Brexit delayed

[Mellsblue]

That ship has already sailed - they'll get 5-12 seats at the next election whenever it's held, just simply from the "BRETRAYL!!1!" loonies. There's an argument that it'd be better to have that than it would be to have the mainstream right party lurching over that way to try and attract the loony vote.

Puja

Or we just enact a Brexit that respects the referendum result and avoid the possibility completely. It’s also a good idea not to have UKIP/Farage in parliament whilst we are still negotiating our exit. Everyone has had a big enough meltdown about the DUP holding any sway. Imagine if UKIP hold the balance of power, as they do similar parties in liberal democracies very similar to ours.
Can we please look outside of the Brexit vortex.

Oh. Cool. How?

Puja

By the politicians growing up. Not going to happen I know, but an election won’t solve that problem.

[Mellsblue]

The Government has already failed; if they fail even more,
they need to step aside.

To be replaced by?? You reckon Labour have anymore of a united front. They 3 line whipped for the indicative votes and still chaos.

Wasn't advocating a wasteful GE, just frustration at the Executive.

The executive has made an absolute balls up of it but parliament as whole haven’t been any better.
I also feel incredibly frustrated but a GE isn’t the way out of it. Sadly, if next week doesn’t yield a result, I think a second ref is. That pains me to say, as those who have refused to accept the result from day one get rewarded for chucking their toys out the pram.
Whichever way we find out of this mess, the fallout will not be pretty.

[Which Tyler]

There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"

Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.

[Banquo]

There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"

Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.

Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).

[Mellsblue]

There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"

Do you you have any evidence for this?

As for Brexiteers compromising, I’ll stick to the line that they won so shouldn’t have to compromise. It was a binary referendum, after all.

Tbh, I was just talking about MPs (if you knew this, I’d love to see your evidence).

That it has become a fuck up is on Remainers as well as Brexiteers. I doubt both sides would have become as entrenched as they have if Remain MPs had worked constructively towards enacting the result of the referendum. We’d probably be serenely sailing towards Common Market 2.0 if they had. As it is, there has been a very obvious sense that a large number were looking to overturn the result from day 1.

[Mellsblue]

Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).

Agree with all of this, with the caveat that there will never be a massive win either way. Depressingly, even once politically and legally resolved, this will rumble on for years.

[Sandydragon]

There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"

Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.

Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).

The problem is that I think another referendum would be close, possibly to stay. All depending on the question of course.

Right now it wouldn’t surprise me though if a second referendum question that advocated hard Brexit got a majority.

[Banquo]

There really aren't many who never accepted the result, far far more rabid leavers who have refused to compromise.
I think you're confusing "people who accepted the result, gave it a chance, and then despaired at the fuck up it all became" with "people who never accepted the result"

Second referendum is comfortably our best shot out of this mess, but that somewhere around 5-10% chance of success. It is literally the only option that carries any chance of making things better.

Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).

The problem is that I think another referendum would be close, possibly to stay. All depending on the question of course.

Right now it wouldn’t surprise me though if a second referendum question that advocated hard Brexit got a majority.

hence saying why I don't think a referendum will resolve it. Plus, I don't think a 2nd ref will have no-deal on the paper.

[morepork]

Theresa May's Scissored Isle

[Mellsblue]

Neither of us can prove it, but I really disagree with the highlighted stuff- I know loads of folks who simply don't accept the result,,,,,,,,,and I genuinely don't think a referendum will resolve it, save a massive win for one side (or the other).

The problem is that I think another referendum would be close, possibly to stay. All depending on the question of course.

Right now it wouldn’t surprise me though if a second referendum question that advocated hard Brexit got a majority.

hence saying why I don't think a referendum will resolve it. Plus, I don't think a 2nd ref will have no-deal on the paper.

Yep. No way this would be allowed. I think we’re heading for double whammy of a second ref with Remain and whatever the MPs decide on next week on the ballot paper, with the possibility the WA will be on there as well (not that I can see the need, Common Mrkt 2.0 is WA lite). That will drive the Brexiteers mental (rightly) and we’ll still have to go through the hell of another ref.

[Banquo]

The problem is that I think another referendum would be close, possibly to stay. All depending on the question of course.

Right now it wouldn’t surprise me though if a second referendum question that advocated hard Brexit got a majority.

hence saying why I don't think a referendum will resolve it. Plus, I don't think a 2nd ref will have no-deal on the paper.

