COVID19

[Galfon]

Could nicotine be the answer?!?!?

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus- ... 9-11977460

Yuh - Frankee studies mirror findings floated here last week from US & China..Vape manufacturers will be cursing the worrying link to fatalities a few months back.
(Of course, this is only a sky news article so may not count.)

[Son of Mathonwy]

Interesting in the guardian today. A compliant populace who take responsibility for their actions is pretty much key to flattening the curve.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... irus-curve

Also key is a plan enacted by government which includes early action, testing and contact tracing, social and workplace distancing measures, checks on new arrivals to the country.

A populace willing to follow government guidance is, of course, vital, but we have that in the UK. We've exceeded the government's expectations in how hard we've locked down. This is a nation with a queuing obsession, after all.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The downside of an open border from an Irish perspective.

[Galfon]

For any built environment geeks amongst you:

https://www.buildingsandcities.org/insi ... eyond.html

Will COVID alter how we design, plan and build?.

Not an envirogeek but would say it has to, as there have been a number of close calls before this one.
Slum clearances due to overcrowding and insanitory conditions resulted in large sub-urban or peri-urban estates and New Towns - on the premise that ammenities and work could easily be reached from your green and open spaces by hopping on a bus or getting in your car..
Loss of local employment, commuting nightmares to new business centres, costly maintaining or installing new utility networks - all problematic for these sprawls - so Mega-cities crammed with vertical congested living spaces and mini appartments are here.In a way, we have re-invented insanitory environments..
Working from home has proven a seamless transition for
some, so it would depend on the weighting of human interaction by organisations and employees.It's a big cultural shift for some.

** Lowest weekday increase in deaths for 3 weeks reported (616), so the gentle crawl down the other side continues..

[canta_brian]

It looks as if those 400,000 Turkish gowns have turned out to be 32,000. Only enough for a few hours supply.

https://www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/exclu ... 78.article

This in itself is not the fault of the government. However, the government may struggle to convince people of this seeing as they made such a song and dance about how clever they had been to procure the shipment in the first place.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Banquo, Italy has higher power capita testing NOW. They started much too late, rather like us, and there's no way of catching up once the virus has got beyond your ability to trace contacts.

thanks, that's why I raised the question on tracing. Spain similar I assume? I'm keen to understand the different implementation models, and also why mortality rate vary so wildly (even accounting for reporting discrepancies).

I think Spain is the same. See also USA.

Interestingly Hancock had naively said that we'll take the South Korean approach once we start relaxing lock down.

[Banquo]

Banquo, Italy has higher power capita testing NOW. They started much too late, rather like us, and there's no way of catching up once the virus has got beyond your ability to trace contacts.

thanks, that's why I raised the question on tracing. Spain similar I assume? I'm keen to understand the different implementation models, and also why mortality rate vary so wildly (even accounting for reporting discrepancies).

I think Spain is the same. See also USA.

Interestingly Hancock had naively said that we'll take the South Korean approach once we start relaxing lock down.

ta

[Sandydragon]

It looks as if those 400,000 Turkish gowns have turned out to be 32,000. Only enough for a few hours supply.

https://www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/exclu ... 78.article

This in itself is not the fault of the government. However, the government may struggle to convince people of this seeing as they made such a song and dance about how clever they had been to procure the shipment in the first place.

This is what happens when media people feel under pressure to get a good news story out. They jump on something like this and then when there are problem (almost inevitably) it all looks a bit daft.

[Son of Mathonwy]

It looks as if those 400,000 Turkish gowns have turned out to be 32,000. Only enough for a few hours supply.

https://www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/exclu ... 78.article

This in itself is not the fault of the government. However, the government may struggle to convince people of this seeing as they made such a song and dance about how clever they had been to procure the shipment in the first place.

This is what happens when media people feel under pressure to get a good news story out. They jump on something like this and then when there are problem (almost inevitably) it all looks a bit daft.

It happens because the government can't stop itself from overpromising and spinning.

[Sandydragon]

It looks as if those 400,000 Turkish gowns have turned out to be 32,000. Only enough for a few hours supply.

https://www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/exclu ... 78.article

This in itself is not the fault of the government. However, the government may struggle to convince people of this seeing as they made such a song and dance about how clever they had been to procure the shipment in the first place.

This is what happens when media people feel under pressure to get a good news story out. They jump on something like this and then when there are problem (almost inevitably) it all looks a bit daft.

It happens because the government can't stop itself from overpromising and spinning.

If it has ordered 400000 items and has a deadline for delivery, how is that spinning or over promising?

[Digby]

This is what happens when media people feel under pressure to get a good news story out. They jump on something like this and then when there are problem (almost inevitably) it all looks a bit daft.

