Trump

[Digby]

For a tedious pedant, it's funny how you actually don't know what a concentration camp is. A concentration camp IS for the detention of a group of people without giving them due process, you absolute tool.

Being a pedant about it I did note the camps meet some of the definitions/standards of being a concentration camp, thus my saying 'you don't have to meet all the conditions to be called a concentration camp, simply rounding groups such as refugees up is enough.'

I'm only saying because they're not using the camps for forced labour and/or execution then myself I'd call them detention camps, as I'd rather address the disgusting situation as is then allow for a deflection argument that Trump isn't a Nazi because they're not inducting families into forced labour and/or seeking their extermination.

If concentration camps as a term wasn't so synonymous with the persecution of the Jews under Hitler then I'd be using the term myself rather than detention camp. But to avoid that deflection argument that Trump is being conflated with Hitelr when he's obviously not as bad then simply for myself I'd avoid saying concentration camp, but I'm not going to jump up and down about others saying concentration camp.

Blah blah blah, "i'M nOt DefLecTinG," he says, as he deflects. Forced labour or executions aren't a required part of concentration camps. No amount of you trying to redefine the word to white knight for fascists is going to actually change what a "concentration camp" is.

I'm not saying you need anything beyond what the current US administration are doing to refer to the camps as concentration camps, nor am I saying people shouldn't refer to them as such. I'm merely saying for myself I think if you say concentration camp people will call to mind the camps as run by Hitler and as such I'd label them detention camps.

Though clearly whatever they're called it's more important something be done to end the outrageous treatment of people seeking entry into the US, and get on with processing some asylum claims. I'm not saying that means they must allow entry, merely there needs to be a legal process for people to go through, and they should be safe during that process

[Digby]

I must admit - this thread is the first time I've read that concentration camps have to be for the express purposes of forced labour or death. whilst most famously associated with the Nazi regime - I never thought they were synonymous either. I'd always learnt that they were invented by the British*, in the boer war, as camps where "undesirables" are concentrated together and kept under close guard - often (but not always) with deliberately poor health and nutrition in order to make escape harder. Prisons for people who aren't prisoners and haven't undergone due process; or POW camps for people who aren't prisoners of war.

Non-combatant Boer were held in concentration camps - to my knowlegde, no forced labour, no gas chambers.
Non-combatant Japenese Americans were held in concentration camps in the US during WW2 - to my knowledge, no forced labour, no gas chambers.
Latinx asylum seekers are being held in concentration camps right now in the US - unequivocally so IMO

ETA:
Oxford dictionary says: "A place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution."
Cambridge dictionary says: "a place where large numbers of people are kept as prisoners in extremely bad conditions, especially for political reasons"
Miriam-Webster says: "a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard"
Encyclopaedia Brittanica says: "internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order."

I am failing to see what part of the actual definition these US camps fail to meet (sometimes =/= always)


* - Smithsonian says the Spanish in Cuba beat us to it by 5 years - I would expect some of the crap we pulled in India qualified as well, albeit post-hoc because the term hadn't been invented then.

So far as I know nobody is saying they don't meet the definition of a concentration camp, there's merely me saying they do meet such condition, but as there are other associations that go along with the term I would this instance not choose to use it

[Digby]

It's almost like Digby is full of shit.

Very true, but do keep up the insults, it's like Rowan never left.

[Coco]

I generally hate the overuse (and totally incorrect use) of the word literally, but it seemed fairly clear Cashead’s use of it was because people are refusing to acknowledge that children dying in concentration camps is a real thing and not just some liberal media spin-job.

The only defence, beyond them being brown/foreign, seems to be that they’re not really children or not really concentration camps.

I have no idea why I bothered typing that. I’m sure Digby knows, but doesn’t give a shit. Likewise Coco. Oh well.

I do give a shit... I live down there... none of it is OK with me. CBP cant keep up with how many are coming... and the vast majority of deathly ill people coming arent getting ill when they get here... they are traveling under the worst conditions imaginable... making the trip deathly ill and are in bad shape when they get to a safe place.. Not to mention little girls having 10 - 20 different semen samples found inside them when they arrive... its horrific... all of it. My own opinion is that for the most part, allowing children to merrily go with any adult that says they are a relative is irresponsible too.. what is it that would make the tragic mess better? CBP arent licensed daycare or foster care facilities and everyone expects miracles. Nobody is setting out to harm anyone coming over, its had to be makeshift. I feel bad for the kids.. its gotta be a horrid experience. Mexico has offered refugee status for most of them... jobs... medical help.. but they dont want that... so they keep travelling north. 88% of them dont qualify for asylum in the U S... and they know it yet still put themselves and any children travelling with them in danger.