Yep. No way this would be allowed. I think we’re heading for double whammy of a second ref with Remain and whatever the MPs decide on next week on the ballot paper, with the possibility the WA will be on there as well (not that I can see the need, Common Mrkt 2.0 is WA lite). That will drive the Brexiteers mental (rightly) and we’ll still have to go through the hell of another ref.

I still don't understand the likes of Francois grabbing defeat from the jaws of at least a partial win.

[Mellsblue]

hence saying why I don't think a referendum will resolve it. Plus, I don't think a 2nd ref will have no-deal on the paper.

Yep. No way this would be allowed. I think we’re heading for double whammy of a second ref with Remain and whatever the MPs decide on next week on the ballot paper, with the possibility the WA will be on there as well (not that I can see the need, Common Mrkt 2.0 is WA lite). That will drive the Brexiteers mental (rightly) and we’ll still have to go through the hell of another ref.

I still don't understand the likes of Francois grabbing defeat from the jaws of at least a partial win.

I know. Mental. He doesn’t come across as the sharpest, though, so maybe we shouldn’t be so surprised.

Part of me thinks some of them would rather be seen to die in the trenches and fight a glorious resistance when they lose, than get 70/80% of what they want. Similar to the pure Corbynista’s, in some ways. In fact, I might use that comparison more often. It’ll drive both groups mad.

[Banquo]

Yep. No way this would be allowed. I think we’re heading for double whammy of a second ref with Remain and whatever the MPs decide on next week on the ballot paper, with the possibility the WA will be on there as well (not that I can see the need, Common Mrkt 2.0 is WA lite). That will drive the Brexiteers mental (rightly) and we’ll still have to go through the hell of another ref.

I still don't understand the likes of Francois grabbing defeat from the jaws of at least a partial win.

I know. Mental. He doesn’t come across as the sharpest, though, so maybe we shouldn’t be so surprised.

Part of me thinks some of them would rather be seen to die in the trenches and fight a glorious resistance when they lose, than get 70/80% of what they want. Similar to the pure Corbynista’s, in some ways. In fact, I might use that comparison more often. It’ll drive both groups mad.

He is dim, as are a lot of the gang of 34. Its a weird alliance voting against the WA when you think about it; for example, I'm pretty sure there are more Labour MPs like Mann who want to vote for the WA, but suspect its less about keeping the party line, than not being 'the one' who ensured we leave the EU.

[Mellsblue]

I still don't understand the likes of Francois grabbing defeat from the jaws of at least a partial win.

I know. Mental. He doesn’t come across as the sharpest, though, so maybe we shouldn’t be so surprised.

Part of me thinks some of them would rather be seen to die in the trenches and fight a glorious resistance when they lose, than get 70/80% of what they want. Similar to the pure Corbynista’s, in some ways. In fact, I might use that comparison more often. It’ll drive both groups mad.

He is dim, as are a lot of the gang of 34. Its a weird alliance voting against the WA when you think about it; for example, I'm pretty sure there are more Labour MPs like Mann who want to vote for the WA, but suspect its less about keeping the party line, than not being 'the one' who ensured we leave the EU.

The WA is so close to Labour’s ‘official’ Brexit policy that party politics is the only thing stopping them from voting for it. The major difference is the end to freedom of movement but that would keep a lot of their traditional leave voters happy so.....well, who knows.

It’s an omnishambles from top to bottom, left to right and start to finish.

[Banquo]

I know. Mental. He doesn’t come across as the sharpest, though, so maybe we shouldn’t be so surprised.

Part of me thinks some of them would rather be seen to die in the trenches and fight a glorious resistance when they lose, than get 70/80% of what they want. Similar to the pure Corbynista’s, in some ways. In fact, I might use that comparison more often. It’ll drive both groups mad.

He is dim, as are a lot of the gang of 34. Its a weird alliance voting against the WA when you think about it; for example, I'm pretty sure there are more Labour MPs like Mann who want to vote for the WA, but suspect its less about keeping the party line, than not being 'the one' who ensured we leave the EU.

The WA is so close to Labour’s ‘official’ Brexit policy that party politics is the only thing stopping them from voting for it. The major difference is the end to freedom of movement but that would keep a lot of their traditional leave voters happy so.....well, who knows.

It’s an omnishambles from top to bottom, left to right and start to finish.

Starmer said as much on the Beeb before the vote.

