Brexit delayed

[Puja]

Do you know what I don't get? How the SNP can be pro-independence and anti-Brexit. I mean, I can understand both angles but not at the same time. Surely if you're annoyed about not being independent, being yoked to a central government that will always tend to be more right wing than you are because there are a greater number of people in other states in the union which are significantly more right wing than you, and you're willing to crash your economy, alienate your biggest trading partner, give up the international clout that comes from being within the union, create borders and tariffs that you need to trade across, have to duplicate a whole infrastructure that was previously covered by the union, all in the name of being able to do your own thing and strike out on your own, you should be all over Brexit?

Puja

[Zhivago]

Do you know what I don't get? How the SNP can be pro-independence and anti-Brexit. I mean, I can understand both angles but not at the same time. Surely if you're annoyed about not being independent, being yoked to a central government that will always tend to be more right wing than you are because there are a greater number of people in other states in the union which are significantly more right wing than you, and you're willing to crash your economy, alienate your biggest trading partner, give up the international clout that comes from being within the union, create borders and tariffs that you need to trade across, have to duplicate a whole infrastructure that was previously covered by the union, all in the name of being able to do your own thing and strike out on your own, you should be all over Brexit?

Puja

EU doesn't steal their natural resources, England does. Or something.

[Puja]

Do you know what I don't get? How the SNP can be pro-independence and anti-Brexit. I mean, I can understand both angles but not at the same time. Surely if you're annoyed about not being independent, being yoked to a central government that will always tend to be more right wing than you are because there are a greater number of people in other states in the union which are significantly more right wing than you, and you're willing to crash your economy, alienate your biggest trading partner, give up the international clout that comes from being within the union, create borders and tariffs that you need to trade across, have to duplicate a whole infrastructure that was previously covered by the union, all in the name of being able to do your own thing and strike out on your own, you should be all over Brexit?

Puja

EU doesn't steal their natural resources, England does. Or something.

I suspect there are fishermen in Peterhead who might dispute that one!

Puja

[Stones of granite]

Do you know what I don't get? How the SNP can be pro-independence and anti-Brexit. I mean, I can understand both angles but not at the same time. Surely if you're annoyed about not being independent, being yoked to a central government that will always tend to be more right wing than you are because there are a greater number of people in other states in the union which are significantly more right wing than you, and you're willing to crash your economy, alienate your biggest trading partner, give up the international clout that comes from being within the union, create borders and tariffs that you need to trade across, have to duplicate a whole infrastructure that was previously covered by the union, all in the name of being able to do your own thing and strike out on your own, you should be all over Brexit?

Puja

You are conflating separate issues. At its most basic, the principal issue is one of national sovereignty. The UK is withdrawing from the EU simply by sticking an article 50 notice in and leaving. Scotland cannot withdraw from the UK by giving notice to the Act of Union. Once this basic issue is resolved, the other things like who Scotland enters a trade partnership with, or which economic/political unions it joins/leaves can be discussed and voted on by the Scottish people. In the meantime Scots just have to suck it up and do what the English decide.

[Mellsblue]

Do you know what I don't get? How the SNP can be pro-independence and anti-Brexit. I mean, I can understand both angles but not at the same time. Surely if you're annoyed about not being independent, being yoked to a central government that will always tend to be more right wing than you are because there are a greater number of people in other states in the union which are significantly more right wing than you, and you're willing to crash your economy, alienate your biggest trading partner, give up the international clout that comes from being within the union, create borders and tariffs that you need to trade across, have to duplicate a whole infrastructure that was previously covered by the union, all in the name of being able to do your own thing and strike out on your own, you should be all over Brexit?

Puja

You are conflating separate issues. At its most basic, the principal issue is one of national sovereignty. The UK is withdrawing from the EU simply by sticking an article 50 notice in and leaving. Scotland cannot withdraw from the UK by giving notice to the Act of Union. Once this basic issue is resolved, the other things like who Scotland enters a trade partnership with, or which economic/political unions it joins/leaves can be discussed and voted on by the Scottish people. In the meantime Scots just have to suck it up and do what the English decide.

Independence for Yorkshire, cos we have to suck up what everyone else decides. Also, independence for the south-east as they subsidise everybody else. Finally, independence for every region because they either have to suck up decisions made by everyone else - whilst actually getting most of what they want - or subsidise everyone else. It’ll be the biggly-est, most stable genius independence policy ever.

[Zhivago]

Do you know what I don't get? How the SNP can be pro-independence and anti-Brexit. I mean, I can understand both angles but not at the same time. Surely if you're annoyed about not being independent, being yoked to a central government that will always tend to be more right wing than you are because there are a greater number of people in other states in the union which are significantly more right wing than you, and you're willing to crash your economy, alienate your biggest trading partner, give up the international clout that comes from being within the union, create borders and tariffs that you need to trade across, have to duplicate a whole infrastructure that was previously covered by the union, all in the name of being able to do your own thing and strike out on your own, you should be all over Brexit?

