America

[Puja]

[Digby]

I know a little about the Daughters of the Confederacy, and that little would be enough to suggest it's not my cup of tea. But if we're going to start letting things get destroyed because some people take issue with them it's a slippery slope, society just cannot function in that manner. It's almost immaterial what the property is, for instance I don't like gun stores, but I don't think people with legal businesses should be attacked just because I don't like them, nor reporters from news channels I don't like attacked. And the violence does spread, police stations have come under attack, fire departments, private businesses

There's a difference between a "gun store" or any other such private business being burned down, and a lobby group that literally glorifies historic racism, with ties to white supremacist organisations, or a reporter that signal-boosts for a racist thug in the white house being subjected to an attack during a protest precipitated by a series of incidents informed by blatant racism and white privilege.

It has nothing to do with whether I like them or not (and for the record, Fox News and the Daughters of the Confederacy are scum) - it's a reaction to their presence, the consequence of their actions and the fact that at least one of those two groups shouldn't even exist in the first place.

Nor do I see how police stations coming under attack should garner any sympathy when they are an institution that has done its level best to not only uphold a broken status quo, but have disproportionately targeted black citizens with little to no repurcussions unless preceded by an outcry.

Lamenting the destruction of confederate property highlights just how little you seem to understand what's happening.

If you want an organisation not to exist then you need to protest their existence legally, the individual shouldn't be deciding their existence annoys them so much it justifies them taking the law into their own hands. Whether it's a property linked to the Daughter's of the Confederacy, or Ahmaud Arbery being murdered individuals should not be considered free to act as they see fit. You and I would likely agree the killing of Arbery looks to be in no way justified based on anything in the public domain, but we know there are those who will for instance take a perverse view of the stand your ground doctrine and no matter stand your ground has feck all to do with this killing think that justifies their view, and I struggle to see how you can open the door just for the extremists you might like.

I'll not argue the point I understand very little of what's happening, though I've not heard from many who do, there's confusion, pain, anger and at times a mob mentality, and a mob mentality in both the protesters and the police/guard, and all atop a long history of abuse. So no, I don't understand it, but given nobody else has been able to address the problem I'm supposing I'm not alone.

[Mikey Brown]

More stories of police and National Guard just unnecessarily escalating:







Puja

Well this is fucking grim. I'm not sure what it's doing for me that I'm waking up every morning and immediately reading this stuff. I caught myself there about to use the phrase "first world problems", referring to the fucking US. I guess that says something.

The video of the Police removing the windscreen is misleading though, it's been smashed and they're trying to remove it so that they can see out of it.

[Mikey Brown]

Christ. I hadn't even seen that another unarmed man has been killed by Police last night and now this?

[Digby]

Do you think there hasn't been any sort of peaceful protest over social conditions that allows organisations like the Daughters of the Confederacy to not only thrive, but be allowed to distort history and glorify the racist South, leading to statues of a cunt like Robert E Lee to be built in Union states and states that didn't even exist during the Civil War?

What do you think the "taking a knee" movement was? Taking a knee during the national anthem to protest police brutality seemed peaceful enough to me, and look where that got Colin Kaepernik. Do you think that #blacklivesmatter was born this week? You're arguing as if there is some sort of equity between races in the United States, when that has demonstrably been proven time and time again to not be the case. Peaceful protests have either been ignored, shouted down or silenced through violence. Getting their own into the highest office in the land got them nowhere.

Just because peaceful protesting hasn't worked, or being more specific hasn't worked yet, doesn't entitle an individual or group to switch to aggressive protests. And I'm not arguing there's equity nor anything close, but there has been some progress even if they have been many steps backwards too, and the violence detracts from the progress.

What happened to Kaepernick doesn't seem that bad, I rather liked the movement that saw players and others taking a knee, I don't like that some players then found getting new contracts problematic though at least in Kaepernick's case it seems only to have boosted his earnings, but I merely conclude their protest is a work in progress. What's happened and what's happening isn't fair, but the only path forward I see that looks acceptable is more peaceful protests, and that probably means slow progress and still more setbacks to come.

