Brexit delayed

[Mellsblue]

Yep. Second ref, god help us all for that month, with defined outcomes. Probably remain, WA and no deal as options. Even Cable is happy to vote for the WA subject to a ref on those options. Unfortunately, whilst it’ll end the debate politically, this s**t will rumble on for years regardless of the result.
Still annoys me that entrenched Remoaner MPs will get what they want by acting like petulant school children. I aim that mainly at Conservatives Remoaners who happily stood on manifestos against their beliefs, and took the support this brings with it, and then refused to stand by that manifesto.

[Sandydragon]

It’s the least shit option. A general election wing really settle the issue as I don’t think any one party will get a majority. As painful as it would be, a second clear referendum with specific options would at least settle the debate.

Well unless remain win in which case it will get more embittered but unless we completely leave there will always be complaints of betrayal.

[Stom]

Yep. Second ref, god help us all for that month, with defined outcomes. Probably remain, WA and no deal as options. Even Cable is happy to vote for the WA subject to a ref on those options. Unfortunately, whilst it’ll end the debate politically, this s**t will rumble on for years regardless of the result.
Still annoys me that entrenched Remoaner MPs will get what they want by acting like petulant school children. I aim that mainly at Conservatives Remoaners who happily stood on manifestos against their beliefs, and took the support this brings with it, and then refused to stand by that manifesto.

I don't think any UK politician really comes out of this well...

[Mellsblue]

Yep. Second ref, god help us all for that month, with defined outcomes. Probably remain, WA and no deal as options. Even Cable is happy to vote for the WA subject to a ref on those options. Unfortunately, whilst it’ll end the debate politically, this s**t will rumble on for years regardless of the result.
Still annoys me that entrenched Remoaner MPs will get what they want by acting like petulant school children. I aim that mainly at Conservatives Remoaners who happily stood on manifestos against their beliefs, and took the support this brings with it, and then refused to stand by that manifesto.

I don't think any UK politician really comes out of this well...

Agreed. It’s been an absolute s**t show. The repercussions will be ‘interesting’ to watch.

[Digby]

Unfortunately, whilst it’ll end the debate politically, this s**t will rumble on for years regardless of the result.
Still annoys me that entrenched Remoaner MPs will get what they want by acting like petulant school children. I aim that mainly at Conservatives Remoaners who happily stood on manifestos against their beliefs, and took the support this brings with it, and then refused to stand by that manifesto.

One, this will all rumble on for years whatever happens, there's not going to be closure beyond I suspect most people will eventually stop wanting to think about it.

Two, what was the practical alternative for Tory MPs who want to be in the EU, or certainly in the customs union and single market, had they all for instance stood down as Tory MPs at May's hastily announced GE would that have made you happy? What if they'd all stood as Independents split the Tory vote and the gibbering lunacy of Corbyn had entered Downing St, still happy?

[Mellsblue]

Unfortunately, whilst it’ll end the debate politically, this s**t will rumble on for years regardless of the result.
Still annoys me that entrenched Remoaner MPs will get what they want by acting like petulant school children. I aim that mainly at Conservatives Remoaners who happily stood on manifestos against their beliefs, and took the support this brings with it, and then refused to stand by that manifesto.

One, this will all rumble on for years whatever happens, there's not going to be closure beyond I suspect most people will eventually stop wanting to think about it.

Two, what was the practical alternative for Tory MPs who want to be in the EU, or certainly in the customs union and single market, had they all for instance stood down as Tory MPs at May's hastily announced GE would that have made you happy? What if they'd all stood as Independents split the Tory vote and the gibbering lunacy of Corbyn had entered Downing St, still happy?

I wasn’t saying the second ref would cause this to rumble on for ever. Just that it would only solve one very immediate issue and not the many long term ones that have been sown.

If they felt that strongly about staying in the EU they’ve could’ve resigned from the party and stood for the Lib Dems or they could accept the result of a referendum they brought into law. It’s pretty simple. If you don’t agree with a major plank of your party's manifesto you either resign from the party or you accept that is the platform you stood on and seek to change party policy on future manifestos. You don’t seek to frustrate that manifesto.

[Digby]

Unfortunately, whilst it’ll end the debate politically, this s**t will rumble on for years regardless of the result.
Still annoys me that entrenched Remoaner MPs will get what they want by acting like petulant school children. I aim that mainly at Conservatives Remoaners who happily stood on manifestos against their beliefs, and took the support this brings with it, and then refused to stand by that manifesto.

