If Russia invades Ukraine (more)...

[Sandydragon]

Yeah, that puzzled me somewhat as well. Outraged at Ukraine's temerity to... {checks notes} "attack a neighbouring country's sovereign territory". How dare they. Entirely without precedent.

Puja

And there was me thinking that a few weeks ago the Russians were claiming that Ukraine didn’t really exist but was really part of Russia all along. So how can Ukraine have attacked a neighbouring country if they are actually part of Russia? Russian propaganda having a few logic issues.

And on another one I wouldn’t blame Ukraine if they decided to send a few rockets into Belarus. At the very least those Russian forces in Belarus must be fair game

Mind, the Belarussian army isn't technically involved as things stand. Not that I suspect they're a massive threat to anyone, but probably not worthwhile inviting another invasion.

Puja

Permitting Russian forces to invade and fire artillery from your territory isn’t exactly the act of a neutral. But I suspect thenUkrainians don’t want another front to fight on, but Belarus needs a reckoning from this.

[Puja]

And there was me thinking that a few weeks ago the Russians were claiming that Ukraine didn’t really exist but was really part of Russia all along. So how can Ukraine have attacked a neighbouring country if they are actually part of Russia? Russian propaganda having a few logic issues.

And on another one I wouldn’t blame Ukraine if they decided to send a few rockets into Belarus. At the very least those Russian forces in Belarus must be fair game

Mind, the Belarussian army isn't technically involved as things stand. Not that I suspect they're a massive threat to anyone, but probably not worthwhile inviting another invasion.

Puja

Permitting Russian forces to invade and fire artillery from your territory isn’t exactly the act of a neutral. But I suspect thenUkrainians don’t want another front to fight on, but Belarus needs a reckoning from this.

Pretty much. The bombing raids attacking Kyiv are coming from Belarussian airfields as well, but they've not really got an option to rebuke that if they want to match Russia in the east.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

Apparently, the Russians are upset because Ukrainian fires have hit targets inside Russia. I must be misunderstanding their logic somewhere along the line.

Yeah, that puzzled me somewhat as well. Outraged at Ukraine's temerity to... {checks notes} "attack a neighbouring country's sovereign territory". How dare they. Entirely without precedent.

Puja

It's that whole outraging the bully by fighting back thing.

[Galfon]

This is it then..depends who runs out of weapons & soldiers first,
or if the penny drops in Rus. before then.

[Sandydragon]

This is it then..depends who runs out of weapons & soldiers first,
or if the penny drops in Rus. before then.

I suppose if Russia can force their way forward in the east then Putin may declare victory. We can only hope that the war highlights the Russian propaganda to its own people and forces some change, but I’m not that confident.

[Sandydragon]

We've got Noam Chomsky showing his ass over this. Funny how people like him and the tankie shitheads like Clare Daly don't even stop to think about Ukraine's agency in the matter, while they can't even fathom that there's no point in even entertaining the notion that Russia is willing or capable of negotiating in good faith.

But then again, this is Noam "The Khmer Rouge are cool and handsome and I want to kiss Pol Pot on the lips and they have done nothing wrong" Chomsky we're talking about.

What are his latest utterances?

In the UK, a number of Labour MPs including much of the front bench under Corbyn have decided that Ukraine is as much to blame for this as Russia. They seem to think that Russia is still pretending to be a communist country fighting the decadent capitalist west, rather than a kleptocratic dictatorship. Bly the threat of losing the Labour whip brought them back, except Corbyn who hasn’t regained the whip following some previous dodgy associations.

[Sandydragon]

We've got Noam Chomsky showing his ass over this. Funny how people like him and the tankie shitheads like Clare Daly don't even stop to think about Ukraine's agency in the matter, while they can't even fathom that there's no point in even entertaining the notion that Russia is willing or capable of negotiating in good faith.

But then again, this is Noam "The Khmer Rouge are cool and handsome and I want to kiss Pol Pot on the lips and they have done nothing wrong" Chomsky we're talking about.

What are his latest utterances?

