First up Ireland

[Sandydragon]

I think it puts into perspective the achievement of Gatland when the regions were routinely awful yet the national team was successful. I know many will blame the impact of team Wales on the regional poor performance but it’s very clear that the current situation cannot continue.

I don’t blame the league- the Irish don’t seem to find a problem with it. But clearly the regions need more investment.
Players just simply can’t keep playing poorly and then turn it around for the national team.

[Son of Mathonwy]

It’s becoming apparent that the Sean Edwards affect helped carry us through the Gatland era where Wales performed far and above what people expected.

Pivac wanted his own defence coach when he could have had Edwards for four years with a little effort and blessing from the WRU. Bad mistake.

That’s one reason (just one of many) that we have lost our edge and aggression. Look what Edwards has done for France.

Monday’s inquest at the Vale is going to be a very sobering affair.

Edwards had already decided to quit - he was just trying to engineer a higher salary from the French by trying to get a bidding war going.

Very much agree he was a big reason (probably the main one) for the success of the Gatland era, as he is now for France. (Although let's not forget that success ebbed and flowed over the period, usually along with the injury count.)

[Son of Mathonwy]

Yesterday was a perfect storm: massive injury count, Ireland playing at their best level (ever?), an unsympathetic ref, regional rugby at rock bottom (on the pitch* and in the accounts). It's hard to compete under those conditions.

We need an analysis of what the Irish are doing to develop their game (consider the U20 match as well). There's no fundamental reason why they have a better set up than we do. (England should do the same - they also underperform considering their resources).


* in the Gatland era there was usually one region that was competitive, mostly the Ospreys, then at the end, the Scarlets. No one is competitive now.

[Sandydragon]

Yesterday was a perfect storm: massive injury count, Ireland playing at their best level (ever?), an unsympathetic ref, regional rugby at rock bottom (on the pitch* and in the accounts). It's hard to compete under those conditions.

We need an analysis of what the Irish are doing to develop their game (consider the U20 match as well). There's no fundamental reason why they have a better set up than we do. (England should do the same - they also underperform considering their resources).


* in the Gatland era there was usually one region that was competitive, mostly the Ospreys, then at the end, the Scarlets. No one is competitive now.

The current model doesn’t work. Time for a re set before regional rugby dies. A return to 12 clubs isn’t practical, but the four entities we have need to be supported better. Right now I’m all for the Irish model and if it takes five years to bed in then so be it. Hoping for private investment hasn’t worked for us.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Yesterday was a perfect storm: massive injury count, Ireland playing at their best level (ever?), an unsympathetic ref, regional rugby at rock bottom (on the pitch* and in the accounts). It's hard to compete under those conditions.

We need an analysis of what the Irish are doing to develop their game (consider the U20 match as well). There's no fundamental reason why they have a better set up than we do. (England should do the same - they also underperform considering their resources).


* in the Gatland era there was usually one region that was competitive, mostly the Ospreys, then at the end, the Scarlets. No one is competitive now.

The current model doesn’t work. Time for a re set before regional rugby dies. A return to 12 clubs isn’t practical, but the four entities we have need to be supported better. Right now I’m all for the Irish model and if it takes five years to bed in then so be it. Hoping for private investment hasn’t worked for us.

Agreed. I'd like to understand the Irish model better but from what I know, I think full (or at least joint) ownership of the regions by the WRU is needed. The WRU should make it a project (possibly a long-term one) to buy into (the share capital of) the regions.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Adams's performance was a bit of a mixed bag - our best metres run (48), with Basham 2nd (34), Tompkins way down at 8m.

But - in addition to the stupid yellow - Adams was penalised another 2 times, only put in 7 tackles (missing 2), compared with Basham's 22 (missing 0) and Tompkins's 21 (missing 3). Don't know what happened to Jenkins with only 5 tackles - less than Moriarty's 8.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstat ... gue=180659

The penalty count of Wales 14, Ireland 6 is a little hard to believe.

Scrum was okay - 5 from 6, but lineout, 8 from 12, completely unacceptable. We need to hire a specialist lineout coach/consultant/guru (this should have been done years ago. Decades ago), someone who actually had some skills in that area, like Matfield or O'Connell. We've never had any special skills, we are clueless about attacking the oppositions' lineout, the most we ever try for is to win our own.

[Sandydragon]

That penalty count was a joke. Another ref would have seen things very differently. But we’ve had the benefit of Jaco at home so you know what you’re getting and it made no difference really.

Our lineout was ok for a while but it’s gone to ratshit again. It’s not as if we don’t have any tall players but as a unit it’s awful. A lineout and scrum consultant is what we need to sort ourselves out.

[whatisthejava]

Peyer and raynol seriously fucked you guus. Porter completed one scrum in the first half, could have been pinged 3-4 plus that ridicous steal on wainwright when he was prevented from presenting.

Some really shitty calls including the penalty right before half time.

[whatisthejava]

Positives
Your scramble defence was pretty good
Negatives
I have no idea what your trying to do in attack.
Are you calling moves?
It just feels like 7s in that pass it out and hope.

[Sandydragon]

Peyer and raynol seriously fucked you guus. Porter completed one scrum in the first half, could have been pinged 3-4 plus that ridicous steal on wainwright when he was prevented from presenting.

Some really shitty calls including the penalty right before half time.

Yeah, but we have benefitted from his home bias in the past so you win some, you lose some. It might have affected the scoreline ab it and handed us some ball. But we didn't look like we knew what to do with it. Frankly we didn't look like the team knew each others names so I don't think it changed the result overall.

[whatisthejava]

Peyer and raynol seriously fucked you guus. Porter completed one scrum in the first half, could have been pinged 3-4 plus that ridicous steal on wainwright when he was prevented from presenting.