One, this will all rumble on for years whatever happens, there's not going to be closure beyond I suspect most people will eventually stop wanting to think about it.

Two, what was the practical alternative for Tory MPs who want to be in the EU, or certainly in the customs union and single market, had they all for instance stood down as Tory MPs at May's hastily announced GE would that have made you happy? What if they'd all stood as Independents split the Tory vote and the gibbering lunacy of Corbyn had entered Downing St, still happy?

I wasn’t saying the second ref would cause this to rumble on for ever. Just that it would only solve one very immediate issue and not the many long term ones that have been sown.

If they felt that strongly about staying in the EU they’ve could’ve resigned from the party and stood for the Lib Dems or they could accept the result of a referendum they brought into law. It’s pretty simple. If you don’t agree with a major plank of your party's manifesto you either resign from the party or you accept that is the platform you stood on and seek to change party policy on future manifestos. You don’t seek to frustrate that manifesto.

Or you explicitly vote against manifesto after manifesto and end up party leader. Though I take your point you'd have preferred them not to stand as Tories or toe the line

(Though to show what a manifesto is worth the Tories also said they'd address fair corporate pay, and they also reaffirmed a commitment to the GFA, so...)

Where the pro single market and customs union MPs may have a point, beyond the party position on Europe had veered sharply in just two years (and clearly many pro Brexit weren't respectful of previous manifestos) is the manifesto did say they'd leave the single market and customs union, but also said they'd pursue free trade, and there's been precious little delivered on the free trade. I suspect for those who have concerns leaving would be assuaged in their concerns if they felt the negotiations beyond the WA weren't going to be so strongly informed by lunatic claims we'd be fine trading on WTO terms and/or by a mentality we can have our cake and eat it when it comes to leaving the EU and having EU market access. And thus they could say, and with some justification, that many Brexiters aren't adhering to the manifesto either when it comes to free trade, essentially they're all damned by the observation they don't hold to the manifesto they stood on, plus ca change

[Mellsblue]

One, this will all rumble on for years whatever happens, there's not going to be closure beyond I suspect most people will eventually stop wanting to think about it.

Two, what was the practical alternative for Tory MPs who want to be in the EU, or certainly in the customs union and single market, had they all for instance stood down as Tory MPs at May's hastily announced GE would that have made you happy? What if they'd all stood as Independents split the Tory vote and the gibbering lunacy of Corbyn had entered Downing St, still happy?

I wasn’t saying the second ref would cause this to rumble on for ever. Just that it would only solve one very immediate issue and not the many long term ones that have been sown.

If they felt that strongly about staying in the EU they’ve could’ve resigned from the party and stood for the Lib Dems or they could accept the result of a referendum they brought into law. It’s pretty simple. If you don’t agree with a major plank of your party's manifesto you either resign from the party or you accept that is the platform you stood on and seek to change party policy on future manifestos. You don’t seek to frustrate that manifesto.

Or you explicitly vote against manifesto after manifesto and end up party leader. Though I take your point you'd have preferred them not to stand as Tories or toe the line

(Though to show what a manifesto is worth the Tories also said they'd address fair corporate pay, and they also reaffirmed a commitment to the GFA, so...)

Where the pro single market and customs union MPs may have a point, beyond the party position on Europe had veered sharply in just two years (and clearly many pro Brexit weren't respectful of previous manifestos) is the manifesto did say they'd leave the single market and customs union, but also said they'd pursue free trade, and there's been precious little delivered on the free trade. I suspect for those who have concerns leaving would be assuaged in their concerns if they felt the negotiations beyond the WA weren't going to be so strongly informed by lunatic claims we'd be fine trading on WTO terms and/or by a mentality we can have our cake and eat it when it comes to leaving the EU and having EU market access. And thus they could say, and with some justification, that many Brexiters aren't adhering to the manifesto either when it comes to free trade, essentially they're all damned by the observation they don't hold to the manifesto they stood on, plus ca change

Best not to cite Corbyn in defence of your argument! I know it was tongue in cheek.
I agree that WTO nutters are indeed nutters and not honouring their manifesto or indeed the platform/manifesto the Leave campaign stood on during the ref. As for movement in free trade, it’s difficult to do much on free trade when we are explicitly stopped from negotiating FTA’s whilst still in the EU. Numerous things have achieved, though. Even if that is just rolling over existing agreements or signing memorandums of understanding that FTA talks will start immediately once the UK leaves the EU.
Mention of cake and eating it apply to Boris and his ilk but also those Conservatives and Lab MPs who stood on pro-Brexit manifestos, and took all the advantages standing for one of the big (quantity not quality) two, but refused to then respect that manifesto.
As Stom said, very few politicians come out of this well. By arguing the Remoaners are hypocrites I’m not seeking to absolve those at the other end of the spectrum.