Two queries however. I'm going to assume you've been critical of governments not doing enough to lockdown during this pandemic, my apologies if I've misread your sticking it to the establishment virtue signalling world view, given that do you take issue with the protesters period for going out and help increase the rate of infections or are you arguing against the double standard of racial equality by supporting double standards elsewhere? Also if you're against peaceful protests because they don't work what actions based on violence have worked, are there large bodies of successful violence I'm overlooking in my concerns about such?

[Stom]

Enough of the racist allegations.

So here's the thing...

It really does depend on what you consider racism?

Is racism just the act of being overtly racist?

Or is enabling racists, not standing up and saying "this is wrong" also racist?

I tend to come down on the latter side. Which means, in my book, Digby's reaction was racist.

It's insanely important every single person stands up and condemns racism immediately and without couching it. By putting a "but" in there, you're giving systemic racism a chance to spread, to evolve and to get worse.

And it is getting worse.

Racism, sexism, homophobia...

We're meant to be living in an age that is more accepting of other people, it's global. But outside a few pockets, people are routinely treated incredibly different because of their race, religion, sexual preference, or even their fucking sex!

It's insane, it's wrong, and if you find any way to couch your condemnation, you are part of the problem.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Christ. I hadn't even seen that another unarmed man has been killed by Police last night and now this?

Switching off police cameras without justifiation ought to be some kind of offence or at least require independent investigation.

[Mikey Brown]

Do you think there hasn't been any sort of peaceful protest over social conditions that allows organisations like the Daughters of the Confederacy to not only thrive, but be allowed to distort history and glorify the racist South, leading to statues of a cunt like Robert E Lee to be built in Union states and states that didn't even exist during the Civil War?

What do you think the "taking a knee" movement was? Taking a knee during the national anthem to protest police brutality seemed peaceful enough to me, and look where that got Colin Kaepernik. Do you think that #blacklivesmatter was born this week? You're arguing as if there is some sort of equity between races in the United States, when that has demonstrably been proven time and time again to not be the case. Peaceful protests have either been ignored, shouted down or silenced through violence. Getting their own into the highest office in the land got them nowhere.

Just because peaceful protesting hasn't worked, or being more specific hasn't worked yet, doesn't entitle an individual or group to switch to aggressive protests. And I'm not arguing there's equity nor anything close, but there has been some progress even if they have been many steps backwards too, and the violence detracts from the progress.

What happened to Kaepernick doesn't seem that bad, I rather liked the movement that saw players and others taking a knee, I don't like that some players then found getting new contracts problematic though at least in Kaepernick's case it seems only to have boosted his earnings, but I merely conclude their protest is a work in progress. What's happened and what's happening isn't fair, but the only path forward I see that looks acceptable is more peaceful protests, and that probably means slow progress and still more setbacks to come.

Two queries however. I'm going to assume you've been critical of governments not doing enough to lockdown during this pandemic, my apologies if I've misread your sticking it to the establishment virtue signalling world view, given that do you take issue with the protesters period for going out and help increase the rate of infections or are you arguing against the double standard of racial equality by supporting double standards elsewhere? Also if you're against peaceful protests because they don't work what actions based on violence have worked, are there large bodies of successful violence I'm overlooking in my concerns about such?

[Mikey Brown]

[Son of Mathonwy]

This is how you communicate your inability to grasp context and appropriate focus with a stunningly restricted vocabulary. Imagine being compelled to indulge this fucking idiot in the middle of managing acute public health, economic and social crises. Stay out of the kitchen Mr. Trump as you very clearly cannot stand the heat. Why the fuck is this muppet even remotely considered an option in the upcoming election? Beyond sick of this shit.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... s.amp.html

What in the name of fuck was that that I just listened to. What.

Puja

Love to see the transcript of that stream of consciousness/shit.

He's a monster. But because of the me-first, dog-eat-dog, every-man-for-himself culture, this will have its appeal, to racists and sociopaths obviously, but also to frightened, ignorant americans. 8 years of Obama could only begin to chip away at that poisonous culture, it would take a generation of Obamas to really change things. Unfortunately, the Democrats don't have an Obama production line ... and I'm not sure they'd even be interested in one.

