COVID19

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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: COVID19

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Galfon wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Galfon wrote: 7-day rollin' avg..
Cool, of course. Do you have a link for that data? Is it behind a paywall?
Same place as before - ft.com (coronavirus tracked)
 'epidemic trajectory' link takes you there too if you land at the global overview (- all free to view.)
...they keep doing tweaks, so you can type a country to highlight (up to 5) or click on a curve/line of interest, select any point and it shows the sdra at that point.

Re. China, given that several days ago comparisons between Shanghai & Isle of Skye:.
Wuhan ->->
 -> Shanghai (popn. 24M) : 520 miles,
Covid deaths 6.
-> Skye (popn.10K): 5400 miles,
Covid deaths 9.
are they already immune in them parts ??
I get it, you have to painstakingly pull out each number. I was hoping there was a table somewhere :(

Still a great page though, I cannot complain really.
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: COVID19

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Banquo wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Banquo wrote: You are a demanding fella aren't you? :). For me, simply, responsibility can be shared in terms of achieving/executing 'tasks' (e.g. SAGE, PHE, NHSE, DOH, Govt), but accountability cannot eg Govt.
Not really how I see it. I think both can be shared - you can have shared responsibility, you can have shared accountability. Of course it's much better - in both cases - when there is no sharing, or at least when one person or entity is ultimately responsible/accountable.
So from a programmatic viewpoint- Responsibility focuses on defined stuff that must be in place to achieve a goal. Accountability is tied to the successful completion of overall goals and taking responsibility for everything that happens as a result of the actions that were taken. Ultimately you need a single place to point the finger at, and that's accountability. Any further quibbles, ask someone else!
Yeah, I don't completely agree with those definitions. Per the dictionary, "accountable" has a narrow meaning. "Responsible" can mean accountable, but it can have several different (but related) meanings:

"accountable" - obliged to give a reckoning or explanation for actions or decisions
"responsible" - 1) obliged to carry out a duty or care for something
- 2) having to account for one's actions (ie = accountable)
- 3) being the cause of something
- 4) trustworthy
- 5) involving important duties

When I say, the government is responsible for the state of the UK's health system, I mean in senses 2) and 3) [although 1) and 5) do apply to their position], as follows:

2) they have to account for their actions and decisions (ie they are accountable), but also

3) they are the cause of the situation, in the following sense. They are not the cause of every single precise detail of the operation of the NHS (althought they are for PHE) - they didn't start with a blank sheet in 2010. However they are entirely the cause of the state of functionality of the UK's health system, that is what it does and how well it does it. If they wanted to increase capacity here, or add functionality here, or reduce this or that, then while they may not have had complete freedom in how they achieved it, they have had 10 years to achieve it. They are the cause of it whether they built new functionality, destroyed functionality or maintained functionality.
As I originally said, semantics, and as I later said, quibble elsewhere :). This govt is accountable in my eyes for the outturn of the crisis- accountability encompasses responsibility as I said, albeit in a programmatic framing.
I was trying to let this go but sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with pedantry :)

Just wondering though, your definitions seem a bit idiosyncratic; how do you relate them to the dictionary definitions?
Banquo
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Re: COVID19

Post by Banquo »

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Banquo wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote: Not really how I see it. I think both can be shared - you can have shared responsibility, you can have shared accountability. Of course it's much better - in both cases - when there is no sharing, or at least when one person or entity is ultimately responsible/accountable.


Yeah, I don't completely agree with those definitions. Per the dictionary, "accountable" has a narrow meaning. "Responsible" can mean accountable, but it can have several different (but related) meanings:

"accountable" - obliged to give a reckoning or explanation for actions or decisions
"responsible" - 1) obliged to carry out a duty or care for something
- 2) having to account for one's actions (ie = accountable)
- 3) being the cause of something
- 4) trustworthy
- 5) involving important duties

When I say, the government is responsible for the state of the UK's health system, I mean in senses 2) and 3) [although 1) and 5) do apply to their position], as follows:

2) they have to account for their actions and decisions (ie they are accountable), but also