You think cos I support Trump that I dont give a shit? I probably give a shit more than any of you that dont see it first hand while puffing out your chests and "feeling good" parroting talking points that are not necessarily accurate, exaggerated, and do nothing to help these poor innocent children. But hey... keep on droning on about it if it makes YOU feel like youre actually lifting a fucking finger to help them.

And as for you Cashead... you fucking holier than thou, one eyed, know-it-all... instead of sitting there spouting ridiculous and offensive snipes at people that question your apparent expertise on the subject of 'concentration camps'... or anything else for that matter...why dont you crawl down from your lavender velvet tufted chaise lounge, pull the wadded up panties out of your ass and offer up suggestions or ideas that might help these kids instead of exploiting them on a message board. I at least volunteer and get food, diapers, feminine hygeine products and baby formula down there. You want to help? Let me know.

[Which Tyler]

I don't think you'd find those denying the camps hold children, separate families and even meet some definitions of a concentration camp (though not as bad as all) are going to be swayed by the use of literal.

Being a pedant about it I did note the camps meet some of the definitions/standards of being a concentration camp, thus my saying 'you don't have to meet all the conditions to be called a concentration camp, simply rounding groups such as refugees up is enough.'

I'm only saying because they're not using the camps for forced labour and/or execution then myself I'd call them detention camps, as I'd rather address the disgusting situation as is then allow for a deflection argument that Trump isn't a Nazi because they're not inducting families into forced labour and/or seeking their extermination.

Please forgive for thinking that your repeated claim that these camps meet some but not all of the definition of concentration camps means that you think they only meet some, but not all of the definition of concentration ncamps.

[Digby]

I don't think you'd find those denying the camps hold children, separate families and even meet some definitions of a concentration camp (though not as bad as all) are going to be swayed by the use of literal.

Being a pedant about it I did note the camps meet some of the definitions/standards of being a concentration camp, thus my saying 'you don't have to meet all the conditions to be called a concentration camp, simply rounding groups such as refugees up is enough.'

I'm only saying because they're not using the camps for forced labour and/or execution then myself I'd call them detention camps, as I'd rather address the disgusting situation as is then allow for a deflection argument that Trump isn't a Nazi because they're not inducting families into forced labour and/or seeking their extermination.

Please forgive for thinking that your repeated claim that these camps meet some but not all of the definition of concentration camps means that you think they only meet some, but not all of the definition of concentration ncamps.

I'd read it as some definitions of a concentration camp, not some of the definition of a concentration camp. Perhaps I'd do so out of ignorance.

Beyond that I have noted whilst labelling them something different it's not as though I think they're virtuous, more they're a serious problem which should be addressed. I'm assuming your request for forgiveness entails a modicum of sarcasm, but either way tbh I was actually only amused (more by another than yourself) at the outstanding virtue signalling over someone thinking slightly differently about how they'd describe the situation, which frankly is a weird display of intolerance in a situation that if being addressed sensibly needs rather more tolerance.

[Coco]

I generally hate the overuse (and totally incorrect use) of the word literally, but it seemed fairly clear Cashead’s use of it was because people are refusing to acknowledge that children dying in concentration camps is a real thing and not just some liberal media spin-job.

The only defence, beyond them being brown/foreign, seems to be that they’re not really children or not really concentration camps.

I have no idea why I bothered typing that. I’m sure Digby knows, but doesn’t give a shit. Likewise Coco. Oh well.

I do give a shit... I live down there... none of it is OK with me. CBP cant keep up with how many are coming... and the vast majority of deathly ill people coming arent getting ill when they get here... they are traveling under the worst conditions imaginable... making the trip deathly ill and are in bad shape when they get to a safe place.. Not to mention little girls having 10 - 20 different semen samples found inside them when they arrive... its horrific... all of it. My own opinion is that for the most part, allowing children to merrily go with any adult that says they are a relative is irresponsible too.. what is it that would make the tragic mess better? CBP arent licensed daycare or foster care facilities and everyone expects miracles. Nobody is setting out to harm anyone coming over, its had to be makeshift. I feel bad for the kids.. its gotta be a horrid experience. Mexico has offered refugee status for most of them... jobs... medical help.. but they dont want that... so they keep travelling north. 88% of them dont qualify for asylum in the U S... and they know it yet still put themselves and any children travelling with them in danger.

You think cos I support Trump that I dont give a shit? I probably give a shit more than any of you that dont see it first hand while puffing out your chests and "feeling good" parroting talking points that are not necessarily accurate, exaggerated, and do nothing to help these poor innocent children. But hey... keep on droning on about it if it makes YOU feel like youre actually lifting a fucking finger to help them.

And as for you Cashead... you fucking holier than thou, one eyed, know-it-all... instead of sitting there spouting ridiculous and offensive snipes at people that question your apparent expertise on the subject of 'concentration camps'... or anything else for that matter...why dont you crawl down from your lavender velvet tufted chaise lounge, pull the wadded up panties out of your ass and offer up suggestions or ideas that might help these kids instead of exploiting them on a message board. I at least volunteer and get food, diapers, feminine hygeine products and baby formula down there. You want to help? Let me know.