[Digby]

Do you think there hasn't been any sort of peaceful protest over social conditions that allows organisations like the Daughters of the Confederacy to not only thrive, but be allowed to distort history and glorify the racist South, leading to statues of a cunt like Robert E Lee to be built in Union states and states that didn't even exist during the Civil War?

What do you think the "taking a knee" movement was? Taking a knee during the national anthem to protest police brutality seemed peaceful enough to me, and look where that got Colin Kaepernik. Do you think that #blacklivesmatter was born this week? You're arguing as if there is some sort of equity between races in the United States, when that has demonstrably been proven time and time again to not be the case. Peaceful protests have either been ignored, shouted down or silenced through violence. Getting their own into the highest office in the land got them nowhere.

Just because peaceful protesting hasn't worked, or being more specific hasn't worked yet, doesn't entitle an individual or group to switch to aggressive protests. And I'm not arguing there's equity nor anything close, but there has been some progress even if they have been many steps backwards too, and the violence detracts from the progress.

What happened to Kaepernick doesn't seem that bad, I rather liked the movement that saw players and others taking a knee, I don't like that some players then found getting new contracts problematic though at least in Kaepernick's case it seems only to have boosted his earnings, but I merely conclude their protest is a work in progress. What's happened and what's happening isn't fair, but the only path forward I see that looks acceptable is more peaceful protests, and that probably means slow progress and still more setbacks to come.

Two queries however. I'm going to assume you've been critical of governments not doing enough to lockdown during this pandemic, my apologies if I've misread your sticking it to the establishment virtue signalling world view, given that do you take issue with the protesters period for going out and help increase the rate of infections or are you arguing against the double standard of racial equality by supporting double standards elsewhere? Also if you're against peaceful protests because they don't work what actions based on violence have worked, are there large bodies of successful violence I'm overlooking in my concerns about such?

Again I simply don't conclude an absence of progress justifies violence, though I certainly wouldn't conclude the struggles should cease. I'm not saying a request to endure, suffer and show patience is a nice message to deliver, but it's what there is

[Digby]

Enough of the racist allegations.

So here's the thing...

It really does depend on what you consider racism?

Is racism just the act of being overtly racist?

Or is enabling racists, not standing up and saying "this is wrong" also racist?

I tend to come down on the latter side. Which means, in my book, Digby's reaction was racist.

It's insanely important every single person stands up and condemns racism immediately and without couching it. By putting a "but" in there, you're giving systemic racism a chance to spread, to evolve and to get worse.

And it is getting worse.

Racism, sexism, homophobia...

We're meant to be living in an age that is more accepting of other people, it's global. But outside a few pockets, people are routinely treated incredibly different because of their race, religion, sexual preference, or even their fucking sex!

It's insane, it's wrong, and if you find any way to couch your condemnation, you are part of the problem.

It's getting better and worse. On balance I'd suggest things are getting better, albeit too slowly. I'm not sure what you mean by couching condemnation, partly because there are so many different acts led by so many different actors it's tricky to lump them together and assign one over-arching description. I certainly don't share the view that regretting the violence is or should be equated with racism, and I don't share the view that saying destruction is wrong enables racism, not least as many of the most violent acts would be owned by the racists and bigots of society.

[Digby]

Tldr, very likely wasn't going to change my mind that violence doesn't work even if you've lost patience anyway. Though there is a slight distraction here in that the non-violent protestors likely far outweigh the idiots, and yet the idiots have control of the conversation

[Stom]

Enough of the racist allegations.

So here's the thing...

It really does depend on what you consider racism?

Is racism just the act of being overtly racist?

Or is enabling racists, not standing up and saying "this is wrong" also racist?

I tend to come down on the latter side. Which means, in my book, Digby's reaction was racist.

It's insanely important every single person stands up and condemns racism immediately and without couching it. By putting a "but" in there, you're giving systemic racism a chance to spread, to evolve and to get worse.

And it is getting worse.

Racism, sexism, homophobia...

We're meant to be living in an age that is more accepting of other people, it's global. But outside a few pockets, people are routinely treated incredibly different because of their race, religion, sexual preference, or even their fucking sex!

It's insane, it's wrong, and if you find any way to couch your condemnation, you are part of the problem.