It happens because the government can't stop itself from overpromising and spinning.

If it has ordered 400000 items and has a deadline for delivery, how is that spinning or over promising?

It's part an illustration of how hard it is to order supplies and part they're wanting to look good and counting their chickens before they're hatched. We will need to look at our redundancy plans around sourcing materials, manufacture and storage/distribution of PPE as it's clearly shite, and I've got a feeling this is a known thing which has been outstanding for over a decade, though successive governments haven't spent time/money on the issue and they've all assumed they'd not need redundancy coverage for a global crisis

[Son of Mathonwy]

It happens because the government can't stop itself from overpromising and spinning.

If it has ordered 400000 items and has a deadline for delivery, how is that spinning or over promising?

It's part an illustration of how hard it is to order supplies and part they're wanting to look good and counting their chickens before they're hatched. We will need to look at our redundancy plans around sourcing materials, manufacture and storage/distribution of PPE as it's clearly shite, and I've got a feeling this is a known thing which has been outstanding for over a decade, though successive governments haven't spent time/money on the issue and they've all assumed they'd not need redundancy coverage for a global crisis

Agreed. Promising something that's beyond your control, and that in fact does not arrive, is pretty much the definition of overpromising.
If that's not overpromising, I'd like to know what is.

[Digby]

If it has ordered 400000 items and has a deadline for delivery, how is that spinning or over promising?

It's part an illustration of how hard it is to order supplies and part they're wanting to look good and counting their chickens before they're hatched. We will need to look at our redundancy plans around sourcing materials, manufacture and storage/distribution of PPE as it's clearly shite, and I've got a feeling this is a known thing which has been outstanding for over a decade, though successive governments haven't spent time/money on the issue and they've all assumed they'd not need redundancy coverage for a global crisis

Agreed. Promising something that's beyond your control, and that in fact does not arrive, is pretty much the definition of overpromising.
If that's not overpromising, I'd like to know what is.

Promising something within your control and not delivering

[Banquo]

It's part an illustration of how hard it is to order supplies and part they're wanting to look good and counting their chickens before they're hatched. We will need to look at our redundancy plans around sourcing materials, manufacture and storage/distribution of PPE as it's clearly shite, and I've got a feeling this is a known thing which has been outstanding for over a decade, though successive governments haven't spent time/money on the issue and they've all assumed they'd not need redundancy coverage for a global crisis

Agreed. Promising something that's beyond your control, and that in fact does not arrive, is pretty much the definition of overpromising.
If that's not overpromising, I'd like to know what is.

Promising something within your control and not delivering

[Son of Mathonwy]

It's part an illustration of how hard it is to order supplies and part they're wanting to look good and counting their chickens before they're hatched. We will need to look at our redundancy plans around sourcing materials, manufacture and storage/distribution of PPE as it's clearly shite, and I've got a feeling this is a known thing which has been outstanding for over a decade, though successive governments haven't spent time/money on the issue and they've all assumed they'd not need redundancy coverage for a global crisis

Agreed. Promising something that's beyond your control, and that in fact does not arrive, is pretty much the definition of overpromising.
If that's not overpromising, I'd like to know what is.

Promising something within your control and not delivering

Yeah, that is another example of overpromising.

[Sandydragon]

It happens because the government can't stop itself from overpromising and spinning.

If it has ordered 400000 items and has a deadline for delivery, how is that spinning or over promising?

It's part an illustration of how hard it is to order supplies and part they're wanting to look good and counting their chickens before they're hatched. We will need to look at our redundancy plans around sourcing materials, manufacture and storage/distribution of PPE as it's clearly shite, and I've got a feeling this is a known thing which has been outstanding for over a decade, though successive governments haven't spent time/money on the issue and they've all assumed they'd not need redundancy coverage for a global crisis

Or, does anyone have a good news story that we can use to show that we are in top of this crisis because the fucking media are pressing us daily?

Yep, we’ve just placed an order for 400000 PPEitems arriving Sundaynfrom Turkey.

Great we’ll mention that.

Anyone in their right mind knows that supply chains are fragile at the moment so it might be delayed but as soon as it’s mentioned in a press briefing it has to be delivered on time or else, even if not the governments fault.

The media helps to drive this and something that is pretty straight down the line is suddenly distorted into a spin operations with Laura From the BBC suddenly making comments on it. We have al lost our sense of proportion.

So no, I don’t think the government set out to spin this one. They perhaps should have qualified the statement a little but that would have been torn apart as well so frankly you can’t win.

[Son of Mathonwy]

If it has ordered 400000 items and has a deadline for delivery, how is that spinning or over promising?