[Mellsblue]

I agree with an awful lot of this:

PHILIP COLLINS

Better to leave the EU than make a hero of Farage

philip collins

Remainers should see that letting Brexit happen may be smarter in the long run than allowing a grievance to fester


Nigel Farage was always destined to be the winner in the great Brexit fiasco. Either Britain leaves the European Union, in which case his political mission is fulfilled, or we do not, in which case his political career is revived. His best and most dangerous days might now be ahead of him. Mr Farage can and should be stopped but, alas, all the people who most want him arrested are ushering him into the spotlight. The choice is a stark one: leave the EU and cut off Farage’s supply of oxygen or carry on the campaign to remain.

If Britain does not leave the EU then Nigel Farage will be a fixture in British politics. The thwarting of the 2016 referendum will be the incarnate grievance on which his politics thrives. He has nothing else but it is all he needs. At his rally in Huddersfield this week, Mr Farage tried out a line that we are going to hear a lot. This is not even about Europe, he said. This is about democracy.

Mr Farage is pulling the populist trick at its most magical. The people have been cheated of their inheritance, he says, and I, the popular tribune, am here to confront truths that the elite can only avoid.

There is a real problem here, which is deeper than the oleaginous hail-fellow-well-met, phoney pub-soaked xenophobia of the man. The real problem is that he has hold of a nasty little germ of truth.

Of all the historic nationalisms, and all their current manifestations, English nationalism frightens me least. There is a different story to tell, on another day, of the imperial legacies of the English around the world but, domestically at least, English nationalism is a dog that can hardly bark. The European continent was convulsed and then set aflame by nationalisms during the 20th century. Britain avoided the excess and will probably do so again.


Though I loathe his mimicry of their populist methods, it is hard to envisage Mr Farage as the equivalent of the Le Pen family in France or the Brexit Party as a viable vanguard to disgrace such as the AfD in Germany or Viktor Orbán’s Fidesz in Hungary. Radical nationalists are likely to do well across Europe in next week’s European elections and it will be tempting to lump Mr Farage into their pit.

Tempting but wrong. Britain is, in this case, exceptional. The threat of Mr Farage is not a prelude to politics that are truly dark. If we end up staying in the EU, I predict there won’t be riots in the streets. Anger will be expressed in the coming campaign but a lot of it will be synthetic, puffed-up, pretend anger about an issue (Europe) that, if only we can recall the times when we used to discuss other things, doesn’t matter nearly as much as everyone involved seems to think.


No, the risk of Faragism is not to be found in any invigorating passion. The risk is a vast deposit of cynicism, a boost to the popular myth that politicians are all liars and democracy yields no benefits to benighted people like us. Politics, in this reckoning, is a conspiracy against the people. Eventually, there are no winners when an idea like this gets its boots on.

There is a foolproof way of preventing this undesirable outcome and that is to leave the EU, as arranged. There is close to zero chance of this happening so all we can do is to spell out the consequences of not leaving so that we might at least proceed in plain sight. The immediate beneficiaries of upgraded cynicism are Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage. Mr Corbyn benefits because a Tory government that has failed to deliver Brexit is toast. It only had one job and it cannot do it. The Labour Party could be led by someone as hopeless as Mr Corbyn (oops, it is, apparently) and could hardly fail to win power in such circumstances.

While Mr Corbyn sets about nationalising the electricity supply, Mr Farage will be free to nurse his grievance. His case — that a solemn promise has not been redeemed — will be hard to answer. A second referendum which led to a reversal of the first would entrench the Faragist narrative of betrayal into British politics for decades to come. But if Brexit actually took place, it would end his political career. There are plenty of people who care about the EU sufficiently to say that Mr Farage cannot be allowed his victory. But let’s be clear about this — there is a choice. Leave the EU and bid farewell to Farage, and perhaps to Corbyn, or remain and see the two of them prosper. Is it worth the prize? Not for my money.

I feel I am in a category of one as someone whose view on Europe is that I would like to go back in. Leaving the EU is a mistake and, as the consequences unfold and a new generation comes to political maturity, that mistake will become plain. Nothing is for ever and Britain could seek to reverse its course once remorse has set in. Yet you can only be an advocate of going back in once you have left.

