Brexit delayed

[Sandydragon]

I'm hoping it becomes a transient grouping to bring soft Brexit or even no Brexit. Then they can fade into the ether with their unelectable neoliberal guff.

Unelectable? A proven track record suggests otherwise.

[Zhivago]

I'm hoping it becomes a transient grouping to bring soft Brexit or even no Brexit. Then they can fade into the ether with their unelectable neoliberal guff.

Unelectable? A proven track record suggests otherwise.

Past performance is not indicative of future results

[Sandydragon]

I'm hoping it becomes a transient grouping to bring soft Brexit or even no Brexit. Then they can fade into the ether with their unelectable neoliberal guff.

Unelectable? A proven track record suggests otherwise.

Past performance is not indicative of future results

Perhaps not. But Corbyn left wing agenda had a open goal at the last election and still lost.

Times are odd at the moment and people are voting for the extremes in greater numbers. That won’t last.

[Stones of granite]

dodgy

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rces-claim

Black propaganda more like. Expect more of this kind of vague allegation from Labour’s dirty tricks department in the very near future.

[canta_brian]

“Senior Tory MP Dominic Grieve has said he will also leave if there's a no-deal Brexit.”

Ffs, grow a pair. If you oppose a no deal brexit, waiting until it has already happened and then leaving achieves fuck all.

[Sandydragon]

dodgy

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rces-claim

Black propaganda more like. Expect more of this kind of vague allegation from Labour’s dirty tricks department in the very near future.

Quite possibly. Anyone else find it a bit much for Corbyn to demand that his MPs support their 2017 manifesto when he made a political career out of opposing his party’s manifestos?

[Stones of granite]

dodgy

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rces-claim

Black propaganda more like. Expect more of this kind of vague allegation from Labour’s dirty tricks department in the very near future.

Quite possibly. Anyone else find it a bit much for Corbyn to demand that his MPs support their 2017 manifesto when he made a political career out of opposing his party’s manifestos?

Nothing in the story adds up. There is 2-layer security on the Contact Creator software, it requires a handful of keystrokes by an admin to block access to someone, it doesn't require to be "shut down".
Also, attempted access in this way is illegal, so it makes no sense that the alleged perpetrator hasn't been named, or their details with accompanying system logs as evidence, handed over to the Police.

Vague allegations of wrongdoing without any substantiation - a standard tool in the Political toolbox of mischief making.

[Mikey Brown]

Any Lib Dems joined yet?

Are any of them actually alive?

I heard from one of them just the other day so yes

But more importantly the letter from those leaving the Conservative party starts Dear Prime minister and ends yours sincerely, is PM a name or should that not end faithfully, or is it sincerely as to end a letter saying you're deserting someone faithfully would be absurd?

Finally someone addressing the elephant in the room.

Keep fighting the good fight, sir.

[Sandydragon]

Black propaganda more like. Expect more of this kind of vague allegation from Labour’s dirty tricks department in the very near future.

Quite possibly. Anyone else find it a bit much for Corbyn to demand that his MPs support their 2017 manifesto when he made a political career out of opposing his party’s manifestos?

Nothing in the story adds up. There is 2-layer security on the Contact Creator software, it requires a handful of keystrokes by an admin to block access to someone, it doesn't require to be "shut down".
Also, attempted access in this way is illegal, so it makes no sense that the alleged perpetrator hasn't been named, or their details with accompanying system logs as evidence, handed over to the Police.

Vague allegations of wrongdoing without any substantiation - a standard tool in the Political toolbox of mischief making.

Exactly. Unless it’s a very badly designed system, removing access should be child’s play.

[Banquo]

dodgy

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rces-claim

Black propaganda more like. Expect more of this kind of vague allegation from Labour’s dirty tricks department in the very near future.

Momemtum and odious Owen were all over Twitter with pre-prepared smears against the departing MPs within minutes of the announcement. What’s interesting is that the Labour leavers seemed gutted to be going, and have been traduced by party members—- whereas the Tory leavers seem overwhelmingly happy, wanting to wreck the Tory party (unlike the Labour leavers who just want rid of jazz’s), yet no one from the Tories is giving them a hard time. Tells me the Labour machine is much more organised and aggressive.