You voted for them. You actively support the people responsible for this shit. If you aren't on board with this shit, don't fucking support them.

But hey, you took them a box of tissues, how so very fucking Gandhi of you.

I'll take that as a firm "no" on any genuine concern, constructive ideas or intent to help. Color me "shocked".

[Stom]

I generally hate the overuse (and totally incorrect use) of the word literally, but it seemed fairly clear Cashead’s use of it was because people are refusing to acknowledge that children dying in concentration camps is a real thing and not just some liberal media spin-job.

The only defence, beyond them being brown/foreign, seems to be that they’re not really children or not really concentration camps.

I have no idea why I bothered typing that. I’m sure Digby knows, but doesn’t give a shit. Likewise Coco. Oh well.

I do give a shit... I live down there... none of it is OK with me. CBP cant keep up with how many are coming... and the vast majority of deathly ill people coming arent getting ill when they get here... they are traveling under the worst conditions imaginable... making the trip deathly ill and are in bad shape when they get to a safe place.. Not to mention little girls having 10 - 20 different semen samples found inside them when they arrive... its horrific... all of it. My own opinion is that for the most part, allowing children to merrily go with any adult that says they are a relative is irresponsible too.. what is it that would make the tragic mess better? CBP arent licensed daycare or foster care facilities and everyone expects miracles. Nobody is setting out to harm anyone coming over, its had to be makeshift. I feel bad for the kids.. its gotta be a horrid experience. Mexico has offered refugee status for most of them... jobs... medical help.. but they dont want that... so they keep travelling north. 88% of them dont qualify for asylum in the U S... and they know it yet still put themselves and any children travelling with them in danger.

You think cos I support Trump that I dont give a shit? I probably give a shit more than any of you that dont see it first hand while puffing out your chests and "feeling good" parroting talking points that are not necessarily accurate, exaggerated, and do nothing to help these poor innocent children. But hey... keep on droning on about it if it makes YOU feel like youre actually lifting a fucking finger to help them.

And as for you Cashead... you fucking holier than thou, one eyed, know-it-all... instead of sitting there spouting ridiculous and offensive snipes at people that question your apparent expertise on the subject of 'concentration camps'... or anything else for that matter...why dont you crawl down from your lavender velvet tufted chaise lounge, pull the wadded up panties out of your ass and offer up suggestions or ideas that might help these kids instead of exploiting them on a message board. I at least volunteer and get food, diapers, feminine hygeine products and baby formula down there. You want to help? Let me know.

Is that not your government's responsibility? Why should you be out of pocket and time for the mistakes of your government?

Would it not have been better to spend a tiny bit more on immigration procedures? Like more, better trained border patrols, more judges to hear the cases, more support staff to deal with the migrants?

Because it sounds like a humanitarian crisis that was completely avoidable. And Trump's government has caused it.

[Mikey Brown]

I generally hate the overuse (and totally incorrect use) of the word literally, but it seemed fairly clear Cashead’s use of it was because people are refusing to acknowledge that children dying in concentration camps is a real thing and not just some liberal media spin-job.

The only defence, beyond them being brown/foreign, seems to be that they’re not really children or not really concentration camps.

I have no idea why I bothered typing that. I’m sure Digby knows, but doesn’t give a shit. Likewise Coco. Oh well.

I do give a shit... I live down there... none of it is OK with me. CBP cant keep up with how many are coming... and the vast majority of deathly ill people coming arent getting ill when they get here... they are traveling under the worst conditions imaginable... making the trip deathly ill and are in bad shape when they get to a safe place.. Not to mention little girls having 10 - 20 different semen samples found inside them when they arrive... its horrific... all of it. My own opinion is that for the most part, allowing children to merrily go with any adult that says they are a relative is irresponsible too.. what is it that would make the tragic mess better? CBP arent licensed daycare or foster care facilities and everyone expects miracles. Nobody is setting out to harm anyone coming over, its had to be makeshift. I feel bad for the kids.. its gotta be a horrid experience. Mexico has offered refugee status for most of them... jobs... medical help.. but they dont want that... so they keep travelling north. 88% of them dont qualify for asylum in the U S... and they know it yet still put themselves and any children travelling with them in danger.

You think cos I support Trump that I dont give a shit? I probably give a shit more than any of you that dont see it first hand while puffing out your chests and "feeling good" parroting talking points that are not necessarily accurate, exaggerated, and do nothing to help these poor innocent children. But hey... keep on droning on about it if it makes YOU feel like youre actually lifting a fucking finger to help them.

I was referring more to the whole ‘literally’ saga, but I take your points.

I don’t see any of this stuff first hand, so I certainly can’t lecture you on that.