Puja

You are conflating separate issues. At its most basic, the principal issue is one of national sovereignty. The UK is withdrawing from the EU simply by sticking an article 50 notice in and leaving. Scotland cannot withdraw from the UK by giving notice to the Act of Union. Once this basic issue is resolved, the other things like who Scotland enters a trade partnership with, or which economic/political unions it joins/leaves can be discussed and voted on by the Scottish people. In the meantime Scots just have to suck it up and do what the English decide.

Independence for Yorkshire, cos we have to suck up what everyone else decides. Also, independence for the south-east as they subsidise everybody else. Finally, independence for every region because they either have to suck up decisions made by everyone else - whilst actually getting most of what they want - or subsidise everyone else. It’ll be the biggly-est, most stable genius independence policy ever.

Typical English arrogance, belittling the Scottish nation by comparing them to Yorkshire. Not so different to Putin saying that Ukraine isn't a real country.

[Mellsblue]

You are conflating separate issues. At its most basic, the principal issue is one of national sovereignty. The UK is withdrawing from the EU simply by sticking an article 50 notice in and leaving. Scotland cannot withdraw from the UK by giving notice to the Act of Union. Once this basic issue is resolved, the other things like who Scotland enters a trade partnership with, or which economic/political unions it joins/leaves can be discussed and voted on by the Scottish people. In the meantime Scots just have to suck it up and do what the English decide.

Independence for Yorkshire, cos we have to suck up what everyone else decides. Also, independence for the south-east as they subsidise everybody else. Finally, independence for every region because they either have to suck up decisions made by everyone else - whilst actually getting most of what they want - or subsidise everyone else. It’ll be the biggly-est, most stable genius independence policy ever.

Typical English arrogance, belittling the Scottish nation by comparing them to Yorkshire. Not so different to Putin saying that Ukraine isn't a real country.

Nobody is falling for that WUM.

[morepork]

Go on boy, suck. You know how to suck don't you?

[Zhivago]

I've just been watching Question Time, and it's shocking how many people seem to want no deal (judging by the clapping). I'm even starting to change my mind on it. I think now that Britain needs no deal. If only to teach people to listen to experts again.

[Digby]

Independence for Yorkshire, cos we have to suck up what everyone else decides. Also, independence for the south-east as they subsidise everybody else. Finally, independence for every region because they either have to suck up decisions made by everyone else - whilst actually getting most of what they want - or subsidise everyone else. It’ll be the biggly-est, most stable genius independence policy ever.

Typical English arrogance, belittling the Scottish nation by comparing them to Yorkshire. Not so different to Putin saying that Ukraine isn't a real country.

Nobody is falling for that WUM.

Quite, Scotland is much nicer

[Puja]

I've just been watching Question Time, and it's shocking how many people seem to want no deal (judging by the clapping). I'm even starting to change my mind on it. I think now that Britain needs no deal. If only to teach people to listen to experts again.

There was an article in the Guardian about that the other day, saying that when people hear "No Deal", they think about it like selling a car - if someone offers you a crap price and you say no deal, you just don't sell and everything goes back to where it was before. The average person doesn't understand (and have been willfully encouraged in that misunderstanding by pondscum like Johnson) that No Deal doesn't mean no movement, it means a lot of fairly important things go away.

If I didn't live here and didn't rely on a job that relies fairly heavily on the economy not shitting the bed, I'd want a No Deal to teach us a lesson as well. This has got to be insufferable for every other European country.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

Still Labour officially keeps its distance. This surely demonstrates that Corbyns isn’t interested in this. If we get a no deal Brexit and the conservatives can be blamed then so much the better. I’ve argued for a while that Corbin is a poor leader and could have presented an alternative, ready for Mays obvious impending failure. I don’t even blame him for trying the vote of no confidence route, it was the obvious play.

But now is the time for the Labour leader to show some leadership. May has belatedly asked for cross path talks. It’s easy to at insulted that these didn’t happen sooner and they probably should have. But time is short and the British people want their MPs to sort this out. But instead of engaging, the Labour leadership is refusing to do so based on technical points. They also may call for further votes of no confidence. Contrast this with the actions of the Lib Dem’s and SNP who are seizing the opportunity. The Labour leader needs to grow up or it will soon dawn on his followers that he really is a Brexiteer and not the messiah they were looking for. It will also increase the number of Labour MPs who are just ignoring him and speaking to the government in private.

[Digby]

I did wonder how he'd avoid getting behind another referendum, now we know

[Zhivago]

Still Labour officially keeps its distance. This surely demonstrates that Corbyns isn’t interested in this. If we get a no deal Brexit and the conservatives can be blamed then so much the better. I’ve argued for a while that Corbin is a poor leader and could have presented an alternative, ready for Mays obvious impending failure. I don’t even blame him for trying the vote of no confidence route, it was the obvious play.