In the UK, a number of Labour MPs including much of the front bench under Corbyn have decided that Ukraine is as much to blame for this as Russia. They seem to think that Russia is still pretending to be a communist country fighting the decadent capitalist west, rather than a kleptocratic dictatorship. Bly the threat of losing the Labour whip brought them back, except Corbyn who hasn’t regained the whip following some previous dodgy associations.

Ukraine are obliged to make concessions to Russia, and be willing be willing to cede to Russian demands. Oh, and Ukraine can’t enter NATO because that would hurt Putin’s feefees, and the USA are in the wrong for aiding Ukraine.

Because, you know, it’s not like Putin has repeatedly made it clear he is not willing to negotiate in good faith or anything.

Alternatively, he can suck the shit directly from my ass with a straw. You DO NOT make concessions to an army of bandits, especially when they’re literally raping and murdering children. I’m sure he’s aware of the shit that’s come out of Bucha, and to turn around and say what he has, he can go fuck for all I care.

Right o. Surely for the Ukrainians to decide if they want to fight for their country? A bit imperialistic of Chomsky to suggest that NATO make the decision on behalf of Ukraine. And I assume he’s never read about appeasement.

[Galfon]

Guaranteed to get his name on a list nothing to do with Christmas cards: (from beeb article )
Russ. (ex-)billionaire oligarch & entrepreneur Oleg Tinkov has lambasted the country's "massacre" in Ukraine and called for an end to the "crazy war".
on instagram, he did not see "any beneficiary" of the conflict, said "90%" of his country's people were against the war and added "morons in any country are 10%". (*)
He said: "I don't see a SINGLE beneficiary of this insane war! Innocent people and soldiers are dying.
"Waking up with a hangover, the generals realised that they have a shit army.
"And how will the army be good, if everything else in the country is shitty and mired in nepotism, sycophancy and servility?"
and in English,
"Dear 'collective West' please give Mr Putin a clear exit to save his face and stop this massacre. Please be more rational and humanitarian."

Can't see any obvious get-out other than the usual devolved regions/independant states fudge in the east, you could even throw Crimea in the mix.

(*)they ain't that bad if only dealing with 10%

[Mellsblue]

And so it begins. A ‘referendum’ in Kherson is set for the 27th.

[Sandydragon]

Some updates: Valery Kuleshov, a pro-Russian collaborator blogger in Ukraine, died in Kherson.



It appears to be natural causes.


Meanwhile, Olaf Scholz is trying to fend off a growing scandal, in which accusations of him being a pro-Putin collaborationist fuck just won't go away for some reason.



https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1516 ... 73091.html - here it is on Threadreader. It's pretty fucking damning.

Multiple bullet holes in the window and it’s not clear

Oh well, betraying your fellow countrymen can have consequences.

[Sandydragon]

Guaranteed to get his name on a list nothing to do with Christmas cards: (from beeb article )
Russ. (ex-)billionaire oligarch & entrepreneur Oleg Tinkov has lambasted the country's "massacre" in Ukraine and called for an end to the "crazy war".
on instagram, he did not see "any beneficiary" of the conflict, said "90%" of his country's people were against the war and added "morons in any country are 10%". (*)
He said: "I don't see a SINGLE beneficiary of this insane war! Innocent people and soldiers are dying.
"Waking up with a hangover, the generals realised that they have a shit army.
"And how will the army be good, if everything else in the country is shitty and mired in nepotism, sycophancy and servility?"
and in English,
"Dear 'collective West' please give Mr Putin a clear exit to save his face and stop this massacre. Please be more rational and humanitarian."

Can't see any obvious get-out other than the usual devolved regions/independant states fudge in the east, you could even throw Crimea in the mix.

(*)they ain't that bad if only dealing with 10%

I’m not sure that it’s the wests lack of humanity and rationality is the problem here. If we agree that Russia can have eastern Ukraine then:

By what right do we do that? Smells like Munich.
We encourage a very dangerous dictator to do more. Again Munich.

The time to make it clear that Russia has gone too far has passed with Georgia and Crimea. If NATO had started putting troops on the polish border at that point then perhaps it might have deterred Putin from going further.

[Puja]

And so it begins. A ‘referendum’ in Kherson is set for the 27th.