I do find it difficult to level any support of Trump with wanting to avoid the horrific treatment of these people once they are there, but there’s obviously a million more factors in why/how they make the journey. It sounds absolutely grim, as you say.

That’s certainly not all to do with the US (foreign policy, guns, labour etc.) but they play their part, and it seems like (to me, an idiot, simply reading the words of some non-idiots) there are some more effective investments to be made elsewhere then just open deterrents from coming to the US.

This didn’t start with Trump and it won’t end there, but his callousness towards these people has definitely highlighted some things.

Good for you for getting involved and helping out. I do mean that.

[Digby]

I generally hate the overuse (and totally incorrect use) of the word literally, but it seemed fairly clear Cashead’s use of it was because people are refusing to acknowledge that children dying in concentration camps is a real thing and not just some liberal media spin-job.

The only defence, beyond them being brown/foreign, seems to be that they’re not really children or not really concentration camps.

I have no idea why I bothered typing that. I’m sure Digby knows, but doesn’t give a shit. Likewise Coco. Oh well.

I do give a shit... I live down there... none of it is OK with me. CBP cant keep up with how many are coming... and the vast majority of deathly ill people coming arent getting ill when they get here... they are traveling under the worst conditions imaginable... making the trip deathly ill and are in bad shape when they get to a safe place.. Not to mention little girls having 10 - 20 different semen samples found inside them when they arrive... its horrific... all of it. My own opinion is that for the most part, allowing children to merrily go with any adult that says they are a relative is irresponsible too.. what is it that would make the tragic mess better? CBP arent licensed daycare or foster care facilities and everyone expects miracles. Nobody is setting out to harm anyone coming over, its had to be makeshift. I feel bad for the kids.. its gotta be a horrid experience. Mexico has offered refugee status for most of them... jobs... medical help.. but they dont want that... so they keep travelling north. 88% of them dont qualify for asylum in the U S... and they know it yet still put themselves and any children travelling with them in danger.

You think cos I support Trump that I dont give a shit? I probably give a shit more than any of you that dont see it first hand while puffing out your chests and "feeling good" parroting talking points that are not necessarily accurate, exaggerated, and do nothing to help these poor innocent children. But hey... keep on droning on about it if it makes YOU feel like youre actually lifting a fucking finger to help them.

I was referring more to the whole ‘literally’ saga, but I take your points.

I don’t see any of this stuff first hand, so I certainly can’t lecture you on that.

I do find it difficult to level any support of Trump with wanting to avoid the horrific treatment of these people once they are there, but there’s obviously a million more factors in why/how they make the journey. It sounds absolutely grim, as you say.

That’s certainly not all to do with the US (foreign policy, guns, labour etc.) but they play their part, and it seems like (to me, an idiot, simply reading the words of some non-idiots) there are some more effective investments to be made elsewhere then just open deterrents from coming to the US.

This didn’t start with Trump and it won’t end there, but his callousness towards these people has definitely highlighted some things.

Good for you for getting involved and helping out. I do mean that.

I thought the literal saga was a little interesting, in that some were/are happy with the use of "literally" as an intensifier, whereas I'd take it to be verbal (well written) diarrhoea, or if being charitable tautological. Though it isn't that surprising, and not very interesting, that it being the internet the focus went onto a label and not any progressive thoughts as to what might/should come next

[Puja]

I generally hate the overuse (and totally incorrect use) of the word literally, but it seemed fairly clear Cashead’s use of it was because people are refusing to acknowledge that children dying in concentration camps is a real thing and not just some liberal media spin-job.

The only defence, beyond them being brown/foreign, seems to be that they’re not really children or not really concentration camps.

I have no idea why I bothered typing that. I’m sure Digby knows, but doesn’t give a shit. Likewise Coco. Oh well.

I do give a shit... I live down there... none of it is OK with me. CBP cant keep up with how many are coming... and the vast majority of deathly ill people coming arent getting ill when they get here... they are traveling under the worst conditions imaginable... making the trip deathly ill and are in bad shape when they get to a safe place.. Not to mention little girls having 10 - 20 different semen samples found inside them when they arrive... its horrific... all of it. My own opinion is that for the most part, allowing children to merrily go with any adult that says they are a relative is irresponsible too.. what is it that would make the tragic mess better? CBP arent licensed daycare or foster care facilities and everyone expects miracles. Nobody is setting out to harm anyone coming over, its had to be makeshift. I feel bad for the kids.. its gotta be a horrid experience. Mexico has offered refugee status for most of them... jobs... medical help.. but they dont want that... so they keep travelling north. 88% of them dont qualify for asylum in the U S... and they know it yet still put themselves and any children travelling with them in danger.