But now is the time for the Labour leader to show some leadership. May has belatedly asked for cross path talks. It’s easy to at insulted that these didn’t happen sooner and they probably should have. But time is short and the British people want their MPs to sort this out. But instead of engaging, the Labour leadership is refusing to do so based on technical points. They also may call for further votes of no confidence. Contrast this with the actions of the Lib Dem’s and SNP who are seizing the opportunity. The Labour leader needs to grow up or it will soon dawn on his followers that he really is a Brexiteer and not the messiah they were looking for. It will also increase the number of Labour MPs who are just ignoring him and speaking to the government in private.

What's the point of negotiating with someone who refuses to compromise?

It seems like Britain is destined to have the pain of no deal. So be it.

[Digby]

What's the point of negotiating with someone who refuses to compromise?

He is sadly the leader of the official opposition and thus May had to invite him, but it's not a point without merit

[Zhivago]

What's the point of negotiating with someone who refuses to compromise?

He is sadly the leader of the official opposition and thus May had to invite him, but it's not a point without merit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... compromise

[Mellsblue]

He was invited, both sides are on record saying as such, hence the ‘no deal off the table demand’. The invite has since been rescinded.
Interestingly, Labour is being represented but by Benn and Cooper. The Lib Dems and SNP are also there.
It seems, though, that they are all in the wrong and Corbyn is right.

[Zhivago]

He was invited, both sides are on record saying as such, hence the ‘no deal off the table demand’. The invite has since been rescinded.
Interestingly, Labour is being represented but by Benn and Cooper. The Lib Dems and SNP are also there.
It seems, though, that they are all in the wrong and Corbyn is right.

In the beginning, May excluded Corbyn from talks. Hardly a constructive move.

[Mellsblue]

He was invited, both sides are on record saying as such, hence the ‘no deal off the table demand’. The invite has since been rescinded.
Interestingly, Labour is being represented but by Benn and Cooper. The Lib Dems and SNP are also there.
It seems, though, that they are all in the wrong and Corbyn is right.

In the beginning, May excluded Corbyn from talks. Hardly a constructive move.

Because he put his own silly redline down that he knew May couldn’t meet. He’ll do anything to avoid putting his Brexit beliefs on the line.
Don’t worry, Labour are there. It’s just the grown-ups who have been invited and accepted the invitation.

[Zhivago]

He was invited, both sides are on record saying as such, hence the ‘no deal off the table demand’. The invite has since been rescinded.
Interestingly, Labour is being represented but by Benn and Cooper. The Lib Dems and SNP are also there.
It seems, though, that they are all in the wrong and Corbyn is right.

In the beginning, May excluded Corbyn from talks. Hardly a constructive move.

Because he put his own silly redline down that he knew May couldn’t meet. He’ll do anything to avoid putting his Brexit beliefs on the line.
Don’t worry, Labour are there. It’s just the grown-ups who have been invited and accepted the invitation.

If May hadn't arrogantly called that pointless election, we wouldn't be stuck with this chaotic minority government that can't even pass its core legislation.

[Mellsblue]

In the beginning, May excluded Corbyn from talks. Hardly a constructive move.

Because he put his own silly redline down that he knew May couldn’t meet. He’ll do anything to avoid putting his Brexit beliefs on the line.
Don’t worry, Labour are there. It’s just the grown-ups who have been invited and accepted the invitation.

If May hadn't arrogantly called that pointless election, we wouldn't be stuck with this chaotic minority government that can't even pass its core legislation.

Couldn’t agree more. What’s it got to do with Corbyn ruling himself out of these talks?

[Mellsblue]

That’s quite some volte-face. First we’re slagging off May for not letting Corbyn dictate terms of discussion and despite never having actually set out what his aims would be and now we’re saying that he shouldn’t ‘help’ at all despite calling for cross party talks for months and months.
The cult still runs strong.

[Digby]

He's not helping because of some stories in the press?

He should be helping because it's in the national interest, he's not helping because he thinks a nation in trouble makes it easier for him to claim power and he views the EU as the Imperialist capitalistic enemy

May as with Corbyn is equally culpable for establishing red lines after being crushed in the vote

[paddy no 11]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opin ... mpire.html

Just dropping this here no offence

[Zhivago]

He's not helping because of some stories in the press?

He should be helping because it's in the national interest, he's not helping because he thinks a nation in trouble makes it easier for him to claim power and he views the EU as the Imperialist capitalistic enemy

May as with Corbyn is equally culpable for establishing red lines after being crushed in the vote

Simple really, take no deal off the table and then they can talk. May is too up herself to agree of course. She'd rather the country crashes and burns than compromise on her agenda. That's the kind of Tory arrogance that's going to ruin the country.