3) they are the cause of the situation, in the following sense. They are not the cause of every single precise detail of the operation of the NHS (althought they are for PHE) - they didn't start with a blank sheet in 2010. However they are entirely the cause of the state of functionality of the UK's health system, that is what it does and how well it does it. If they wanted to increase capacity here, or add functionality here, or reduce this or that, then while they may not have had complete freedom in how they achieved it, they have had 10 years to achieve it. They are the cause of it whether they built new functionality, destroyed functionality or maintained functionality.
As I originally said, semantics, and as I later said, quibble elsewhere :). This govt is accountable in my eyes for the outturn of the crisis- accountability encompasses responsibility as I said, albeit in a programmatic framing.
I was trying to let this go but sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with pedantry :)

Just wondering though, your definitions seem a bit idiosyncratic; how do you relate them to the dictionary definitions?
Standard stuff in my work and career.
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Which Tyler
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Re: COVID19

Post by Which Tyler »

Son of Mathonwy wrote: I was trying to let this go but sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with pedantry :)

Just wondering though, your definitions seem a bit idiosyncratic; how do you relate them to the dictionary definitions?
Define "idiosyncratic"...
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morepork
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Re: COVID19

Post by morepork »

That's just like, your opinion man.
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Galfon
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Re: COVID19

Post by Galfon »

Baldness considered to be an indicator for severity of infection, linked to hormone levels..
Suppressant treatment could be considered to help fight the disease. :|

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-heal ... ion-widget

So it appears if you're over-50, overweight, BAME, diabetic...and with hair-loss, stay extra-extra-safe.
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Stones of granite
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Re: COVID19

Post by Stones of granite »

Galfon wrote:Baldness considered to be an indicator for severity of infection, linked to hormone levels..
Suppressant treatment could be considered to help fight the disease. :|

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-heal ... ion-widget

So it appears if you're over-50, overweight, BAME, diabetic...and with hair-loss, stay extra-extra-safe.
You missed out poor. Admittedly, there is some overlap.
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Banquo
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Re: COVID19

Post by Banquo »

Either the best or worst tour in history, depending on your viewpoint
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52900959
Digby
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Re: COVID19

Post by Digby »

Banquo wrote:Either the best or worst tour in history, depending on your viewpoint
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52900959
The no beer answers that for me
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Galfon
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Re: COVID19

Post by Galfon »

Stones of granite wrote: You missed out poor. Admittedly, there is some overlap.
Yes, a big factor; the density of housing in urban areas must make things nearly impossible once it gets a grip.
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: COVID19

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Which Tyler wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote: I was trying to let this go but sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with pedantry :)

Just wondering though, your definitions seem a bit idiosyncratic; how do you relate them to the dictionary definitions?
Define "idiosyncratic"...
I have my own idiosyncratic definition for it ...
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: COVID19

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Banquo wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Banquo wrote: As I originally said, semantics, and as I later said, quibble elsewhere :). This govt is accountable in my eyes for the outturn of the crisis- accountability encompasses responsibility as I said, albeit in a programmatic framing.
I was trying to let this go but sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with pedantry :)

Just wondering though, your definitions seem a bit idiosyncratic; how do you relate them to the dictionary definitions?
Standard stuff in my work and career.
I think you may be using those terms in a way that's specific to your area of work; I don't think they quite have that meaning to most people.

If I started using "trivial" outside of maths or "coupon" outside of finance, that might be confusing too...
Banquo
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Re: COVID19

Post by Banquo »

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Banquo wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote: I was trying to let this go but sometimes I'm just overwhelmed with pedantry :)

Just wondering though, your definitions seem a bit idiosyncratic; how do you relate them to the dictionary definitions?
Standard stuff in my work and career.
I think you may be using those terms in a way that's specific to your area of work; I don't think they quite have that meaning to most people.