You think cos I support Trump that I dont give a shit? I probably give a shit more than any of you that dont see it first hand while puffing out your chests and "feeling good" parroting talking points that are not necessarily accurate, exaggerated, and do nothing to help these poor innocent children. But hey... keep on droning on about it if it makes YOU feel like youre actually lifting a fucking finger to help them.

And as for you Cashead... you fucking holier than thou, one eyed, know-it-all... instead of sitting there spouting ridiculous and offensive snipes at people that question your apparent expertise on the subject of 'concentration camps'... or anything else for that matter...why dont you crawl down from your lavender velvet tufted chaise lounge, pull the wadded up panties out of your ass and offer up suggestions or ideas that might help these kids instead of exploiting them on a message board. I at least volunteer and get food, diapers, feminine hygeine products and baby formula down there. You want to help? Let me know.

As far as I'm aware, there is no actual increase in asylum seekers over previous years or decades. This is not a sudden problem and the only way to cope is concentration camps - this is an administration who has decided that concentration camps are a better idea than others. It is a choice and you have voted for and are supporting that choice.

Even once the decision to run concentration camps was taken, they could have been funded better and run more humanely. The administraton was successfully taken to court to force them to provide hygiene products and facilities to children. They had to be forced to let refugee children bathe. The conditions are deliberately awful and you have voted for and are supporting that choice.

You say no-one has set out to harm anyone and that it's all makeshift, but this is policy. No-one just found a bunch of cages in the desert and decided to make do - the government chose this and chose how many resources they were willing to put it. Turns out that that was less than was needed to treat peolle like human beings. You have voted for and are supporting that choice.

You could be increasing the number of asylum judges so you don't have to keep these people. You could be engaging with South American countries, targetting aid and trade to make heir home places that they don't need to flee from. You could stop ostracising countries in the continent that you have ideological opposition to and start engaging with them. You could take a laissez-faire approach to immigration and not decide to abitrarily pull up the drawbridge after your ancestors fled their home countries to find a better life. You could be doing a lot of different policy things.

What your government have decided to do is declare a completely statistically normal number of refugees as a "crisis", talk about "invasions" and portray them as the biggest emergency facing the US today, because they're an easy problem to do something about. It's not humane, it's not Christian, it's not a good long-term solution, but it is public and it's far easier to demonise immigrants and Hispanic people than it is to try and solve the myriad other problems in your country.

I believe you when you say you voted Trump for the economics of your business and your region and that you're happy with him for those reasons, that you put to one side the controversies, gaffes, and other issues. However, among the things you have put to one side as less important, are innocent human beings, who are being kept in conditions that it's not legal to keep dogs in, simply because of their ethnicity. That is less important to you than your taxes. Your volunteering and charity are a drop in the ocean - you have voted for and are supporting this choice.

Puja

[Stom]

I generally hate the overuse (and totally incorrect use) of the word literally, but it seemed fairly clear Cashead’s use of it was because people are refusing to acknowledge that children dying in concentration camps is a real thing and not just some liberal media spin-job.

The only defence, beyond them being brown/foreign, seems to be that they’re not really children or not really concentration camps.

I have no idea why I bothered typing that. I’m sure Digby knows, but doesn’t give a shit. Likewise Coco. Oh well.

I do give a shit... I live down there... none of it is OK with me. CBP cant keep up with how many are coming... and the vast majority of deathly ill people coming arent getting ill when they get here... they are traveling under the worst conditions imaginable... making the trip deathly ill and are in bad shape when they get to a safe place.. Not to mention little girls having 10 - 20 different semen samples found inside them when they arrive... its horrific... all of it. My own opinion is that for the most part, allowing children to merrily go with any adult that says they are a relative is irresponsible too.. what is it that would make the tragic mess better? CBP arent licensed daycare or foster care facilities and everyone expects miracles. Nobody is setting out to harm anyone coming over, its had to be makeshift. I feel bad for the kids.. its gotta be a horrid experience. Mexico has offered refugee status for most of them... jobs... medical help.. but they dont want that... so they keep travelling north. 88% of them dont qualify for asylum in the U S... and they know it yet still put themselves and any children travelling with them in danger.

You think cos I support Trump that I dont give a shit? I probably give a shit more than any of you that dont see it first hand while puffing out your chests and "feeling good" parroting talking points that are not necessarily accurate, exaggerated, and do nothing to help these poor innocent children. But hey... keep on droning on about it if it makes YOU feel like youre actually lifting a fucking finger to help them.

And as for you Cashead... you fucking holier than thou, one eyed, know-it-all... instead of sitting there spouting ridiculous and offensive snipes at people that question your apparent expertise on the subject of 'concentration camps'... or anything else for that matter...why dont you crawl down from your lavender velvet tufted chaise lounge, pull the wadded up panties out of your ass and offer up suggestions or ideas that might help these kids instead of exploiting them on a message board. I at least volunteer and get food, diapers, feminine hygeine products and baby formula down there. You want to help? Let me know.