Some really shitty calls including the penalty right before half time.

Yeah, but we have benefitted from his home bias in the past so you win some, you lose some. It might have affected the scoreline ab it and handed us some ball. But we didn't look like we knew what to do with it. Frankly we didn't look like the team knew each others names so I don't think it changed the result overall.

See, I disagree while your backs look lost a couple of penalties driven into the corner would have given you some opportunities

[Mikey Brown]

Are we both fighting over who gets to be underdogs again?

[Sandydragon]

Are we both fighting over who gets to be underdogs again?

No fight this year. Definitely us.

Normally you I agree but times have changed.

[Spiffy]

Wales did look a bit disorganized.
Adams is not a 13 (but he's a great wing) and the 12/13 pairing of Tompkins/Adams looked shaky in defence and did nothing in attack.
LRZ looked as though he were carrying his warm up injury the whole game and probably should not have started.
Liam Williams is not the player he was a couple of seasons ago.
In the pack, Wales can come up with a big tight five, but the three loose forwards looked a bit small for international rugby as a trio.
Losing several front line players to injury makes a big difference to performance when the squad depth is a tad limited in quality.
Still think there's a good chance of beating Scotland next week with a few changes in Wales selection.

[Mikey Brown]

Are we both fighting over who gets to be underdogs again?

No fight this year. Definitely us.

Normally you I agree but times have changed.

Hold your horses. There's still plenty of time for Hogg and Russell to clash heads in training or something.

[Sandydragon]

Wales did look a bit disorganized.
Adams is not a 13 (but he's a great wing) and the 12/13 pairing of Tompkins/Adams looked shaky in defence and did nothing in attack.
LRZ looked as though he were carrying his warm up injury the whole game and probably should not have started.
Liam Williams is not the player he was a couple of seasons ago.
In the pack, Wales can come up with a big tight five, but the three loose forwards looked a bit small for international rugby as a trio.
Losing several front line players to injury makes a big difference to performance when the squad depth is a tad limited in quality.
Still think there's a good chance of beating Scotland next week with a few changes in Wales selection.

Liam Williams definitely isnt the Lions class full back of a few years ago. He still has credit in the bank and he did a lot of stuff that was good on Saturday, but he is making more mistakes now than he did previously.

Adams was our best attacking player on Saturday but was hopelessly out of his depth in defence. He should start on the wing. Tompkins made a shed load of tackles, but often looks like he is trying too hard to be clever in attack when we sometimes just need to get over the mainline. Maybe Halaholo next to him would help there.

LRZ was definitely off the pace.

[switchskier]

Are we both fighting over who gets to be underdogs again?

No fight this year. Definitely us.

Normally you I agree but times have changed.

That's the sort of definite no-nonsense mentality that favourites have. Winning is as natural and expected for the Welsh as complaining about Irish referees, you expect to do it. Scotland will always be underdogs in Cardiff. Just look what happened when the Ospreys played Edinburgh recently.

[Sandydragon]

Are we both fighting over who gets to be underdogs again?

No fight this year. Definitely us.

Normally you I agree but times have changed.

That's the sort of definite no-nonsense mentality that favourites have. Winning is as natural and expected for the Welsh as complaining about Irish referees, you expect to do it. Scotland will always be underdogs in Cardiff. Just look what happened when the Ospreys played Edinburgh recently.

Maybe although the last time we played Scotland in wales, admittedly not in Cardiff, Scotland won. I doubt (hope) that we will be as bad again as we were on Saturday, but it’s a big ask to turn that performance around.

[newgalesurf]

That was atrocious.

In all the regions and Welsh qualified English players we couldn't find 2 centres to take the field. Can we declare this experiment over. Adam looked lost in defense and horribly exposed

Did Moriarty even get on the pitch (gave up watching after 65). Where were the impact subs that could have changed the game when it was beginning to get away

This is gonna be a long 6N campaign. Pivac has to earn his money now and show last year was not a fluked 6N win

[newgalesurf]

No fight this year. Definitely us.

Normally you I agree but times have changed.

That's the sort of definite no-nonsense mentality that favourites have. Winning is as natural and expected for the Welsh as complaining about Irish referees, you expect to do it. Scotland will always be underdogs in Cardiff. Just look what happened when the Ospreys played Edinburgh recently.

Maybe although the last time we played Scotland in wales, admittedly not in Cardiff, Scotland won. I doubt (hope) that we will be as bad again as we were on Saturday, but it’s a big ask to turn that performance around.

We are favourites for the Wooden Spoon after that - even Italy will be licking their chops

[Sandydragon]

That was atrocious.

In all the regions and Welsh qualified English players we couldn't find 2 centres to take the field. Can we declare this experiment over. Adam looked lost in defense and horribly exposed

Did Moriarty even get on the pitch (gave up watching after 65). Where were the impact subs that could have changed the game when it was beginning to get away

This is gonna be a long 6N campaign. Pivac has to earn his money now and show last year was not a fluked 6N win

Moriarty came on and looked abrasive. I actually noticed him playing which was an improvement over Jenkins who was anonymous throughout. Ireland are the sort of team where we need to play a a Lydiate type blindside. But in lieu of that I’ll take one with some abrasiveness.

The game looked a bit better when the inpactnsubs came on but I wonder if Ireland had their minds in France by that point.

[Son of Mathonwy]

One thing to put this result in perspective:

We lost 26-3 to Ireland in the 2014 6N, and we did not have too many players missing. Although Ireland were fully loaded with POC, BOD, Sexton, Best, D'Arcy, POM etc. This was the time when Gatland seemed to have run out of ideas and Priestland was losing confidence.

So things have been worse, and at least we have the return of all those players to look forward to.