[Mellsblue]

He is dim, as are a lot of the gang of 34. Its a weird alliance voting against the WA when you think about it; for example, I'm pretty sure there are more Labour MPs like Mann who want to vote for the WA, but suspect its less about keeping the party line, than not being 'the one' who ensured we leave the EU.

The WA is so close to Labour’s ‘official’ Brexit policy that party politics is the only thing stopping them from voting for it. The major difference is the end to freedom of movement but that would keep a lot of their traditional leave voters happy so.....well, who knows.

It’s an omnishambles from top to bottom, left to right and start to finish.

Starmer said as much on the Beeb before the vote.

Finally, some honesty. Not that it got us anywhere.

[Banquo]

The WA is so close to Labour’s ‘official’ Brexit policy that party politics is the only thing stopping them from voting for it. The major difference is the end to freedom of movement but that would keep a lot of their traditional leave voters happy so.....well, who knows.

It’s an omnishambles from top to bottom, left to right and start to finish.

Starmer said as much on the Beeb before the vote.

Finally, some honesty. Not that it got us anywhere.

he wheedled on the political declaration being decoupled.

[Puja]

The problem is that I think another referendum would be close, possibly to stay. All depending on the question of course.

Right now it wouldn’t surprise me though if a second referendum question that advocated hard Brexit got a majority.

hence saying why I don't think a referendum will resolve it. Plus, I don't think a 2nd ref will have no-deal on the paper.

Yep. No way this would be allowed. I think we’re heading for double whammy of a second ref with Remain and whatever the MPs decide on next week on the ballot paper, with the possibility the WA will be on there as well (not that I can see the need, Common Mrkt 2.0 is WA lite). That will drive the Brexiteers mental (rightly) and we’ll still have to go through the hell of another ref.

If we're going to do a second ref, then it surely has to be a preference one with Remain, Withdrawal Agreement, and No Deal on there. That way we can actually see if "The Will Of The People" (TM) can get a majority for one of those on first and second choice votes.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

hence saying why I don't think a referendum will resolve it. Plus, I don't think a 2nd ref will have no-deal on the paper.

Yep. No way this would be allowed. I think we’re heading for double whammy of a second ref with Remain and whatever the MPs decide on next week on the ballot paper, with the possibility the WA will be on there as well (not that I can see the need, Common Mrkt 2.0 is WA lite). That will drive the Brexiteers mental (rightly) and we’ll still have to go through the hell of another ref.

If we're going to do a second ref, then it surely has to be a preference one with Remain, Withdrawal Agreement, and No Deal on there. That way we can actually see if "The Will Of The People" (TM) can get a majority for one of those on first and second choice votes.

Puja

I doubt parliament will allow no deal on to the ballot paper. The only reason to have a second ref is to try to overturn the first, not to enable a hard Brexit.

[Stom]

Yep. No way this would be allowed. I think we’re heading for double whammy of a second ref with Remain and whatever the MPs decide on next week on the ballot paper, with the possibility the WA will be on there as well (not that I can see the need, Common Mrkt 2.0 is WA lite). That will drive the Brexiteers mental (rightly) and we’ll still have to go through the hell of another ref.

If we're going to do a second ref, then it surely has to be a preference one with Remain, Withdrawal Agreement, and No Deal on there. That way we can actually see if "The Will Of The People" (TM) can get a majority for one of those on first and second choice votes.

Puja

I doubt parliament will allow no deal on to the ballot paper. The only reason to have a second ref is to try to overturn the first, not to enable a hard Brexit.

Surely the point of a ref is to remove a block from Parliament...if the MPs can't make a decision, put it to the people. So the ref should be on the 3 choices.

I imagine a lot of people will be Remain as 1 and nothing as 2, or Leave as 1 and nothing as 2. The question is whether enough people will vote Remain to give a win after 1 round...

[Which Tyler]

Do you you have any evidence for this?

As for Brexiteers compromising, I’ll stick to the line that they won so shouldn’t have to compromise. It was a binary referendum, after all.

Tbh, I was just talking about MPs (if you knew this, I’d love to see your evidence).