If I started using "trivial" outside of maths or "coupon" outside of finance, that might be confusing too...
Can I take it you've never run a programme? I'm an exec director of an NHS service provider (CIC), having spent 30 + years in several big IT firms in different roles and sectors, so its hardly narrow. In any case, I started with what was my own personal view of how to describe the working parts and their 'roles', I also said it was a tad semantic, and you wanted to ramble on about it. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in what 'most people' would understand by the terms, even accepting your opinion on that- my teams certainly do, and I certainly am accountable for their actions ultimately.
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: COVID19

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Banquo wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Banquo wrote: Standard stuff in my work and career.
I think you may be using those terms in a way that's specific to your area of work; I don't think they quite have that meaning to most people.

If I started using "trivial" outside of maths or "coupon" outside of finance, that might be confusing too...
Can I take it you've never run a programme? I'm the COO of an NHS service provider, having spent 30 + years in several big IT firms in different roles and sectors, so its hardly narrow. In any case, I started with what was my own personal view of how to describe the working parts and their 'roles', I also said it was a tad semantic, and you wanted to ramble on about it. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in what 'most people' would understand by the terms, even accepting your opinion on that- my teams certainly do, and I certainly am accountable for their actions ultimately.
You said accountable, I said responsible, I was perfectly happy to broadly agree with you on that and leave it there but you insisted that you didn't quite agree, so I asked you to explain.
Banquo
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Re: COVID19

Post by Banquo »

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Banquo wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote: I think you may be using those terms in a way that's specific to your area of work; I don't think they quite have that meaning to most people.

If I started using "trivial" outside of maths or "coupon" outside of finance, that might be confusing too...
Can I take it you've never run a programme? I'm the COO of an NHS service provider, having spent 30 + years in several big IT firms in different roles and sectors, so its hardly narrow. In any case, I started with what was my own personal view of how to describe the working parts and their 'roles', I also said it was a tad semantic, and you wanted to ramble on about it. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in what 'most people' would understand by the terms, even accepting your opinion on that- my teams certainly do, and I certainly am accountable for their actions ultimately.
You said accountable, I said responsible, I was perfectly happy to broadly agree with you on that and leave it there but you insisted that you didn't quite agree, so I asked you to explain.
Insisted? " I prefer accountable, but that's a tad semantic ". Then it all kicked off :lol: :lol:, though i was in hindsight also complicit in perpetuating the verbiage.
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: COVID19

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Banquo wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Banquo wrote: Can I take it you've never run a programme? I'm the COO of an NHS service provider, having spent 30 + years in several big IT firms in different roles and sectors, so its hardly narrow. In any case, I started with what was my own personal view of how to describe the working parts and their 'roles', I also said it was a tad semantic, and you wanted to ramble on about it. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in what 'most people' would understand by the terms, even accepting your opinion on that- my teams certainly do, and I certainly am accountable for their actions ultimately.
You said accountable, I said responsible, I was perfectly happy to broadly agree with you on that and leave it there but you insisted that you didn't quite agree, so I asked you to explain.
Insisted? " I prefer accountable, but that's a tad semantic ". Then it all kicked off :lol: :lol:, though i was in hindsight also complicit in perpetuating the verbiage.
Okay, no worries. Enough verbiage already! :)
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: COVID19

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Son of Mathonwy wrote:The UK went ahead of Spain in the per capita deaths today, based on the (underestimated) official deaths. So, ignoring tiny San Marino and Andorra, there's only Belgium ahead of us.

In the rolling 7-day average deaths, Sweden leads, then Brazil, then UK, then Peru ... all jostling for position.
Per capita rolling 7-day average: Brazil leads, Sweden & Peru second, Mexico lurches up into fourth, UK fifth.
Banquo
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Re: COVID19

Post by Banquo »

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Banquo wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote: You said accountable, I said responsible, I was perfectly happy to broadly agree with you on that and leave it there but you insisted that you didn't quite agree, so I asked you to explain.
Insisted? " I prefer accountable, but that's a tad semantic ". Then it all kicked off :lol: :lol:, though i was in hindsight also complicit in perpetuating the verbiage.
Okay, no worries. Enough verbiage already! :)
:lol: fair.
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Sandydragon
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Re: COVID19

Post by Sandydragon »