It's part an illustration of how hard it is to order supplies and part they're wanting to look good and counting their chickens before they're hatched. We will need to look at our redundancy plans around sourcing materials, manufacture and storage/distribution of PPE as it's clearly shite, and I've got a feeling this is a known thing which has been outstanding for over a decade, though successive governments haven't spent time/money on the issue and they've all assumed they'd not need redundancy coverage for a global crisis

Or, does anyone have a good news story that we can use to show that we are in top of this crisis because the fucking media are pressing us daily?

Yep, we’ve just placed an order for 400000 PPEitems arriving Sundaynfrom Turkey.

Great we’ll mention that.

Anyone in their right mind knows that supply chains are fragile at the moment so it might be delayed but as soon as it’s mentioned in a press briefing it has to be delivered on time or else, even if not the governments fault.

The media helps to drive this and something that is pretty straight down the line is suddenly distorted into a spin operations with Laura From the BBC suddenly making comments on it. We have al lost our sense of proportion.

So no, I don’t think the government set out to spin this one. They perhaps should have qualified the statement a little but that would have been torn apart as well so frankly you can’t win.

Sandy, seriously is there anything you'd hold this government to account for? It is entirely the fault of government that they promised this consignment would arrive on Sunday. And then again on Monday. No one forced them to promise a particular amount on a particular day. They could easily have given an honest answer, which is we have an order for X, which we expect to arrive in the next few days.

Yes, this is not in itself the worst thing the government has done, by a long way, but please don't blame this one on the media.

[Mellsblue]

It's part an illustration of how hard it is to order supplies and part they're wanting to look good and counting their chickens before they're hatched. We will need to look at our redundancy plans around sourcing materials, manufacture and storage/distribution of PPE as it's clearly shite, and I've got a feeling this is a known thing which has been outstanding for over a decade, though successive governments haven't spent time/money on the issue and they've all assumed they'd not need redundancy coverage for a global crisis

Or, does anyone have a good news story that we can use to show that we are in top of this crisis because the fucking media are pressing us daily?

Yep, we’ve just placed an order for 400000 PPEitems arriving Sundaynfrom Turkey.

Great we’ll mention that.

Anyone in their right mind knows that supply chains are fragile at the moment so it might be delayed but as soon as it’s mentioned in a press briefing it has to be delivered on time or else, even if not the governments fault.

The media helps to drive this and something that is pretty straight down the line is suddenly distorted into a spin operations with Laura From the BBC suddenly making comments on it. We have al lost our sense of proportion.

So no, I don’t think the government set out to spin this one. They perhaps should have qualified the statement a little but that would have been torn apart as well so frankly you can’t win.

It is entirely the fault of government that they promised this consignment would arrive on Sunday.

This just isn’t true. They signed a contract with a supplier. The supplier was full of BS. The country needs good news at the moment. There are lots of things in each press conference that are designed to give subconscious messages to the nation. Read ‘Inside the Nudge Unit’ for more info. This is such a strange thing to attack the govt on.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Or, does anyone have a good news story that we can use to show that we are in top of this crisis because the fucking media are pressing us daily?

Yep, we’ve just placed an order for 400000 PPEitems arriving Sundaynfrom Turkey.

Great we’ll mention that.

Anyone in their right mind knows that supply chains are fragile at the moment so it might be delayed but as soon as it’s mentioned in a press briefing it has to be delivered on time or else, even if not the governments fault.

The media helps to drive this and something that is pretty straight down the line is suddenly distorted into a spin operations with Laura From the BBC suddenly making comments on it. We have al lost our sense of proportion.

So no, I don’t think the government set out to spin this one. They perhaps should have qualified the statement a little but that would have been torn apart as well so frankly you can’t win.

It is entirely the fault of government that they promised this consignment would arrive on Sunday.

This just isn’t true. They signed a contract with a supplier. The supplier was full of BS. The country needs good news at the moment. There are lots of things in each press conference that are designed to give subconscious messages to the nation. Read ‘Inside the Nudge Unit’ for more info. This is such a strange thing to attack the govt on.

No. It is precisely true. No one forced them to promise it. They could have given the answer anyone else would have when a delivery is due - we have an order and the expected date of delivery is X, or we expect it to arrive in the next few days.

The country may need good news, but it doesn't need false hope. How much good does it do, to reduce the people's confidence in their government's ability to achieve vital things, if they fail in such a visible way? It was totally unnecessary. I blame the media for many things, but not for this. You say the supplier was full of BS. Maybe, but this "nudge" has left people with the impression that the government is full of BS.

[Mellsblue]

It is entirely the fault of government that they promised this consignment would arrive on Sunday.