Imagine the difference in the atmosphere if, instead of launching the People’s Vote campaign, the Remain side of the argument had accepted the result and sought to make the feasible best of Brexit. Then, when the process fell into its own contradictions, the fault would unarguably have lain with the advocates, rather than the critics, of Brexit. A moment would come when, in sorrow rather than anger, it would have been possible to argue for a change of course.

Instead, we are going to have to take the unscenic detour via Faragism. Someone other than Mr Farage could express popular irritation that Britain has not left the EU, as the main party manifestos pledged, without rhetorical appeals to all that is most unforgiving and unpleasant in us. Mr Farage will not resist the temptation to be visceral, simplistic and cheap. Good leadership is about turning discontent to positive account but Mr Farage has no interest in that. He has nothing to say that is not cynical, nothing to offer that doesn’t make things worse.

It would therefore be naive to deny the political costs of remaining in the EU. By all means argue that the economic gain tips heavier on the scales than the political loss (though I disagree) but don’t pretend it’s all upside. The politics of leaving the EU have proven to be childish and divisive but they will be a monument to the wisdom of man when set beside the politics of not leaving the EU. The Brexit Party and the anti-Brexit movement are in lock-step and one will follow the other, like night after day.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bett ... -z3bb2cxlz

[Digby]

The issue I have with the Collins columns is he's continually presenting them as a pragmatic way forwards, when in reality they're only one model of what the future could hold, along with not leaving, a hard WTO Brexit and all manner of fudge in-between, and his solution would annoy a great many as will any other outcome yet I infer at least he's suggesting there is a rallying point.

There's also the other issue I'll now have Sssudio stuck in my head, the bastard

[Mellsblue]

There's also the other issue I'll now have Sssudio stuck in my head, the bastard

Another repercussion of Brexit that no one saw coming and probably the most important one.

[Puja]

I agree with an awful lot of this:

PHILIP COLLINS

Better to leave the EU than make a hero of Farage

philip collins

Remainers should see that letting Brexit happen may be smarter in the long run than allowing a grievance to fester


Nigel Farage was always destined to be the winner in the great Brexit fiasco. Either Britain leaves the European Union, in which case his political mission is fulfilled, or we do not, in which case his political career is revived. His best and most dangerous days might now be ahead of him. Mr Farage can and should be stopped but, alas, all the people who most want him arrested are ushering him into the spotlight. The choice is a stark one: leave the EU and cut off Farage’s supply of oxygen or carry on the campaign to remain.

If Britain does not leave the EU then Nigel Farage will be a fixture in British politics. The thwarting of the 2016 referendum will be the incarnate grievance on which his politics thrives. He has nothing else but it is all he needs. At his rally in Huddersfield this week, Mr Farage tried out a line that we are going to hear a lot. This is not even about Europe, he said. This is about democracy.

Mr Farage is pulling the populist trick at its most magical. The people have been cheated of their inheritance, he says, and I, the popular tribune, am here to confront truths that the elite can only avoid.

There is a real problem here, which is deeper than the oleaginous hail-fellow-well-met, phoney pub-soaked xenophobia of the man. The real problem is that he has hold of a nasty little germ of truth.

Of all the historic nationalisms, and all their current manifestations, English nationalism frightens me least. There is a different story to tell, on another day, of the imperial legacies of the English around the world but, domestically at least, English nationalism is a dog that can hardly bark. The European continent was convulsed and then set aflame by nationalisms during the 20th century. Britain avoided the excess and will probably do so again.


Though I loathe his mimicry of their populist methods, it is hard to envisage Mr Farage as the equivalent of the Le Pen family in France or the Brexit Party as a viable vanguard to disgrace such as the AfD in Germany or Viktor Orbán’s Fidesz in Hungary. Radical nationalists are likely to do well across Europe in next week’s European elections and it will be tempting to lump Mr Farage into their pit.

Tempting but wrong. Britain is, in this case, exceptional. The threat of Mr Farage is not a prelude to politics that are truly dark. If we end up staying in the EU, I predict there won’t be riots in the streets. Anger will be expressed in the coming campaign but a lot of it will be synthetic, puffed-up, pretend anger about an issue (Europe) that, if only we can recall the times when we used to discuss other things, doesn’t matter nearly as much as everyone involved seems to think.


No, the risk of Faragism is not to be found in any invigorating passion. The risk is a vast deposit of cynicism, a boost to the popular myth that politicians are all liars and democracy yields no benefits to benighted people like us. Politics, in this reckoning, is a conspiracy against the people. Eventually, there are no winners when an idea like this gets its boots on.