It's getting better and worse. On balance I'd suggest things are getting better, albeit too slowly. I'm not sure what you mean by couching condemnation, partly because there are so many different acts led by so many different actors it's tricky to lump them together and assign one over-arching description. I certainly don't share the view that regretting the violence is or should be equated with racism, and I don't share the view that saying destruction is wrong enables racism, not least as many of the most violent acts would be owned by the racists and bigots of society.

I'm saying that, considering what is coming to light with people trying to frame the black protestors, talking about the violence in the same breath as police brutality is wrong.

It is not part of the same discussion. They have no other choice. They are being marginalised like hell, beaten and sprayed with chemical weapons...

Of course they're going to be angry And rightly so.

There should be no room for discussion on minor details here, that's what the racists want you to do. If you focus on the minutiae, you can so easily forget about the big picture. If you are whipped into a frenzy of "these people shouldn't be destroying property", you're going to forget the point.

That's what Fox want you to do. That's what Trump, Pence, the white landowners in the US want you to do. To concentrate on the little details so you forget this is all because an entire group of people are being marginalised and treated like slaves.

It needs to stop.

[Donny osmond]

this is from Maajid Nawaz:

Dear modern Left,

Just stop playing these games. Non-violent resistance is not wrong *now* just because Trump didn’t listen to Kaepernick & others *back then*. Just as it was not wrong *then*, when MLK faced police violence and persevered.

Our moral compass must not revolve around opposing the last position Trump took just to score points & satisfy our narcissism by playing to our petty echo chambers.

We minorities are not pawns in your petty left/right politicking.

This is effectively a betrayal of minorities, and it delivers us straight into Putin’s and Xi’s playbook. By refusing to draw a clear moral line at the violence in your unoriginal, predictable & recycled punditry, you ensure that middle America remains convinced of the perception of the violent black man and violent Muslim, and only the hard right, and populist Trump benefits from that.
‪
I am a survivor of the War on Terror. ‬I observed in horror from my Egyptian prison cell as America used 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iraq. I have seen how violence hijacked our Islamist utopianism, and after I abandoned that misguided ideology, I watched with increasing despair at how violence destroyed our dreams during the Arab Spring. Violence only ever leads to more and more state tyranny, by providing pretext for more and more draconian security laws. ‬

Why is this not obvious to people?

Our way is the way of Mahatma, Madiba, Martin, Malik al-Shabaaz & Marley. We do not need your Marx nor your Mao.
Non-violent resistance is the only moral and ethical and practical way forward #BlackLivesMatter

[Mikey Brown]

As ever makes some reasonable arguments, but really takes the edge off it by directing this at "the modern left" whoever the fuck that is. He really is spectacularly bad at writing though.

[Digby]

I'm saying that, considering what is coming to light with people trying to frame the black protestors, talking about the violence in the same breath as police brutality is wrong.

It is not part of the same discussion. They have no other choice. They are being marginalised like hell, beaten and sprayed with chemical weapons...

Of course they're going to be angry And rightly so.

There should be no room for discussion on minor details here, that's what the racists want you to do. If you focus on the minutiae, you can so easily forget about the big picture. If you are whipped into a frenzy of "these people shouldn't be destroying property", you're going to forget the point.

That's what Fox want you to do. That's what Trump, Pence, the white landowners in the US want you to do. To concentrate on the little details so you forget this is all because an entire group of people are being marginalised and treated like slaves.

It needs to stop.

Those undertaking the violence and the looting, and that's probably the extreme right as well as the extreme left and those against racial prejudice, do have other choices if the aim is to lesson the unfair treatment in society. And violence and looting and not minor details, though there is room to stress more the sheer numbers who are peacefully protesting and not engaging in social disorder.

As Obama noted in the speech or essay that Morepork linked the voter turnout at local level is really low. If groups seeking change want actual change then registering voters and casting their votes is a significant way to start making some real change. Given the apathy around voting in local and state elections they could probably start to achieve results well beyond their actual numbers.

I don't know as an aside if anyone caught the comments from the Houston Police Chief, but I thought he spoke rather well when asked about some of Trump's comments:

Houston police chief Acevedo was asked to respond to the leaked call, by CNN’s Christiane Amanpour, who put the question to Acevedo whether it was the right environment for “police today to go out and dominate”.