[Digby]

Labour lose another MP and Theresa is facing a backlash from moderates in her party, both leavers and remainers. Neither Jeremy nor Theresa are offering the people a vote on what's essentially an impasse

Whether Theresa now breaks her word on having meaningful vote next week given the moderates looking to moderate we'll have to wait and see. It seems likely when her only political move so far has been kicking the can down the road

[Digby]

Ivan Rogers has an essay in the Times today, I'm torn between describing it as excellent and it merely stating the bleeding obvious

[Banquo]

Ivan Rogers has an essay in the Times today, I'm torn between describing it as excellent and it merely stating the bleeding obvious

I still remain flabbergasted with the sheer quantity of Leave voters who face to face and on line repeat and seemingly believe the mantras of 'no deal is fine', 'wto it is then', 'project fear still going', 'if only we had negotiators who were pro leave we'd be fine'....FFS. Not one will admit their vote was wrong, not one will accept the consequences or 'own' their vote. I despair.

[Digby]

Ivan Rogers has an essay in the Times today, I'm torn between describing it as excellent and it merely stating the bleeding obvious

I still remain flabbergasted with the sheer quantity of Leave voters who face to face and on line repeat and seemingly believe the mantras of 'no deal is fine', 'wto it is then', 'project fear still going', 'if only we had negotiators who were pro leave we'd be fine'....FFS. Not one will admit their vote was wrong, not one will accept the consequences or 'own' their vote. I despair.

Rogers as an ardent remainer isn't taking the view we should do other than leave. More he thinks the leavers and government need to decide on their political and economic choices accepting the reality a bad deal is better than no deal, but we'd get a better deal if we could be mature enough to concede any new deal will be economically worse than our present situation and then actually get on and deliver it.

And no deal is not fine, no deal is so damaging I'm almost glad we're now of the view those seeking serious damage to our national security can be stripped of their citizenship, leave means leave has a certain charm in some contexts

[Banquo]

Ivan Rogers has an essay in the Times today, I'm torn between describing it as excellent and it merely stating the bleeding obvious

I still remain flabbergasted with the sheer quantity of Leave voters who face to face and on line repeat and seemingly believe the mantras of 'no deal is fine', 'wto it is then', 'project fear still going', 'if only we had negotiators who were pro leave we'd be fine'....FFS. Not one will admit their vote was wrong, not one will accept the consequences or 'own' their vote. I despair.

Rogers as an ardent remainer isn't taking the view we should do other than leave. More he thinks the leavers and government need to decide on their political and economic choices accepting the reality a bad deal is better than no deal, but we'd get a better deal if we could be mature enough to concede any new deal will be economically worse than our present situation and then actually get on and deliver it.

And no deal is not fine, no deal is so damaging I'm almost glad we're now of the view those seeking serious damage to our national security can be stripped of their citizenship, leave means leave has a certain charm in some contexts

Its hardly rocket science as you said, but even the basics seem beyond the leave voters

[Mellsblue]

I still remain flabbergasted with the sheer quantity of Leave voters who face to face and on line repeat and seemingly believe the mantras of 'no deal is fine', 'wto it is then', 'project fear still going', 'if only we had negotiators who were pro leave we'd be fine'....FFS. Not one will admit their vote was wrong, not one will accept the consequences or 'own' their vote. I despair.

Rogers as an ardent remainer isn't taking the view we should do other than leave. More he thinks the leavers and government need to decide on their political and economic choices accepting the reality a bad deal is better than no deal, but we'd get a better deal if we could be mature enough to concede any new deal will be economically worse than our present situation and then actually get on and deliver it.

And no deal is not fine, no deal is so damaging I'm almost glad we're now of the view those seeking serious damage to our national security can be stripped of their citizenship, leave means leave has a certain charm in some contexts

Its hardly rocket science as you said, but even the basics seem beyond the leave voters

I don’t blame Leave voters for doubling down when told they are wrong/racist/thick etc etc. As for us heading towards an omnishambles, that’s as much on ardent Remainers not accepting the result as on those Brexiteers heading for a special place in hell. I had drinks on Friday of last week with someone, who campaigned heavily for Remain, who is pretty central to negotiations and they place considerably more blame on ardent Remain MPs than they do on the ERG, even though they are pretty close to Tusk’s sentiments on them.

[Banquo]

Rogers as an ardent remainer isn't taking the view we should do other than leave. More he thinks the leavers and government need to decide on their political and economic choices accepting the reality a bad deal is better than no deal, but we'd get a better deal if we could be mature enough to concede any new deal will be economically worse than our present situation and then actually get on and deliver it.