There is a foolproof way of preventing this undesirable outcome and that is to leave the EU, as arranged. There is close to zero chance of this happening so all we can do is to spell out the consequences of not leaving so that we might at least proceed in plain sight. The immediate beneficiaries of upgraded cynicism are Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage. Mr Corbyn benefits because a Tory government that has failed to deliver Brexit is toast. It only had one job and it cannot do it. The Labour Party could be led by someone as hopeless as Mr Corbyn (oops, it is, apparently) and could hardly fail to win power in such circumstances.

While Mr Corbyn sets about nationalising the electricity supply, Mr Farage will be free to nurse his grievance. His case — that a solemn promise has not been redeemed — will be hard to answer. A second referendum which led to a reversal of the first would entrench the Faragist narrative of betrayal into British politics for decades to come. But if Brexit actually took place, it would end his political career. There are plenty of people who care about the EU sufficiently to say that Mr Farage cannot be allowed his victory. But let’s be clear about this — there is a choice. Leave the EU and bid farewell to Farage, and perhaps to Corbyn, or remain and see the two of them prosper. Is it worth the prize? Not for my money.

I feel I am in a category of one as someone whose view on Europe is that I would like to go back in. Leaving the EU is a mistake and, as the consequences unfold and a new generation comes to political maturity, that mistake will become plain. Nothing is for ever and Britain could seek to reverse its course once remorse has set in. Yet you can only be an advocate of going back in once you have left.

Imagine the difference in the atmosphere if, instead of launching the People’s Vote campaign, the Remain side of the argument had accepted the result and sought to make the feasible best of Brexit. Then, when the process fell into its own contradictions, the fault would unarguably have lain with the advocates, rather than the critics, of Brexit. A moment would come when, in sorrow rather than anger, it would have been possible to argue for a change of course.

Instead, we are going to have to take the unscenic detour via Faragism. Someone other than Mr Farage could express popular irritation that Britain has not left the EU, as the main party manifestos pledged, without rhetorical appeals to all that is most unforgiving and unpleasant in us. Mr Farage will not resist the temptation to be visceral, simplistic and cheap. Good leadership is about turning discontent to positive account but Mr Farage has no interest in that. He has nothing to say that is not cynical, nothing to offer that doesn’t make things worse.

It would therefore be naive to deny the political costs of remaining in the EU. By all means argue that the economic gain tips heavier on the scales than the political loss (though I disagree) but don’t pretend it’s all upside. The politics of leaving the EU have proven to be childish and divisive but they will be a monument to the wisdom of man when set beside the politics of not leaving the EU. The Brexit Party and the anti-Brexit movement are in lock-step and one will follow the other, like night after day.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bett ... -z3bb2cxlz

The problem with that is that it expects both demagogues and nationalists to be consistent and logical. Yes, not leaving the EU will empower Farage further, but he wom't go away if we leave. If we left and the magical unicorn land happened, then maybe, but if we leave and there's a recession or other privations bite, then there will be angry people and where there's angry people, there's support for the magical blame toad who can tell you why it's not your fault and why it's actually because of some other group. Mainstream politicians, perhaps, for screwing up the negotiations, or the EU citizens still in the country because we let them stay and they're still taking our jobs. Or perhaps Europe itself for being mean to us.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Biggest surprise being the Conservatives managing to gain 1%.

[Banquo]

Biggest surprise being the Conservatives managing to gain 1%.

Change UK really have dropped the ball. Parties who support Brexit on 68% (though that assumes Labour do ).

[Sandydragon]

The Brexit party is getting a lot of attention and we can safely assume that it’s supports just want to leave the EU with no deal. Remain supporting parties are in the mid 20% and the rest don’t know.

Seems about right actually.

[Banquo]

The Brexit party is getting a lot of attention and we can safely assume that it’s supports just want to leave the EU with no deal. Remain supporting parties are in the mid 20% and the rest don’t know.

Seems about right actually.

To be clear, you are saying the total % for all Remain Parties is in the mid 20's?

[Sandydragon]

The Brexit party is getting a lot of attention and we can safely assume that it’s supports just want to leave the EU with no deal. Remain supporting parties are in the mid 20% and the rest don’t know.

Seems about right actually.

To be clear, you are saying the total % for all Remain Parties is in the mid 20's?

Greens, Lib Dem and ChangeUK together have been polling in the mid 20% range.

