family and always taking steps to protect the family unit; and the value of hard work and self-starting and setting up your own business.

Liz Truss worries about racism against those Jewish people who she knows just want to be left alone to start businesses and earn lots of money. Spectacular.

Puja

As you highlight, she is actually enacting an example of contemporary antisemitism according to the IHRA:

• Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical
allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective —
such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish
conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or
other societal institutions.

(Obviously the IHRA working definition is ridiculous, but Truss's government is signed up to it.)