I'm wondering if that's a trap. Retaking Kherson is definitely within the capabilities of the Ukranian military and liberating it before the "referendum" would be a highly tempting fuck you to Putin, but doing so would weaken their defence of the East and also be sending the numerically inferior Ukranians into the meat grinder of a prepared defence as opposed to vice versa which has given the best results of the war so far.

Puja

[Galfon]

The time to make it clear that Russia has gone too far has passed with Georgia and Crimea..

This is true and any form of separation of those parts would allow VP to claim victory.As it stands Rus. appear content to grind things out on the back of numerical advantage.

[Son of Mathonwy]

And so it begins. A ‘referendum’ in Kherson is set for the 27th.

I'm wondering if that's a trap. Retaking Kherson is definitely within the capabilities of the Ukranian military and liberating it before the "referendum" would be a highly tempting fuck you to Putin, but doing so would weaken their defence of the East and also be sending the numerically inferior Ukranians into the meat grinder of a prepared defence as opposed to vice versa which has given the best results of the war so far.

Puja

Hopefully Ukraine will let the Russians come to them, to maximize the damage to Putin's military. I can't see them taking any stupid risks given what they're up against.

[Sandydragon]

And so it begins. A ‘referendum’ in Kherson is set for the 27th.

I'm wondering if that's a trap. Retaking Kherson is definitely within the capabilities of the Ukranian military and liberating it before the "referendum" would be a highly tempting fuck you to Putin, but doing so would weaken their defence of the East and also be sending the numerically inferior Ukranians into the meat grinder of a prepared defence as opposed to vice versa which has given the best results of the war so far.

Puja

Hopefully Ukraine will let the Russians come to them, to maximize the damage to Putin's military. I can't see them taking any stupid risks given what they're up against.

This far the Ukrainian high command has got this spot on. The Russian offensive in the east is the main threat so it would make more sense to look to halt that before any counter offensives.

[Mellsblue]

Estonia!!

[Which Tyler]

Seems a little odd to criticise EU's (apparent) designated peace broker for not stoking war.

Post-Bucha, of course, peace negotiations won't be going anywhere.

[Mellsblue]

I wonder which country Germany and France have supplied the most arms to, Russia or Ukraine:

https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/20 ... to-russia/

The final sentence in the article is quite the plot twist.

[Mellsblue]

And so it begins. A ‘referendum’ in Kherson is set for the 27th.

If the ‘referendum’ is the penultimate step to annexation, the ‘mistreatment of the Russian speaking population’ is the first:

https://www.reuters.com/world/moldova-p ... 022-04-22/

[Galfon]

Seems a little odd to criticise EU's (apparent) designated peace broker for not stoking war.
..

" 'Normandy format' ?... I see, 1066.... ."

[Mellsblue]

That’s not really the point. Plus:

[Galfon]

Grimacing, lip-biting, foot-tapping, table-grippng for 10 mins.
or more ?.
Sure the doctors are on this..

[Son of Mathonwy]

Disgraceful if true, but not surprising: the home office's wilfully ineffective visa scheme for Ukrainians:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ed-to-fail

There's evidence that visas are being given to all but one family members, ensuring that the visas given will not be used. Questions should be asked.

[Which Tyler]

Disgraceful if true, but not surprising: the home office's wilfully ineffective visa scheme for Ukrainians:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ed-to-fail

There's evidence that visas are being given to all but one family members, ensuring that the visas given will not be used. Questions should be asked.

And this is without mentioning the absolute mess of the paperwork to discourage Brits from fully finishing it.
Or the placement of solitary females Ukrainians with solitary make Brits, to... discourage them from coming.

It's almost like our home office is being led by a cartoon villain!

[Son of Mathonwy]

Disgraceful if true, but not surprising: the home office's wilfully ineffective visa scheme for Ukrainians:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ed-to-fail

There's evidence that visas are being given to all but one family members, ensuring that the visas given will not be used. Questions should be asked.

And this is without mentioning the absolute mess of the paperwork to discourage Brits from fully finishing it.
Or the placement of solitary females Ukrainians with solitary make Brits, to... discourage them from coming.

It's almost like our home office is being led by a cartoon villain!

The Rwanda policy has boosted Patel's popularity amongst Tory members, apparently. Not sure she had any popularity to lose amongst non-Tories.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 64791.html