If the remainders could get themselves organised, they could make an impact. But it does feel like the impetus is with the betrayed Brexiteers.

[Banquo]

The Brexit party is getting a lot of attention and we can safely assume that it’s supports just want to leave the EU with no deal. Remain supporting parties are in the mid 20% and the rest don’t know.

Seems about right actually.

To be clear, you are saying the total % for all Remain Parties is in the mid 20's?

Greens, Lib Dem and ChangeUK together have been polling in the mid 20% range.

If the remainders could get themselves organised, they could make an impact. But it does feel like the impetus is with the betrayed Brexiteers.

yep and fraid so; Change UK especially have missed an open goal.

[Stom]

To be clear, you are saying the total % for all Remain Parties is in the mid 20's?

Greens, Lib Dem and ChangeUK together have been polling in the mid 20% range.

If the remainders could get themselves organised, they could make an impact. But it does feel like the impetus is with the betrayed Brexiteers.

yep and fraid so; Change UK especially have missed an open goal.

Change UK are full of unelectables. I don't think they had a goal to miss...

[Banquo]

Greens, Lib Dem and ChangeUK together have been polling in the mid 20% range.

If the remainders could get themselves organised, they could make an impact. But it does feel like the impetus is with the betrayed Brexiteers.

yep and fraid so; Change UK especially have missed an open goal.

Change UK are full of unelectables. I don't think they had a goal to miss...

that's two different points. The ground they propound to occupy is fertile (namely centre and anti-Brexit). And all were elected, and in some cases, Heidi Allen for one, Berger for another, had a bright future. The rest vary Soubry is awful, I grant you.

[Digby]

yep and fraid so; Change UK especially have missed an open goal.

Change UK are full of unelectables. I don't think they had a goal to miss...

that's two different points. The ground they propound to occupy is fertile (namely centre and anti-Brexit). And all were elected, and in some cases, Heidi Allen for one, Berger for another, had a bright future. The rest vary Soubry is awful, I grant you.

I like them as a group, most of them I'd happily vote for. Though I'm not surprised that starting with a blank piece of paper and no party structure they're for now little more than a talking shop. I'll vote for them on Thursday, and hope that whatever else happens this likely to be aborted attempt at a new party is only a first try and will not be a fair measure of the whole experience

[Stom]

Change UK are full of unelectables. I don't think they had a goal to miss...

that's two different points. The ground they propound to occupy is fertile (namely centre and anti-Brexit). And all were elected, and in some cases, Heidi Allen for one, Berger for another, had a bright future. The rest vary Soubry is awful, I grant you.

I like them as a group, most of them I'd happily vote for. Though I'm not surprised that starting with a blank piece of paper and no party structure they're for now little more than a talking shop. I'll vote for them on Thursday, and hope that whatever else happens this likely to be aborted attempt at a new party is only a first try and will not be a fair measure of the whole experience

Well, there we are. Digby's given them the kiss of death.

[Banquo]

Change UK are full of unelectables. I don't think they had a goal to miss...

that's two different points. The ground they propound to occupy is fertile (namely centre and anti-Brexit). And all were elected, and in some cases, Heidi Allen for one, Berger for another, had a bright future. The rest vary Soubry is awful, I grant you.

I like them as a group, most of them I'd happily vote for. Though I'm not surprised that starting with a blank piece of paper and no party structure they're for now little more than a talking shop. I'll vote for them on Thursday, and hope that whatever else happens this likely to be aborted attempt at a new party is only a first try and will not be a fair measure of the whole experience

Brexit Party have done better with less

[Banquo]

that's two different points. The ground they propound to occupy is fertile (namely centre and anti-Brexit). And all were elected, and in some cases, Heidi Allen for one, Berger for another, had a bright future. The rest vary Soubry is awful, I grant you.

I like them as a group, most of them I'd happily vote for. Though I'm not surprised that starting with a blank piece of paper and no party structure they're for now little more than a talking shop. I'll vote for them on Thursday, and hope that whatever else happens this likely to be aborted attempt at a new party is only a first try and will not be a fair measure of the whole experience

Well, there we are. Digby's given them the kiss of death.

[Mellsblue]

I like them as a group, most of them I'd happily vote for. Though I'm not surprised that starting with a blank piece of paper and no party structure they're for now little more than a talking shop. I'll vote for them on Thursday, and hope that whatever else happens this likely to be aborted attempt at a new party is only a first try and will not be a fair measure of the whole experience

Well, there we are. Digby's given them the kiss of death.

First Kvesic, now Change UK.