As far as I'm aware, there is no actual increase in asylum seekers over previous years or decades. This is not a sudden problem and the only way to cope is concentration camps - this is an administration who has decided that concentration camps are a better idea than others. It is a choice and you have voted for and are supporting that choice.

Even once the decision to run concentration camps was taken, they could have been funded better and run more humanely. The administraton was successfully taken to court to force them to provide hygiene products and facilities to children. They had to be forced to let refugee children bathe. The conditions are deliberately awful and you have voted for and are supporting that choice.

You say no-one has set out to harm anyone and that it's all makeshift, but this is policy. No-one just found a bunch of cages in the desert and decided to make do - the government chose this and chose how many resources they were willing to put it. Turns out that that was less than was needed to treat peolle like human beings. You have voted for and are supporting that choice.

You could be increasing the number of asylum judges so you don't have to keep these people. You could be engaging with South American countries, targetting aid and trade to make heir home places that they don't need to flee from. You could stop ostracising countries in the continent that you have ideological opposition to and start engaging with them. You could take a laissez-faire approach to immigration and not decide to abitrarily pull up the drawbridge after your ancestors fled their home countries to find a better life. You could be doing a lot of different policy things.

What your government have decided to do is declare a completely statistically normal number of refugees as a "crisis", talk about "invasions" and portray them as the biggest emergency facing the US today, because they're an easy problem to do something about. It's not humane, it's not Christian, it's not a good long-term solution, but it is public and it's far easier to demonise immigrants and Hispanic people than it is to try and solve the myriad other problems in your country.

I believe you when you say you voted Trump for the economics of your business and your region and that you're happy with him for those reasons, that you put to one side the controversies, gaffes, and other issues. However, among the things you have put to one side as less important, are innocent human beings, who are being kept in conditions that it's not legal to keep dogs in, simply because of their ethnicity. That is less important to you than your taxes. Your volunteering and charity are a drop in the ocean - you have voted for and are supporting this choice.

Puja

Hear hear, sir.

Put it better than I did and could.

[Coco]

I generally hate the overuse (and totally incorrect use) of the word literally, but it seemed fairly clear Cashead’s use of it was because people are refusing to acknowledge that children dying in concentration camps is a real thing and not just some liberal media spin-job.

The only defence, beyond them being brown/foreign, seems to be that they’re not really children or not really concentration camps.

I have no idea why I bothered typing that. I’m sure Digby knows, but doesn’t give a shit. Likewise Coco. Oh well.

I do give a shit... I live down there... none of it is OK with me. CBP cant keep up with how many are coming... and the vast majority of deathly ill people coming arent getting ill when they get here... they are traveling under the worst conditions imaginable... making the trip deathly ill and are in bad shape when they get to a safe place.. Not to mention little girls having 10 - 20 different semen samples found inside them when they arrive... its horrific... all of it. My own opinion is that for the most part, allowing children to merrily go with any adult that says they are a relative is irresponsible too.. what is it that would make the tragic mess better? CBP arent licensed daycare or foster care facilities and everyone expects miracles. Nobody is setting out to harm anyone coming over, its had to be makeshift. I feel bad for the kids.. its gotta be a horrid experience. Mexico has offered refugee status for most of them... jobs... medical help.. but they dont want that... so they keep travelling north. 88% of them dont qualify for asylum in the U S... and they know it yet still put themselves and any children travelling with them in danger.

You think cos I support Trump that I dont give a shit? I probably give a shit more than any of you that dont see it first hand while puffing out your chests and "feeling good" parroting talking points that are not necessarily accurate, exaggerated, and do nothing to help these poor innocent children. But hey... keep on droning on about it if it makes YOU feel like youre actually lifting a fucking finger to help them.

And as for you Cashead... you fucking holier than thou, one eyed, know-it-all... instead of sitting there spouting ridiculous and offensive snipes at people that question your apparent expertise on the subject of 'concentration camps'... or anything else for that matter...why dont you crawl down from your lavender velvet tufted chaise lounge, pull the wadded up panties out of your ass and offer up suggestions or ideas that might help these kids instead of exploiting them on a message board. I at least volunteer and get food, diapers, feminine hygeine products and baby formula down there. You want to help? Let me know.

As far as I'm aware, there is no actual increase in asylum seekers over previous years or decades. This is not a sudden problem and the only way to cope is concentration camps - this is an administration who has decided that concentration camps are a better idea than others. It is a choice and you have voted for and are supporting that choice.

Even once the decision to run concentration camps was taken, they could have been funded better and run more humanely. The administraton was successfully taken to court to force them to provide hygiene products and facilities to children. They had to be forced to let refugee children bathe. The conditions are deliberately awful and you have voted for and are supporting that choice.