Banquo wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Banquo wrote: Can I take it you've never run a programme? I'm the COO of an NHS service provider, having spent 30 + years in several big IT firms in different roles and sectors, so its hardly narrow. In any case, I started with what was my own personal view of how to describe the working parts and their 'roles', I also said it was a tad semantic, and you wanted to ramble on about it. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in what 'most people' would understand by the terms, even accepting your opinion on that- my teams certainly do, and I certainly am accountable for their actions ultimately.
You said accountable, I said responsible, I was perfectly happy to broadly agree with you on that and leave it there but you insisted that you didn't quite agree, so I asked you to explain.
Insisted? " I prefer accountable, but that's a tad semantic ". Then it all kicked off :lol: :lol:, though i was in hindsight also complicit in perpetuating the verbiage.
Glad you both agree! If you start mentioning PRINCE2 methodolgies on here though the sanctions will be harsh!
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Sandydragon
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Re: COVID19

Post by Sandydragon »

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:The UK went ahead of Spain in the per capita deaths today, based on the (underestimated) official deaths. So, ignoring tiny San Marino and Andorra, there's only Belgium ahead of us.

In the rolling 7-day average deaths, Sweden leads, then Brazil, then UK, then Peru ... all jostling for position.
Per capita rolling 7-day average: Brazil leads, Sweden & Peru second, Mexico lurches up into fourth, UK fifth.
And in the face of that depressing news, the Brazilian president wants to immediately relax all restrictions on movement.
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: COVID19

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Sandydragon wrote:
Banquo wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote: You said accountable, I said responsible, I was perfectly happy to broadly agree with you on that and leave it there but you insisted that you didn't quite agree, so I asked you to explain.
Insisted? " I prefer accountable, but that's a tad semantic ". Then it all kicked off :lol: :lol:, though i was in hindsight also complicit in perpetuating the verbiage.
Glad you both agree! If you start mentioning PRINCE2 methodolgies on here though the sanctions will be harsh!
I don't know what that means. And I think I'd like it to stay that way. :)
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: COVID19

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Sandydragon wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:The UK went ahead of Spain in the per capita deaths today, based on the (underestimated) official deaths. So, ignoring tiny San Marino and Andorra, there's only Belgium ahead of us.

In the rolling 7-day average deaths, Sweden leads, then Brazil, then UK, then Peru ... all jostling for position.
Per capita rolling 7-day average: Brazil leads, Sweden & Peru second, Mexico lurches up into fourth, UK fifth.
And in the face of that depressing news, the Brazilian president wants to immediately relax all restrictions on movement.
Well, Boris and Cummings will be pleased: Brazil will overtake the UK in total deaths fairly soon.
Digby
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Re: COVID19

Post by Digby »

Sandydragon wrote:
Banquo wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote: You said accountable, I said responsible, I was perfectly happy to broadly agree with you on that and leave it there but you insisted that you didn't quite agree, so I asked you to explain.
Insisted? " I prefer accountable, but that's a tad semantic ". Then it all kicked off :lol: :lol:, though i was in hindsight also complicit in perpetuating the verbiage.
Glad you both agree! If you start mentioning PRINCE2 methodolgies on here though the sanctions will be harsh!

I might soon be giving classes on ITIL and Prince. A horrible future indeed but the money is decent
Banquo
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Re: COVID19

Post by Banquo »

Digby wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
Banquo wrote: Insisted? " I prefer accountable, but that's a tad semantic ". Then it all kicked off :lol: :lol:, though i was in hindsight also complicit in perpetuating the verbiage.
Glad you both agree! If you start mentioning PRINCE2 methodolgies on here though the sanctions will be harsh!

I might soon be giving classes on ITIL and Prince. A horrible future indeed but the money is decent
charlatan
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Sandydragon
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Re: COVID19

Post by Sandydragon »

Digby wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
Banquo wrote: Insisted? " I prefer accountable, but that's a tad semantic ". Then it all kicked off :lol: :lol:, though i was in hindsight also complicit in perpetuating the verbiage.
Glad you both agree! If you start mentioning PRINCE2 methodolgies on here though the sanctions will be harsh!

I might soon be giving classes on ITIL and Prince. A horrible future indeed but the money is decent
ITIL never work!
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