And no deal is not fine, no deal is so damaging I'm almost glad we're now of the view those seeking serious damage to our national security can be stripped of their citizenship, leave means leave has a certain charm in some contexts

Its hardly rocket science as you said, but even the basics seem beyond the leave voters

I don’t blame Leave voters for doubling down when told they are wrong/racist/thick etc etc. As for us heading towards an omnishambles, that’s as much on ardent Remainers not accepting the result as on those Brexiteers heading for a special place in hell. I had drinks on Friday of last week with someone, who campaigned heavily for Remain, who is pretty central to negotiations and they place considerably more blame on ardent Remain MPs than they do on the ERG, even though they are pretty close to Tusk’s sentiments on them.

Why? Why should they be allowed to keep talking crap? I totally agree that categorising as if all are 'racist/thick' has been very unhelpful and indeed is part of why the vote happens, but for the majority to keep trotting out the same crap about WTO, 'what's the problem with no-deal' leave means leave, is extremely blameworthy.....if they'd accept the consequences and necessary compromises, then we might be a bit further ahead than we are.

I do agree ardent Remainers present an issue, but what do you blame them for specifically in the omnishambles.

[Mellsblue]

Its hardly rocket science as you said, but even the basics seem beyond the leave voters

I don’t blame Leave voters for doubling down when told they are wrong/racist/thick etc etc. As for us heading towards an omnishambles, that’s as much on ardent Remainers not accepting the result as on those Brexiteers heading for a special place in hell. I had drinks on Friday of last week with someone, who campaigned heavily for Remain, who is pretty central to negotiations and they place considerably more blame on ardent Remain MPs than they do on the ERG, even though they are pretty close to Tusk’s sentiments on them.

Why? Why should they be allowed to keep talking crap? I totally agree that categorising as if all are 'racist/thick' has been very unhelpful and indeed is part of why the vote happens, but for the majority to keep trotting out the same crap about WTO, 'what's the problem with no-deal' leave means leave, is extremely blameworthy.....if they'd accept the consequences and necessary compromises, then we might be a bit further ahead than we are.

I do agree ardent Remainers present an issue, but what do you blame them for specifically in the omnishambles.

I don’t think they should and I don’t agree with them, I just said I don’t really blame them in the face of such accusations.
Difficult to go in to negotiations when a lot of those on your side aren’t actually on your side. The EU have made a big deal of their unity, and rightly so. In parliament there are plenty more Remainers refusing to accept the result than there are in the ERG. If they accepted Brexit and were engaged in bring it to fruition then the ERG would be an irrelevance.

[Banquo]

I don’t blame Leave voters for doubling down when told they are wrong/racist/thick etc etc. As for us heading towards an omnishambles, that’s as much on ardent Remainers not accepting the result as on those Brexiteers heading for a special place in hell. I had drinks on Friday of last week with someone, who campaigned heavily for Remain, who is pretty central to negotiations and they place considerably more blame on ardent Remain MPs than they do on the ERG, even though they are pretty close to Tusk’s sentiments on them.

Why? Why should they be allowed to keep talking crap? I totally agree that categorising as if all are 'racist/thick' has been very unhelpful and indeed is part of why the vote happens, but for the majority to keep trotting out the same crap about WTO, 'what's the problem with no-deal' leave means leave, is extremely blameworthy.....if they'd accept the consequences and necessary compromises, then we might be a bit further ahead than we are.

I do agree ardent Remainers present an issue, but what do you blame them for specifically in the omnishambles.

I don’t think they should and I don’t agree with them, I just said I don’t really blame them in the face of such accusations.
Difficult to go in to negotiations when a lot of those on your side aren’t actually on your side. The EU have made a big deal of their unity, and rightly so. In parliament there are plenty more Remainers refusing to accept the result than there are in the ERG. If they accepted Brexit and were engaged in bring it to fruition then the ERG would be an irrelevance.

You don't blame em for being childish? Ok. On parliament I suppose you mean there should be a cross party movement to get a deal over the line?

[Mellsblue]

Why? Why should they be allowed to keep talking crap? I totally agree that categorising as if all are 'racist/thick' has been very unhelpful and indeed is part of why the vote happens, but for the majority to keep trotting out the same crap about WTO, 'what's the problem with no-deal' leave means leave, is extremely blameworthy.....if they'd accept the consequences and necessary compromises, then we might be a bit further ahead than we are.

I do agree ardent Remainers present an issue, but what do you blame them for specifically in the omnishambles.

I don’t think they should and I don’t agree with them, I just said I don’t really blame them in the face of such accusations.
Difficult to go in to negotiations when a lot of those on your side aren’t actually on your side. The EU have made a big deal of their unity, and rightly so. In parliament there are plenty more Remainers refusing to accept the result than there are in the ERG. If they accepted Brexit and were engaged in bring it to fruition then the ERG would be an irrelevance.