You say no-one has set out to harm anyone and that it's all makeshift, but this is policy. No-one just found a bunch of cages in the desert and decided to make do - the government chose this and chose how many resources they were willing to put it. Turns out that that was less than was needed to treat peolle like human beings. You have voted for and are supporting that choice.

You could be increasing the number of asylum judges so you don't have to keep these people. You could be engaging with South American countries, targetting aid and trade to make heir home places that they don't need to flee from. You could stop ostracising countries in the continent that you have ideological opposition to and start engaging with them. You could take a laissez-faire approach to immigration and not decide to abitrarily pull up the drawbridge after your ancestors fled their home countries to find a better life. You could be doing a lot of different policy things.

What your government have decided to do is declare a completely statistically normal number of refugees as a "crisis", talk about "invasions" and portray them as the biggest emergency facing the US today, because they're an easy problem to do something about. It's not humane, it's not Christian, it's not a good long-term solution, but it is public and it's far easier to demonise immigrants and Hispanic people than it is to try and solve the myriad other problems in your country.

I believe you when you say you voted Trump for the economics of your business and your region and that you're happy with him for those reasons, that you put to one side the controversies, gaffes, and other issues. However, among the things you have put to one side as less important, are innocent human beings, who are being kept in conditions that it's not legal to keep dogs in, simply because of their ethnicity. That is less important to you than your taxes. Your volunteering and charity are a drop in the ocean - you have voted for and are supporting this choice.

Puja

Puja.. its not the asylum seekers in general that are increasing. It is the number of children travelling alone, or with random strangers to make them look like "families" that is a huge problem. The kids are being used to gain quicker access to the USA (family units tend to get in faster)... and in the process, being raped, abused, and put through extreme and awful situations on their journies. What the administration is doing, is holding most children that arrive to make sure they are traveling with real family members or holding them until a relative etc comes to get them. To let these kids just go off with adults that say they are related, is putting the children at more risk of being abused. Therefore in trying to get kids with actual relatives, sponsors, or friends, it is filling up the facilities which werent prepared for it. My heart truly breaks for the children... they are innocent victims of this crap.

[morepork]

"You think cos I support Trump that I dont give a shit? I probably give a shit more than any of you that dont see it first hand while puffing out your chests and "feeling good" parroting talking points that are not necessarily accurate, exaggerated, and do nothing to help these poor innocent children. But hey... keep on droning on about it if it makes YOU feel like youre actually lifting a fucking finger to help them."

You voted for it (it is the only consistent policy direction this administration has, if you can call it policy), you own it. What other policy initiatives did you perceive as more prominent than "build a wall" ? Was it the detailed healthcare plan so painstakingly well thought out? Maybe it was the business track record of the emotionally handicapped trust fund baby that you thought could help the country could borrow its way out of inequality? Also, you might want to think about how many Latin American governments have been overthrown and replaced by dictatorships with US backing in the context of this "sudden" crisis on the southern border. But hey, drink the kool aid, ignore the nuance and enjoy the tax break. Maybe get behind buying an island in the Arctic circle and harass some brown people somewhere cold.

[Coco]

"You think cos I support Trump that I dont give a shit? I probably give a shit more than any of you that dont see it first hand while puffing out your chests and "feeling good" parroting talking points that are not necessarily accurate, exaggerated, and do nothing to help these poor innocent children. But hey... keep on droning on about it if it makes YOU feel like youre actually lifting a fucking finger to help them."

You voted for it (it is the only consistent policy direction this administration has, if you can call it policy), you own it. What other policy initiatives did you perceive as more prominent than "build a wall" ? Was it the detailed healthcare plan so painstakingly well thought out? Maybe it was the business track record of the emotionally handicapped trust fund baby that you thought could help the country could borrow its way out of inequality? Also, you might want to think about how many Latin American governments have been overthrown and replaced by dictatorships with US backing in the context of this "sudden" crisis on the southern border. But hey, drink the kool aid, ignore the nuance and enjoy the tax break. Maybe get behind buying an island in the Arctic circle and harass some brown people somewhere cold.

I voted for Trump. That does not mean I voted for "this shit". My reasons for voting for him had nothing to do with any of the situations that have come about at the border. Most people that voted for Trump were concerned with getting back to work. The industry my bread and butter is dependant on was struggling and circling the drain in California for a good 8 or 9 years prior to Trump. Unfortunately, with any person that gets voted in to office, at any level, other things come in to play that either could not be foreseen, developed from new policies after the fact, and/or have unintended consequences that affect other people. Same thing happened with Obama. People lost jobs, healthcare and other things... his policies helped some and hurt others... My family was one family that it hurt... terribly... it is how it goes with each and every new person in office. At that time, the opportunities for Americans to get back to work and earn a living again were the most important things on the minds of families like mine. I understand it is easy to point fingers and blame... but that solves nothing... ever. Would be great if the divisive talking points would evolve in to realistic solutions that would unify the masses rather than force the masses in to "if you arent for us, you are against us" type of mentality. Unless any of it personally affects you, your community, or your ability to provide for your family, what you think is just an easily spouted opinion from the sidelines, and serves no purpose but to bash people that never intended to see this or other things happening or get to this point.