This just isn’t true. They signed a contract with a supplier. The supplier was full of BS. The country needs good news at the moment. There are lots of things in each press conference that are designed to give subconscious messages to the nation. Read ‘Inside the Nudge Unit’ for more info. This is such a strange thing to attack the govt on.

No. It is precisely true. No one forced them to promise it. They could have given the answer anyone else would have when a delivery is due - we have an order and the expected date of delivery is X, or we expect it to arrive in the next few days.

The country may need good news, but it doesn't need false hope. How much good does it do, to reduce the people's confidence in their government's ability to achieve vital things, if they fail in such a visible way? It was totally unnecessary. I blame the media for many things, but not for this. You say the supplier was full of BS. Maybe, but this "nudge" has left people with the impression that the government is full of BS.

‘Precisely true’....if you say so.

[Digby]

If it has ordered 400000 items and has a deadline for delivery, how is that spinning or over promising?

It's part an illustration of how hard it is to order supplies and part they're wanting to look good and counting their chickens before they're hatched. We will need to look at our redundancy plans around sourcing materials, manufacture and storage/distribution of PPE as it's clearly shite, and I've got a feeling this is a known thing which has been outstanding for over a decade, though successive governments haven't spent time/money on the issue and they've all assumed they'd not need redundancy coverage for a global crisis

Or, does anyone have a good news story that we can use to show that we are in top of this crisis because the fucking media are pressing us daily?

Yep, we’ve just placed an order for 400000 PPEitems arriving Sundaynfrom Turkey.

Great we’ll mention that.

Anyone in their right mind knows that supply chains are fragile at the moment so it might be delayed but as soon as it’s mentioned in a press briefing it has to be delivered on time or else, even if not the governments fault.

The media helps to drive this and something that is pretty straight down the line is suddenly distorted into a spin operations with Laura From the BBC suddenly making comments on it. We have al lost our sense of proportion.

So no, I don’t think the government set out to spin this one. They perhaps should have qualified the statement a little but that would have been torn apart as well so frankly you can’t win.

They do own there's insufficient domestic supply and/or domestic products are inferior to (in this case) Turkish ones such we don't want them, so if their justification is we can't source from abroad as we want fine, but then they've got to take the hit along with some previous Labour governments, that they've been caught not having done their jobs on the domestic front

[Mellsblue]

Interesting, and very good news, if true:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 20053058v1

[Son of Mathonwy]

This just isn’t true. They signed a contract with a supplier. The supplier was full of BS. The country needs good news at the moment. There are lots of things in each press conference that are designed to give subconscious messages to the nation. Read ‘Inside the Nudge Unit’ for more info. This is such a strange thing to attack the govt on.

No. It is precisely true. No one forced them to promise it. They could have given the answer anyone else would have when a delivery is due - we have an order and the expected date of delivery is X, or we expect it to arrive in the next few days.
The country may need good news, but it doesn't need false hope. How much good does it do, to reduce the people's confidence in their government's ability to achieve vital things, if they fail in such a visible way? It was totally unnecessary. I blame the media for many things, but not for this. You say the supplier was full of BS. Maybe, but this "nudge" has left people with the impression that the government is full of BS.

‘Precisely true’....if you say so.

OK, I can't say it more clearly. We'll just have to disagree on that point.

So, related points: Do you think it was wise to promise something they couldn't deliver? Do you think this broken promise has reduced public confidence in the government? Do you think it's good for the public to have reduced confidence in their government at this time?

[Mellsblue]

No. It is precisely true. No one forced them to promise it. They could have given the answer anyone else would have when a delivery is due - we have an order and the expected date of delivery is X, or we expect it to arrive in the next few days.
The country may need good news, but it doesn't need false hope. How much good does it do, to reduce the people's confidence in their government's ability to achieve vital things, if they fail in such a visible way? It was totally unnecessary. I blame the media for many things, but not for this. You say the supplier was full of BS. Maybe, but this "nudge" has left people with the impression that the government is full of BS.

‘Precisely true’....if you say so.

OK, I can't say it more clearly. We'll just have to disagree on that point.

So, related points: Do you think it was wise to promise something they couldn't deliver? Do you think this broken promise has reduced public confidence in the government? Do you think it's good for the public to have reduced confidence in their government at this time?

That is all precisely true.

[canta_brian]

Dominic Cummings and Ben Warner, a vote leave data cruncher, have been attending SAGE. No Chief Medical Officer of Scotland, or of Wales or NI. Nobody who is a Director of Public Health anywhere in the UK.

So no room for actual experts, but room for people with no scientific training. The idea that our politicians have been making policy on the interpretations of the data from Cummings rather than the actual data from medical professionals is a scandal.