That it has become a fuck up is on Remainers as well as Brexiteers. I doubt both sides would have become as entrenched as they have if Remain MPs had worked constructively towards enacting the result of the referendum. We’d probably be serenely sailing towards Common Market 2.0 if they had. As it is, there has been a very obvious sense that a large number were looking to overturn the result from day 1.

of course not, that's why I said "I think"
Yes, the referendum was binary for in or out of the EU, it was anything but binary on what form of leave was voted for, it literally covered everything from Norway++ through to No Deal. I have plenty of proof that the No Deal Brexiteers haven't budged an inch.
I was talking about both MPs and the publication large. The only MPs I'm aware of who were remain and were never willing to give leave a chance were the Lib Dems who stood on a manifesto of exactly that. Have you any proof of any others who were always unwilling to compromise?
Bollocks has it. This fuckhp is entirely on May's head, ably helped by the Tory party, and crosses both sides of the leave/remain divide.

[Puja]

Yep. No way this would be allowed. I think we’re heading for double whammy of a second ref with Remain and whatever the MPs decide on next week on the ballot paper, with the possibility the WA will be on there as well (not that I can see the need, Common Mrkt 2.0 is WA lite). That will drive the Brexiteers mental (rightly) and we’ll still have to go through the hell of another ref.

If we're going to do a second ref, then it surely has to be a preference one with Remain, Withdrawal Agreement, and No Deal on there. That way we can actually see if "The Will Of The People" (TM) can get a majority for one of those on first and second choice votes.

Puja

I doubt parliament will allow no deal on to the ballot paper. The only reason to have a second ref is to try to overturn the first, not to enable a hard Brexit.

I'd say the only reason to have a second ref is to get an actual decision out of "The Will Of The People" (TM) rather than arguing about what it means. It seems pointless to do it if one of the popular options isn't on there.

Puja

[Banquo]

The 'people' fckd up a very simple binary question , how on earth would they cope with three options, and a transfer vote. I'm not joking, much.

[Mellsblue]

Do you you have any evidence for this?

As for Brexiteers compromising, I’ll stick to the line that they won so shouldn’t have to compromise. It was a binary referendum, after all.

Tbh, I was just talking about MPs (if you knew this, I’d love to see your evidence).

That it has become a fuck up is on Remainers as well as Brexiteers. I doubt both sides would have become as entrenched as they have if Remain MPs had worked constructively towards enacting the result of the referendum. We’d probably be serenely sailing towards Common Market 2.0 if they had. As it is, there has been a very obvious sense that a large number were looking to overturn the result from day 1.

of course not, that's why I said "I think"
Yes, the referendum was binary for in or out of the EU, it was anything but binary on what form of leave was voted for, it literally covered everything from Norway++ through to No Deal. I have plenty of proof that the No Deal Brexiteers haven't budged an inch.
I was talking about both MPs and the publication large. The only MPs I'm aware of who were remain and were never willing to give leave a chance were the Lib Dems who stood on a manifesto of exactly that. Have you any proof of any others who were always unwilling to compromise?
Bollocks has it. This fuckhp is entirely on May's head, ably helped by the Tory party, and crosses both sides of the leave/remain divide.

The leave campaign was clearly based on an end to free movement, no EUCJ and the ability to strike trade deals. That points to a very clear version of Brexit to me, not that I agree with it.
If you think this fuck up is entirely on May and the Tory party then you don’t follow politics closely enough or fully understand it, and/or you’re wilfully blind because you agree with the Remainers.
I’d agree the some Brexiteers haven’t budged and inch but I’d also point to plenty of Remainers that haven’t budged an inch. As I’ve says from the start, very few people have come out of this well.
If you think only Lib Dem MPs haven’t been willing to give Brexit a chance then I’ll refer you back to the bit about you not following politics closely enough.

[Mellsblue]

If we're going to do a second ref, then it surely has to be a preference one with Remain, Withdrawal Agreement, and No Deal on there. That way we can actually see if "The Will Of The People" (TM) can get a majority for one of those on first and second choice votes.

Puja

I doubt parliament will allow no deal on to the ballot paper. The only reason to have a second ref is to try to overturn the first, not to enable a hard Brexit.

Surely the point of a ref is to remove a block from Parliament...if the MPs can't make a decision, put it to the people. So the ref should be on the 3 choices.

I imagine a lot of people will be Remain as 1 and nothing as 2, or Leave as 1 and nothing as 2. The question is whether enough people will vote Remain to give a win after 1 round...

Why is there a block? I’d suggest that a good deal of it is to get us back to a second referendum to try to overturn the first.
Just look at which option received the most ‘yes’ votes in the indicative vote debacle.