[Coco]

You voted for them. You actively support the people responsible for this shit. If you aren't on board with this shit, don't fucking support them.

But hey, you took them a box of tissues, how so very fucking Gandhi of you.

I'll take that as a firm "no" on any genuine concern, constructive ideas or intent to help. Color me "shocked".

Because “not voting for the gibbering racist Oompa-Loompa” is totally out of the question, right. You voted for this shit, you openly support it and you’ve made it clear you can live with his policies. You don’t get to turn around and play the humanitarian, you absolute hypocrite.

Oh Cashead, one of these days youll live long enough to have life experience outside your glass Barbie castle.

I live with the policies of everyone that gets voted in to office. Some good, some bad. Some benefit me, some dont. Some have hurt my family tremendously, and yeah it was rough. It is how the world works until Utopia comes to fruition.

As I said before, you are more than welcome to take off that string of pearls, put on your apron and work gloves and offer help. Hell Ill even house you in the process. Would be great to have such a passionate soul really dig in and help try to make a difference.

[Puja]

I voted for Trump. That does not mean I voted for "this shit". My reasons for voting for him had nothing to do with any of the situations that have come about at the border.

Fair point - it can be argued that this situation could not be extrapolated from 2016.

Do you intend to vote for him in 2020?

Puja

[Coco]

I voted for Trump. That does not mean I voted for "this shit". My reasons for voting for him had nothing to do with any of the situations that have come about at the border.

Fair point - it can be argued that this situation could not be extrapolated from 2016.

Do you intend to vote for him in 2020?

Puja

So far, I do plan on voting for Trump again. That could always change though... I am not a party voter and often vote for Democrats, Libertarians or Independents... just depends on issues and how their promises or plans might be implemented in reality vs. Utopia.

[Puja]

I voted for Trump. That does not mean I voted for "this shit". My reasons for voting for him had nothing to do with any of the situations that have come about at the border.

Fair point - it can be argued that this situation could not be extrapolated from 2016.

Do you intend to vote for him in 2020?

Puja

So far, I do plan on voting for Trump again. That could always change though... I am not a party voter and often vote for Democrats, Libertarians or Independents... just depends on issues and how their promises or plans might be implemented in reality vs. Utopia.

Then, with all due respect, you are voting for "this shit." You are voting for imprisoning innocent people and innocent children in cages that it is illegal to keep a dog in, because of their ethnicity.

Your rationale might be because of his economic policies, but that just means you regard economic policies that help you as being more important than treating people like human beings.

Puja

[morepork]

Coco...I am an American citizen. I have skin in the game. I work in the biomedical field and have first hand experience of the mismanagement of the absurdity of for profit health care. The management of everything by this administration is profoundly inept, with scare tactics on immigration getting very old. If that is the overriding priority of this government, at the expense of civil and human rights then I ‘m sorry, but a vote cast for that is indefensible.

[Mikey Brown]

Just popping my head in to see how the intervention is going. You swayed her yet?

[Puja]

Just popping my head in to see how the intervention is going. You swayed her yet?

Evil triumphs when good men don't argue against it on an internet message board.

Puja

[Coco]

Well, Since I do see the facilities here and how the children are kept, rather than relying on an inaccurate narrative to push open borders, I am comfortable in my opinion. The kids are getting fed decent meals, getting medical care, getting schooling and even learning English, have access to phones, counselors, and even had a playground and soccer field built so they can get outdoors, get fresh air and run around. I have not been to any facility in Texas and there is high probability the facilities have not quickly evolved in to something like the 2 I have been to. Its not even close to perfect but it is a work in progress... and it IS getting better.

To your finger pointing, opinions, and attempt at shaming... how about you do you and Ill do me. If it makes you feel better, go on and on and on at me with your reactionary "Wokeness". The reality, like it or not, is that you are on the sidelines with your knee-jerk thoughts about it, and I am still going to be responsive and help where I can in the reality of it. It matters not to me, but the parroting of what youve heard or read is not helping anyone except maybe yourselves in to "feeling" better. Id rather get my hands dirty to try my best to make that particular situation better. Making the border situation the reason I should cast my vote a certain way is to put aside everything else that is important to me and my family, my community, and our lives. We disagree for whatever reasons. Get over yourselves.

[Coco]

"How could I have known the President I voted for would do what he's done! BTW, voting for him again next year."


Unbelievable.

Do you read and understand, take in to consideration anything that doesnt align with your opinion?

[Coco]

Just popping my head in to see how the intervention is going. You swayed her yet?

Somebody told me thered be cookies... I cannot be swayed without cookies.