Acevedo told CNN, “Let me just say this to the President of the United States on behalf of the police chief's in this country, please, if you don't have something constructive to say, keep your mouth shut because you're putting men and women in their early 20s at risk.”

“This is not about dominating. It's about winning hearts and minds. And let's be clear. We do not want people to confuse kindness with weakness.”

He spoke about the need for leadership, criticising Trump’s message of dominance instead calling for communities to “stand together”.

“We don't want ignorance to ruin what we've got here in Houston and speaking for my colleagues across the country where their officers are being injured, community members are being injured,” he said.

“It’s time to be presidential and not try to be like you're on The Apprentice. This is not Hollywood. This is real life, and real lives are at risk.”

Acevedo says it’s time to “shift this [action] to where it needs to be -- the voting booth.” He cites the reason for the protests was because too many people who are “damaging property never bothered to vote.”

In the 2016 US Presidential election, the black voter turnout fell for the first time in 20 years to 59.6 per cent -- despite recording an all time high of 66.6 per cent in the previous presidential election in 2012.

However, prior to the election 14 states implemented new voting restrictions which included; restricting voter registration, strict voter ID requirements and limiting early voting.

Federal judges found Republicans in the state of North Carolina suppressed black voter turnout with “surgical precision”.

“Let's engage and let's do what we can control which is our own actions, our own hearts and exercise without fail our right to vote”

Avecodo has called on protesters, “You have a choice, lift up your voice, be heard in the voting booth and continue to march peacefully. So the focus remains on bad policing, criminal policing.”

He says the inequality in America is “not just about policing, it’s about society.” He references education, health, access to food -- and “everything that we as human beings, hold near and dear.”

“So please, please don't, don't react to [Trump].

Instead Avecodo says: “The only thing that will happen to overcome hate is love, and love and engagement. Let's engage and let's do what we can control, which is our own actions, our own hearts and exercise without failing our right to vote.”

[Stom]

I'm saying that, considering what is coming to light with people trying to frame the black protestors, talking about the violence in the same breath as police brutality is wrong.

It is not part of the same discussion. They have no other choice. They are being marginalised like hell, beaten and sprayed with chemical weapons...

Of course they're going to be angry And rightly so.

There should be no room for discussion on minor details here, that's what the racists want you to do. If you focus on the minutiae, you can so easily forget about the big picture. If you are whipped into a frenzy of "these people shouldn't be destroying property", you're going to forget the point.

That's what Fox want you to do. That's what Trump, Pence, the white landowners in the US want you to do. To concentrate on the little details so you forget this is all because an entire group of people are being marginalised and treated like slaves.

It needs to stop.

Those undertaking the violence and the looting, and that's probably the extreme right as well as the extreme left and those against racial prejudice, do have other choices if the aim is to lesson the unfair treatment in society. And violence and looting and not minor details, though there is room to stress more the sheer numbers who are peacefully protesting and not engaging in social disorder.

As Obama noted in the speech or essay that Morepork linked the voter turnout at local level is really low. If groups seeking change want actual change then registering voters and casting their votes is a significant way to start making some real change. Given the apathy around voting in local and state elections they could probably start to achieve results well beyond their actual numbers.

I don't know as an aside if anyone caught the comments from the Houston Police Chief, but I thought he spoke rather well when asked about some of Trump's comments:

Houston police chief Acevedo was asked to respond to the leaked call, by CNN’s Christiane Amanpour, who put the question to Acevedo whether it was the right environment for “police today to go out and dominate”.


Acevedo told CNN, “Let me just say this to the President of the United States on behalf of the police chief's in this country, please, if you don't have something constructive to say, keep your mouth shut because you're putting men and women in their early 20s at risk.”

“This is not about dominating. It's about winning hearts and minds. And let's be clear. We do not want people to confuse kindness with weakness.”

He spoke about the need for leadership, criticising Trump’s message of dominance instead calling for communities to “stand together”.

“We don't want ignorance to ruin what we've got here in Houston and speaking for my colleagues across the country where their officers are being injured, community members are being injured,” he said.

“It’s time to be presidential and not try to be like you're on The Apprentice. This is not Hollywood. This is real life, and real lives are at risk.”