You don't blame em for being childish? Ok. On parliament I suppose you mean there should be a cross party movement to get a deal over the line?

Everyone has been childish. It’s ****ing embarrassing.
Not a cross party movement, no. Just ardent Remainers accepting it is going to happen and not try to frustrate the process. If those to the left of the Cons worked constructively the ERG would be an irrelevance.
Beyond the parliamentary arithmetic, a Parliament united in implementing Brexit gives Robbins and May are far stronger hand.

[Banquo]

I don’t think they should and I don’t agree with them, I just said I don’t really blame them in the face of such accusations.
Difficult to go in to negotiations when a lot of those on your side aren’t actually on your side. The EU have made a big deal of their unity, and rightly so. In parliament there are plenty more Remainers refusing to accept the result than there are in the ERG. If they accepted Brexit and were engaged in bring it to fruition then the ERG would be an irrelevance.

You don't blame em for being childish? Ok. On parliament I suppose you mean there should be a cross party movement to get a deal over the line?

Everyone has been childish. It’s ****ing embarrassing.
Not a cross party movement, no. Just ardent Remainers accepting it is going to happen and not try to frustrate the process. If those to the left of the Cons worked constructively the ERG would be an irrelevance.
Beyond the parliamentary arithmetic, a Parliament united in implementing Brexit gives Robbins and May are far stronger hand.

Not following your arithmetic there? Without ERG you need Labour support?

[Mellsblue]

You don't blame em for being childish? Ok. On parliament I suppose you mean there should be a cross party movement to get a deal over the line?

Everyone has been childish. It’s ****ing embarrassing.
Not a cross party movement, no. Just ardent Remainers accepting it is going to happen and not try to frustrate the process. If those to the left of the Cons worked constructively the ERG would be an irrelevance.
Beyond the parliamentary arithmetic, a Parliament united in implementing Brexit gives Robbins and May are far stronger hand.

Not following your arithmetic there? Without ERG you need Labour support?

Depends how many of the ERG you think you can peel off. There are only a handful who are truly nuts probably not many more than pro-Brexit Lab. May would obviously need Lab votes but it’s a handful, not what I would call a cross party movement.

[Banquo]

Everyone has been childish. It’s ****ing embarrassing.
Not a cross party movement, no. Just ardent Remainers accepting it is going to happen and not try to frustrate the process. If those to the left of the Cons worked constructively the ERG would be an irrelevance.
Beyond the parliamentary arithmetic, a Parliament united in implementing Brexit gives Robbins and May are far stronger hand.

Not following your arithmetic there? Without ERG you need Labour support?

Depends how many of the ERG you think you can peel off. There are only a handful who are truly nuts probably not many more than pro-Brexit Lab. May would obviously need Lab votes but it’s a handful, not what I would call a cross party movement.

I think you underestimate the size of the ERG, and any movement from Labour is cross party . Frankly, once the 2017 election disaster had happened, what is now happening was predictable. Whole thing is stupid.

[Mellsblue]

Not following your arithmetic there? Without ERG you need Labour support?

Depends how many of the ERG you think you can peel off. There are only a handful who are truly nuts probably no ot many more than pro-Brexit Lab. May would obviously need Lab votes but it’s a handful, not what I would call a cross party movement.

I think you underestimate the size of the ERG, and any movement from Labour is cross party . Frankly, once the 2017 election disaster had happened, what is now happening was predictable. Whole thing is stupid.

When you said ‘movement’ I thought you meant as in an organised body of people, rather than movement from some Lab waiverers.
I don’t underestimate the size of the ERG but you may overestimate how many nutters there are/were in it. There are a lot who would have followed Gove, though he’s not ERG, if given reason to. From what I’ve read and heard, including from one source very initimate with it all, most of the ERG have only gone completely mad in the final death throes. Things have just become slowly more entrenched on their side as they’ve been sidelined by May, ie Davis and Raab, they see people trying to frustrate Brexit, eg second ref and europhiles having cosy meetings with Barnier etc. Now that they see a chance to really stick it up everyone they are trying to take it. That also goes the other way, as they’ve moved more to no deal so Remainers have become more militant.
Couldn’t agree more with your last two sentences. I can’t think of one person who comes out of this whole thing with credit.

[Sandydragon]

There’s about 40 hardish core ERG members plus hangers on.