Acevedo says it’s time to “shift this [action] to where it needs to be -- the voting booth.” He cites the reason for the protests was because too many people who are “damaging property never bothered to vote.”

In the 2016 US Presidential election, the black voter turnout fell for the first time in 20 years to 59.6 per cent -- despite recording an all time high of 66.6 per cent in the previous presidential election in 2012.

However, prior to the election 14 states implemented new voting restrictions which included; restricting voter registration, strict voter ID requirements and limiting early voting.

Federal judges found Republicans in the state of North Carolina suppressed black voter turnout with “surgical precision”.

“Let's engage and let's do what we can control which is our own actions, our own hearts and exercise without fail our right to vote”

Avecodo has called on protesters, “You have a choice, lift up your voice, be heard in the voting booth and continue to march peacefully. So the focus remains on bad policing, criminal policing.”

He says the inequality in America is “not just about policing, it’s about society.” He references education, health, access to food -- and “everything that we as human beings, hold near and dear.”

“So please, please don't, don't react to [Trump].

Instead Avecodo says: “The only thing that will happen to overcome hate is love, and love and engagement. Let's engage and let's do what we can control, which is our own actions, our own hearts and exercise without failing our right to vote.”

They may not feel they have any other choice, considering the hurdles they'd need to jump to get a sympathetic candidate running, never mind getting them enough votes despite the barracking they'll inevitably take in local, unregulated press.

Look, I'm not really accusing anyone of racism here. Hence my chosen words - not you are racist, but your post is. But the truth is, when you're saying the same things Fox News are saying, and focusing on violence rather than the majority of protests that are not violent, you're playing right into the hands of the racists. Which, in the opinion of many, is just as bad.

It's enabling.

You're lucky to live in the UK, where the level of racism has decreased to underlying tutting and shadowed eyes (perhaps built into the two-faced nature of the British middle class - speaking as a former member myself).

Racism and sexism are linked. They're both perpetrated by a group who sees themselves as superior to the other, oppressed group, and feels threatened by them, so lashes out.

And when you see it every day, be it police violence against black men, domestic violence against women, institutionalised racism preventing gypsy children from getting a good education, and so on...

It becomes more of a problem in your mind.

[Sandydragon]

Enough of the racist allegations.

So here's the thing...

It really does depend on what you consider racism?

Is racism just the act of being overtly racist?

Or is enabling racists, not standing up and saying "this is wrong" also racist?

I tend to come down on the latter side. Which means, in my book, Digby's reaction was racist.

It's insanely important every single person stands up and condemns racism immediately and without couching it. By putting a "but" in there, you're giving systemic racism a chance to spread, to evolve and to get worse.

And it is getting worse.

Racism, sexism, homophobia...

We're meant to be living in an age that is more accepting of other people, it's global. But outside a few pockets, people are routinely treated incredibly different because of their race, religion, sexual preference, or even their fucking sex!

It's insane, it's wrong, and if you find any way to couch your condemnation, you are part of the problem.

Do not label fellow posters as racist. It’s that simple. If you feel someone is being racist make a complaint.

[Puja]

A black friend of mine has shared this in response to all the comments of "At least we're not in America." Britain's nowhere near as bad as the US, but we're hardly in a position where we can feel comfortable about our institutional racism.

101548704_2868865469891979_3621775844306845696_o.jpg

100925352_2868865543225305_4742178270320001024_n.jpg

Puja

[Digby]

It's enabling.

You're lucky to live in the UK, where the level of racism has decreased to underlying tutting and shadowed eyes (perhaps built into the two-faced nature of the British middle class - speaking as a former member myself).

Racism and sexism are linked. They're both perpetrated by a group who sees themselves as superior to the other, oppressed group, and feels threatened by them, so lashes out.

And when you see it every day, be it police violence against black men, domestic violence against women, institutionalised racism preventing gypsy children from getting a good education, and so on...

It becomes more of a problem in your mind.

I will happily agree living in the UK is a fortunate position looking around the globe. We're going to go down different paths of thinking on whether the more combative response is justified and whether it's more helpful than a a more strategised non violent approach, and we'll also think differently around how enabling certain responses are

[Stom]

Enough of the racist allegations.

So here's the thing...

It really does depend on what you consider racism?

Is racism just the act of being overtly racist?

Or is enabling racists, not standing up and saying "this is wrong" also racist?

I tend to come down on the latter side. Which means, in my book, Digby's reaction was racist.

It's insanely important every single person stands up and condemns racism immediately and without couching it. By putting a "but" in there, you're giving systemic racism a chance to spread, to evolve and to get worse.

And it is getting worse.

Racism, sexism, homophobia...

We're meant to be living in an age that is more accepting of other people, it's global. But outside a few pockets, people are routinely treated incredibly different because of their race, religion, sexual preference, or even their fucking sex!

It's insane, it's wrong, and if you find any way to couch your condemnation, you are part of the problem.

Do not label fellow posters as racist. It’s that simple. If you feel someone is being racist make a complaint.

Hence labelling the post as such, not the poster. And I think it's a discussion worth having. Though I wouldn't go out and simply call someone a racist without asking for them to be banned. Which I have done. And he was banned.

[Stom]

It's enabling.

You're lucky to live in the UK, where the level of racism has decreased to underlying tutting and shadowed eyes (perhaps built into the two-faced nature of the British middle class - speaking as a former member myself).

Racism and sexism are linked. They're both perpetrated by a group who sees themselves as superior to the other, oppressed group, and feels threatened by them, so lashes out.

And when you see it every day, be it police violence against black men, domestic violence against women, institutionalised racism preventing gypsy children from getting a good education, and so on...

It becomes more of a problem in your mind.

I will happily agree living in the UK is a fortunate position looking around the globe. We're going to go down different paths of thinking on whether the more combative response is justified and whether it's more helpful than a a more strategised non violent approach, and we'll also think differently around how enabling certain responses are

It's not about more combative responses, but about making certain parts of the narrative more prominent.

By spreading a "violence is wrong, whoever does it" narrative, it detracts from the point in much the same way Trump's "there's good people on both sides" did.

It's irrelevant. It serves one purpose: distraction. It's not about being nuanced. You and I can be nuanced. But Joe average is not going to see things like that. They're going to read the headlines about looting and take a dim view of the black protestors. Even if the looting is actually being done by white police officers trying to make the protestors look bad.

[Sandydragon]

So here's the thing...

It really does depend on what you consider racism?

Is racism just the act of being overtly racist?

Or is enabling racists, not standing up and saying "this is wrong" also racist?

I tend to come down on the latter side. Which means, in my book, Digby's reaction was racist.

It's insanely important every single person stands up and condemns racism immediately and without couching it. By putting a "but" in there, you're giving systemic racism a chance to spread, to evolve and to get worse.

And it is getting worse.

Racism, sexism, homophobia...

We're meant to be living in an age that is more accepting of other people, it's global. But outside a few pockets, people are routinely treated incredibly different because of their race, religion, sexual preference, or even their fucking sex!

It's insane, it's wrong, and if you find any way to couch your condemnation, you are part of the problem.

Do not label fellow posters as racist. It’s that simple. If you feel someone is being racist make a complaint.

Hence labelling the post as such, not the poster. And I think it's a discussion worth having. Though I wouldn't go out and simply call someone a racist without asking for them to be banned. Which I have done. And he was banned.

I’ll refer you to the board rules. Insulting other posters, which can include calling them racist, isn’t permitted. I don’t accept your argument that suggests that unless you wholeheartedly agree with the current protests, including the violence, then you are condoning racism. That is nonsense.

[Digby]

The publicity around the autopsy isn't exactly deafening. The official autopsy noted the homicide was caused by "a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained by law enforcement officer(s)." whereas the independent report requested by the family shifted the narrative a little in concluding Floyd's death was a "homicide caused by asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to a lack of blood flow to the brain".

If the official report does stand I don't know how much harder that will make trying to pursue a murder charge against the police officer, the family are already cross it's Murder 3 not Murder 1, and if it drops to manslaughter you'd have to assume that will go over very badly as things stand, not with the family and certainly not with a lot of people willing to go out and protest the police actions. (Just to be clear I'm not saying the charge should drop, only I don't understand how the law works, though the accused deserves to be treated equally before the law no matter the irony)

It's a scary moment, and this could easily get much worse.